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Greece, what the fuck?

 
 
 
tupac chopra said:
I gotta say I don't get the latest moves. Syriza was elected to end austerity. Then a referendum was held which opposed the deal offered by the Europeans.
Then Alexis Tsipras' goes against all of this and offers the Europeans a deal going against what the people wanted. ???
Are they all wanting it to look like someone else s fault when it blows up?
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Syriza was elected to do magic. No shit that didn´t work. Now they´re doing other stuff.
 
DrZoidberg said:
tupac chopra said:
I gotta say I don't get the latest moves. Syriza was elected to end austerity. Then a referendum was held which opposed the deal offered by the Europeans.
Then Alexis Tsipras' goes against all of this and offers the Europeans a deal going against what the people wanted. ???
Are they all wanting it to look like someone else s fault when it blows up?
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Syriza was elected to do magic. No shit that didn´t work. Now they´re doing other stuff.
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It was like one of those Junior High School elections where someone runs on the promise of "No More Math Tests".

You shouldn't vote for people to do things they do not have the power to do and be surprised when they don't do it.
 
Bottom line. Everybody is scared of changing euro membership. That scaredness is easy to justify. Making waves that are different than any waves made before usually, like Bush's Iraq war with flowers thrown in was anticipated to be huge political success, don't work out so well. Really.

Greece didn't live up to promises so they had to put some real skin into the game, Greek stuff amounting to 50 billion Euro, and Europe is on the hook to consider forgiving some debt is Greece performs. So its not all bad form either di=side's point of view and it may be the best thing that could have happened given the history and the conditions imposed on Greece, Cypress, Portugal, Spain, Italy, the eastern block countries and Germany on East Germany, Ireland, and maybe others (I don't really keep up like I should).
 
So where are we?
Greece owes Germany (?German bankers) 68 billion Euros.
Receives 90 billion loan over x years, stays in EU.
People are mad that foreigners are dictating austerity, would like freedom to do what they say is needed, ie to spend some more.
Greeks get mad easily. Civil War 1946-50 or so, riots, political coups, military dictatorships etc. Modern democracy shakily installed in 1970s, tried to grab Cyprus, resulted in Turkish invasion of that island and the separation of the northern part of it permanently from the south.
With that history riots likely now or sooner or later as austerity bites in. ??new Civil War, to be pessimistic. This will achieve or approximate the fate of Syria, or at best that of Lebanon or Iraq or Afghanistan???
My advice to German and other EU tourists -- stick to France, Portugal, Spain and Italy and Croatia for a few summers, avoid Greece.
 
SimpleDon said:
The understanding that I get is that the Germans prevailed. That the Greeks face thirty years of crushing austerity to not pay off the debt. But the Germans forced the Greeks to put up €50 trillion in assets against the debt entered into yesterday.

Reparations for the damages suffered by the German bankers. Presumably, the Greeks called them bad names.
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No, the Greeks kept pleading for more money while not fixing their problems. If 30 years of crushing austerity is the price to pay for that misconduct, so be it.
 
Piketty said Germany is the only European state that has not repaid her debts and has no business lecturing others. "Infantile" is the word he uses.

It's pretty much accepted that the harsh treaty of Versailles and the depression enabled the Nazis. Better minds prevailed after WWII, and German debt was forgiven. Perhaps a wasted exercise; they've not learned anything.
 
Horatio Parker said:
Piketty said Germany is the only European state that has not repaid her debts and has no business lecturing others. "Infantile" is the word he uses.

It's pretty much accepted that the harsh treaty of Versailles and the depression enabled the Nazis. Better minds prevailed after WWII, and German debt was forgiven. Perhaps a wasted exercise; they've not learned anything.
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Germany still had to pay the Treaty of Versailles after WWII: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1315869/Germany-end-World-War-One-reparations-92-years-59m-final-payment.html

If the Germans can make good on their debts, why not the Greeks?
 
Trausti said:
Horatio Parker said:
Piketty said Germany is the only European state that has not repaid her debts and has no business lecturing others. "Infantile" is the word he uses.

