Greece, what the fuck?

[Horatio Parker]

You've not fully contemplated the apples/oranges universe. When you do, you'll realize the situations cannot be compared.

Seems to be the reasoning.

Not sure how the Marshall plan is relevant since we are dealing with a member of a currency union's irresponsible borrowing not the aftermath of a world war.

I guess if the logic that irresponsible borrowing is best solved by even more irresponsible borrowing were applied, the Marshall plan would have been letting Germany get back on its feet by invading Poland.

So an aggressive war is responsible borrowing. Stupid Greeks...

 

[untermensche]

You've not fully contemplated the apples/oranges universe. When you do, you'll realize the situations cannot be compared.

Seems to be the reasoning.

Not sure how the Marshall plan is relevant since we are dealing with a member of a currency union's irresponsible borrowing not the aftermath of a world war.

I guess if the logic that irresponsible borrowing is best solved by even more irresponsible borrowing were applied, the Marshall plan would have been letting Germany get back on its feet by invading Poland.

Yes those lenders were forced to make irresponsible loans by Greek voodoo.

I thought this was capitalism?

When a bank makes a bad loan under capitalism the bank must pay a price to prevent other banks from doing the same.

But here we want the lenders to be rewarded for their bad loans, just as the US banks were rewarded for causing a worldwide recession that is the real cause of the Greek defaults.

 

[untermensche]

Not sure how the Marshall plan is relevant since we are dealing with a member of a currency union's irresponsible borrowing not the aftermath of a world war.

I guess if the logic that irresponsible borrowing is best solved by even more irresponsible borrowing were applied, the Marshall plan would have been letting Germany get back on its feet by invading Poland.

So an aggressive war is responsible borrowing. Stupid Greeks...

Nobody is claiming the cause of the economic collapse is the same.

Some are merely pointing out how the Germans were treated when they caused their own economic collapse by waging a losing war as opposed to the Greeks who's economic collapse was caused by the world-wide recession caused by irresponsible mortgage lending by the banks, many of which were US banks.

 

[Jayjay]

Not sure how the Marshall plan is relevant since we are dealing with a member of a currency union's irresponsible borrowing not the aftermath of a world war.

I guess if the logic that irresponsible borrowing is best solved by even more irresponsible borrowing were applied, the Marshall plan would have been letting Germany get back on its feet by invading Poland.

Yes those lenders were forced to make irresponsible loans by Greek voodoo.

I thought this was capitalism?

When a bank makes a bad loan under capitalism the bank must pay a price to prevent other banks from doing the same.

But here we want the lenders to be rewarded for their bad loans, just as the US banks were rewarded for causing a worldwide recession that is the real cause of the Greek defaults.

That would be "wanted", in past tense. The banks got their money when the Eurogroup bought the bad loans from them. Now the creditors are countries, who have more political motivations than financial.

 

[untermensche]

Yes those lenders were forced to make irresponsible loans by Greek voodoo.

I thought this was capitalism?

When a bank makes a bad loan under capitalism the bank must pay a price to prevent other banks from doing the same.

But here we want the lenders to be rewarded for their bad loans, just as the US banks were rewarded for causing a worldwide recession that is the real cause of the Greek defaults.

That would be "wanted", in past tense. The banks got their money when the Eurogroup bought the bad loans from them. Now the creditors are countries, who have more political motivations than financial.

As I said, irresponsible lending was rewarded.

The lender is the party with all the power. If irresponsible loans are made it is entirely the fault of the lender.

 

[Nice Squirrel]

Not sure how the Marshall plan is relevant.

It isn't. It is in response to the World War I reparations red herring and that somehow these reparations are the same thing as what is going on with the Greeks. (And that implied argument that Germany paid them back in good faith over time with no assistance which is demonstratively false.)

 

[tupac chopra]

Exclusive: Yanis Varoufakis opens up about his five month battle to save Greece

In his first interview since resigning, Greece's former Finance Minister says the Eurogroup is “completely and utterly” controlled by Germany, Greece was “set up” and last week’s referendum was wasted

“It’s not that it didn’t go down well – there was point blank refusal to engage in economic arguments. Point blank. You put forward an argument that you’ve really worked on, to make sure it’s logically coherent, and you’re just faced with blank stares. It is as if you haven’t spoken. What you say is independent of what they say. You might as well have sung the Swedish national anthem – you’d have got the same reply.”

 

[Jayjay]

http://talkfreethought.org/showthread.php?5526-Greece-what-the-fuck&p=179882&viewfull=1#post179882

(Although a good article deserves repeating...)

 

[Trausti]

Exclusive: Yanis Varoufakis opens up about his five month battle to save Greece

“It’s not that it didn’t go down well – there was point blank refusal to engage in economic arguments. Point blank. You put forward an argument that you’ve really worked on, to make sure it’s logically coherent, and you’re just faced with blank stares. It is as if you haven’t spoken. What you say is independent of what they say. You might as well have sung the Swedish national anthem – you’d have got the same reply.”

 

[Jayjay]

I'd like to think it went a bit more like this:

[youtube]FHnyQXyuTGY[/youtube]

 

[laughing dog]

Referencing the Marshall Plan is a scheme of misdirection to make apologies for Greek fiscal irresponsibility.

You claimed the Germans did not get any handouts - hence the reference to the Marshall Plan.

 

[4321lynx]

Referencing the Marshall Plan is a scheme of misdirection to make apologies for Greek fiscal irresponsibility.

You claimed the Germans did not get any handouts - hence the reference to the Marshall Plan.

Yes, the whole of Western Europe got the handout of the Marshall Plan, and Eastern Europe would have got it too, but were forbidden from accepting it by their Russian/Soviet masters.
There is a difference between helping countries ruined by war and threatened internally and externally by murderous Marx/Lenin/Stalinist "world paradise" communism, and helping countries ruined by their avaricious desire for a luxurious life to be paid for by other countries.
Sure, the stupid lenders should be made to pay for their incautious avarice, and no doubt they will be made to pay for it sooner rather than later if their demands prove too onerous for the Greeks. What was agreed to, after all, was "just a piece of paper", as the pre-WW II saying went.
And, sure, this is all a demonstration of how the capitalist system's cheat-as-cheat-can "normal business methods" come unstuck when greed becomes excessive and the devil takes not only the hindmost but also the leaders, in this case Germany. Just don't try to tell me that any of the "Real" socialism/communism/syndyco/anarchism is the answer. I am old enough to have experienced much of this on my own skin and the skin of my various relatives. And have seen too many theoretical dreams of socialism, Fabian and revolutionary, come to a bad end at great human cost, to be impressed by left-wing dreamers here, on these threads, spouting nineteenth century phrases and slogans as if these were god's own truths.
The answer? I don't know. But perhaps hard work, law-abiding self-discipline, a modicum of decency and honesty. Perhaps just take a leaf out of the Germans' book or the Israelis' book. With all their faults, and they are many and some of them, though inevitable, are serious, they seem to me worth emulating.

End of my Sermon on the Mound, or something -- (I never knew and still don't know what that Sermon was about).

 

[ksen]

Sure, the stupid lenders should be made to pay for their incautious avarice, and no doubt they will be made to pay for it sooner rather than later if their demands prove too onerous for the Greeks.

The lenders have already been bailed out by the ECB. The current holders of greek debt are not the original lenders of greek debt.

 

[Nice Squirrel]

I wish I could make bad loans and have government bail me out.

 

[ksen]

Those lenders don't look so stupid now.

 

[laughing dog]

Yes, the whole of Western Europe got the handout of the Marshall Plan, and Eastern Europe would have got it too, but were forbidden from accepting it by their Russian/Soviet masters.
There is a difference between helping countries ruined by war and threatened internally and externally by murderous Marx/Lenin/Stalinist "world paradise" communism, and helping countries ruined by their avaricious desire for a luxurious life to be paid for by other countries.....

Not in terms of the economic consequences for the recipients. And, if one really bothered to think about it, the vanquished in WWII caused their own ruin due to their hegemonic, avaricious and racist desire to rule Europe. Your response ignores the basic fact that Germany did receive handouts after WWII in two forms. First, they had their debt cut in half by the Allies. 2nd, they received about 11% of the Marshall Plan funds.

The economic issue in this situation is clear cut. The Greeks have been in a recession and now a depression for over 4 years. They also have an unsustainable debt load. It makes no economic sense to require policies to deepen the depression and increase the unsustainable debt load (the financial demands of the EU).