It's pretty much accepted that the harsh treaty of Versailles and the depression enabled the Nazis. Better minds prevailed after WWII, and German debt was forgiven. Perhaps a wasted exercise; they've not learned anything.
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Germany still had to pay the Treaty of Versailles after WWII: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1315869/Germany-end-World-War-One-reparations-92-years-59m-final-payment.html

If the Germans can make good on their debts, why not the Greeks?
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Because the Germans are German and the Greeks are Greek. ;)

It's not how long hours you work, it's how you work, and how proud you are of your work.
 
Trausti said:
Horatio Parker said:
Piketty said Germany is the only European state that has not repaid her debts and has no business lecturing others. "Infantile" is the word he uses.

It's pretty much accepted that the harsh treaty of Versailles and the depression enabled the Nazis. Better minds prevailed after WWII, and German debt was forgiven. Perhaps a wasted exercise; they've not learned anything.
Click to expand...

Germany still had to pay the Treaty of Versailles after WWII: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1315869/Germany-end-World-War-One-reparations-92-years-59m-final-payment.html

If the Germans can make good on their debts, why not the Greeks?
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We can make up any reality we chose. If we go with what actually happened, your post is nonsense. Germany was forgiven much of its debt.
 
Nice Squirrel said:
You hear that Greece, you only have 85 years to go to pay off the debt.
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Post-war West Germany wasn't asking for more money, was it? Isn't this what the current situation is about? Think the Germany-Greece comparison is apples-oranges.

Oddly, West Germany volunteered to pay back its debts, it wasn't forced to. Yet another difference.
 
Trausti said:
Nice Squirrel said:
You hear that Greece, you only have 85 years to go to pay off the debt.
Click to expand...

Post-war West Germany wasn't asking for more money, was it? Isn't this what the current situation is about? Think the Germany-Greece comparison is apples-oranges.

Oddly, West Germany volunteered to pay back its debts, it wasn't forced to. Yet another difference.
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I wondered what happened in the meantime?
 
Nice Squirrel said:
Trausti said:
Post-war West Germany wasn't asking for more money, was it? Isn't this what the current situation is about? Think the Germany-Greece comparison is apples-oranges.

Oddly, West Germany volunteered to pay back its debts, it wasn't forced to. Yet another difference.
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I wondered what happened in the meantime?
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The West Germans rapidly built a robust economy without relying on handouts?
 
Horatio Parker said:
laughing dog said:
I guess this -  Marshall_Plan - does not count as a handout.
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You've not fully contemplated the apples/oranges universe. When you do, you'll realize the situations cannot be compared.

Seems to be the reasoning.
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Not sure how the Marshall plan is relevant since we are dealing with a member of a currency union's irresponsible borrowing not the aftermath of a world war.

I guess if the logic that irresponsible borrowing is best solved by even more irresponsible borrowing were applied, the Marshall plan would have been letting Germany get back on its feet by invading Poland.
 
dismal said:
Horatio Parker said:
You've not fully contemplated the apples/oranges universe. When you do, you'll realize the situations cannot be compared.

Seems to be the reasoning.
Click to expand...

Not sure how the Marshall plan is relevant since we are dealing with a member of a currency union's irresponsible borrowing not the aftermath of a world war.

I guess if the logic that irresponsible borrowing is best solved by even more irresponsible borrowing were applied, the Marshall plan would have been letting Germany get back on its feet by invading Poland.
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Referencing the Marshall Plan is a scheme of misdirection to make apologies for Greek fiscal irresponsibility.

There is another reason for the Plan's continued vitality. It has transcended reality and become a myth. To this day, a truly astonishing number of Germans (and almost all advanced high school students) have an idea what the Marshall Plan was, although their idea is very often very inaccurate. They think the Marshall Plan was aid given exclusively to West Germany; that it was given in the form of a vast amount of dollars (cash); that it was an outright gift from the U.S. Many Germans believe that the Marshall Plan was alone responsible for the economic miracle of the Fifties. And when scholars come along and explain that reality was far more complex, they are sceptical and disappointed.
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https://web.archive.org/web/20060709055340/http://www.germany.info/relaunch/culture/history/marshall.html
 
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