However, the political issues are pushing the agenda and making all parties act in counter-productive ways. If the EU is serious about being an union, (a big if), it needs to come to grips with flexible mechanisms to deal with such crises that will continue to pop up since monetary synchronization without fiscal synchronization leads to such problems. The EU is a long-run commitment to increasing harmonization among the included countries. This is a large bump in that road. Letting Greece go will cause economic hardship on all parties. And, IMO, create a permanent fracture in the EU. And it would lose stature in the international community. IMO, many people will find it hard to take the EU seriously if there is Grexit. Hell, the EU has no provisions for exits, which means they did not envision such scenarios.

But, in the end, it is up the Europeans to figure this out.

 

[4321lynx]

Yes, the whole of Western Europe got the handout of the Marshall Plan, and Eastern Europe would have got it too, but were forbidden from accepting it by their Russian/Soviet masters.
There is a difference between helping countries ruined by war and threatened internally and externally by murderous Marx/Lenin/Stalinist "world paradise" communism, and helping countries ruined by their avaricious desire for a luxurious life to be paid for by other countries.....

Not in terms of the economic consequences for the recipients. And, if one really bothered to think about it, the vanquished in WWII caused their own ruin due to their hegemonic, avaricious and racist desire to rule Europe. Your response ignores the basic fact that Germany did receive handouts after WWII in two forms. First, they had their debt cut in half by the Allies. 2nd, they received about 11% of the Marshall Plan funds.

The economic issue in this situation is clear cut. The Greeks have been in a recession and now a depression for over 4 years. They also have an unsustainable debt load. It makes no economic sense to require policies to deepen the depression and increase the unsustainable debt load (the financial demands of the EU).

However, the political issues are pushing the agenda and making all parties act in counter-productive ways. If the EU is serious about being an union, (a big if), it needs to come to grips with flexible mechanisms to deal with such crises that will continue to pop up since monetary synchronization without fiscal synchronization leads to such problems. The EU is a long-run commitment to increasing harmonization among the included countries. This is a large bump in that road. Letting Greece go will cause economic hardship on all parties. And, IMO, create a permanent fracture in the EU. And it would lose stature in the international community. IMO, many people will find it hard to take the EU seriously if there is Grexit. Hell, the EU has no provisions for exits, which means they did not envision such scenarios.

But, in the end, it is up the Europeans to figure this out.

Neither did the States have provisions for exit before the Civil War, I think. That was some fracture, but it was cobbled up at great cost in human lives, and maybe in 100 years even the Southern minds will permit it to heal.
The EU is young. Nationalism in Europe dates back to Ancient Athenians vs Persians and then vs Spartans, and will take longer to heal than that US fracture. It is an illness with remittent fever, or intermittent, or something. I do not think it is incurable, but the cure is slow and painful. There are many in Europe and on these forums who conciously or subconciously desire it to fail. let's hope they're proved wrong in the long run, for the sake of future generations.

 

[Sarpedon]

I think it was a mistake to base the EU so heavily on the currency union. Now if the Euro collapses, it will take the EU with it. A real shame.

 

[SimpleDon]

The understanding that I get is that the Germans prevailed. That the Greeks face thirty years of crushing austerity to not pay off the debt. But the Germans forced the Greeks to put up €50 trillion in assets against the debt entered into yesterday.

Reparations for the damages suffered by the German bankers. Presumably, the Greeks called them bad names.

I think it should be obvious now that Germany is still intent on remaking Europe in its image. Now, it is engaged in economic warfare and subterfuge instead of military invasions.

I am wondering if there are not some in Europe who are beginning to regret having Germany in the EU.

I know a lot about the German financial sector, German bankers and German industrialists and their relationship with the CDU, the Christian Democratic Party. I worked for four years among them in Germany.

Destroying Syriza was job number one. Or at the very least not allowing Syriza anything that could look like a troika concession. In fact, Syria should be forced to make concessions that wouldn't be asked of a right wing government.

Number two, there must be no more of this talk about the failure of austerity to achieve its goals like we had from the spineless Americans, the IMF. Don't even try to confuse the situation with facts.

And finally three, the only issue of morality is that you should always pay your debts, social order depends on it. Even if people go hungry, children go uneducated and seniors have to cut down on luxuries like food and shelter. The whole country, mainly the rich, benefited from the debt, this means that the whole country, except for the rich, must now pay the piper. There are no other relevant questions of morality involved.

These conclusions of the German financial sector aren't the results of candleside meetings and whispered plotting but of a lifetime of learning to believe lies and to ignore the inconvenient facts that contradict them.

1. That the hyperinflation after World War I was caused by the excessive printing of money.
2. That Germany paid back all of their debts resulting from WWI and WWII by working hard.
3. That running a trade surplus like they do is the way to escape excessive debt and that any country can do it by simply lowering wages.
4. That it is the economy's job to keep wages and therefore prices low, because wages are costs of production.
5. That the economy is wholly supply side driven, that nothing happens without investment and investment creates demand.
6. That investment comes from profits and therefore more profit is always an economic good.
7. That the financial capital, i.e. money, available for investment is a scarce resource.
8. That their place in the economy is the most important of all, deciding where to invest, which ideas, plans, companies and people will be winners and which will be losers.
9. That only they can be trusted with the wealth of the nation, everyone else wastes it on consumption.
10. That ultimately it is the government's job to protect and to encourage them.
11. That taxes on them hurts the economy.
12. That taxes on consumption help the economy.
13. That the solution to unemployment is for them to get jobs (JEB!)

All of these are lies that have been repeated so often that they are now accepted as being true. Especially by those few who benefit from the widespread acceptance of the lies.

 

[4321lynx]

I think it should be obvious now that Germany is still intent on remaking Europe in its image. Now, it is engaged in economic warfare and subterfuge instead of military invasions.

I am wondering if there are not some in Europe who are beginning to regret having Germany in the EU.

I know a lot about the German financial sector, German bankers and German industrialists and their relationship with the CDU, the Christian Democratic Party. I worked for four years among them in Germany.

Destroying Syriza was job number one. Or at the very least not allowing Syriza anything that could look like a troika concession. In fact, Syria should be forced to make concessions that wouldn't be asked of a right wing government.

Number two, there must be no more of this talk about the failure of austerity to achieve its goals like we had from the spineless Americans, the IMF. Don't even try to confuse the situation with facts.

And finally three, the only issue of morality is that you should always pay your debts, social order depends on it. Even if people go hungry, children go uneducated and seniors have to cut down on luxuries like food and shelter. The whole country, mainly the rich, benefited from the debt, this means that the whole country, except for the rich, must now pay the piper. There are no other relevant questions of morality involved.

These conclusions of the German financial sector aren't the results of candleside meetings and whispered plotting but of a lifetime of learning to believe lies and to ignore the inconvenient facts that contradict them.

1. That the hyperinflation after World War I was caused by the excessive printing of money.
2. That Germany paid back all of their debts resulting from WWI and WWII by working hard.
3. That running a trade surplus like they do is the way to escape excessive debt and that any country can do it by simply lowering wages.
4. That it is the economy's job to keep wages and therefore prices low, because wages are costs of production.
5. That the economy is wholly supply side driven, that nothing happens without investment and investment creates demand.
6. That investment comes from profits and therefore more profit is always an economic good.
7. That the financial capital, i.e. money, available for investment is a scarce resource.
8. That their place in the economy is the most important of all, deciding where to invest, which ideas, plans, companies and people will be winners and which will be losers.
9. That only they can be trusted with the wealth of the nation, everyone else wastes it on consumption.
10. That ultimately it is the government's job to protect and to encourage them.
11. That taxes on them hurts the economy.
12. That taxes on consumption help the economy.
13. That the solution to unemployment is for them to get jobs (JEB!)

All of these are lies that have been repeated so often that they are now accepted as being true. Especially by those few who benefit from the widespread acceptance of the lies.

H'm. You must have some interesting experiences in Germany.
I have never been there and my experience is limited to meeting some abroad, in England: prisoners of war working there on farms; and later meeting others at university there; and in various other settings in England and in other countries,;none of these meetings being in the financial sector. IMO the Germans are by far the hardest, most efficient and most reliable workers in Europe, and it comes naturally to them. Their aggressiveness and arrogance also comes naturally, the only saving grace is that they have reasons for the arrogance.
I carry no special brief for them and am not qualified to comment on your remarks above. My only comment on this is that whatever amount of loans they received were spent mostly on recovery of their dominant financial position in Europe, unlike the Greeks who appear to have spent theirs on sybaritic luxuries.

The morality of financial dealings is the same all over the capitalist world, though I have no doubt that morality or lack of it was delivered with typical Teutonic arrogance and disregard for niceties in Germany.

But also IMO: no Germany in the EU = no Eu, and that both now and at the very outset of that organization. Whatever the secret inner feelings of its members may be.