If the baby can survive outside the womb is abortion "murder"?

[Toni]

It doesn't say they are faked using latex or whatever might be used in movies.

There are many things that can happen. Just because a photo exists doesn't mean that the photo is of whatever it's claimed to be. And while making a 3d object for a movie would be expensive pasting stuff together in photoshop is not.

This is from a DVD that I hadn't watched before called The Shocker from 2005 (it was included for free with another DVD I bought). At the end it talked about abortion. It had a couple of minutes of moving videos so that would be hard to photoshop.

Spoiler: WARNING very shocking alledged abortion footage

Spoiler: you asked for it

Spoiler: are you sure?

View attachment 50382View attachment 50383View attachment 50384View attachment 50385

I haven't watched all of it but it makes me feel sad. I'm not saying it should be criminalised though. edit: the footage of bits of bodies/heads/etc makes me feel repulsed.

Big, big problems with your screenshots.

#1: Why did they do a c-section for an abortion?? No, that's almost certainly not an abortion.

#2: A tape measure?? I can't imagine a tape measure being permitted in the OR because how do you clean all those interior surfaces??

#2, #4: Both of these look wrong to me. Major fetal defect, perhaps?

They gathered some gruesome footage, doesn't mean it really shows what they claim it is.

If a fetus has died and is not quickly evacuated from the uterus, and for whatever medical reasons for the woman ( very high blood pressure for example or injury to the mother or position of the placenta ), a c-section might be medically safest for the woman.

Some examples:

• Failed or Inappropriate Dilation and Evacuation (D&E): D&E is a common surgical abortion method for the second trimester. However, if it fails or is deemed unsafe for the woman, a hysterotomy might be considered.
  
  
• Medical Necessity: If the woman's health is at risk due to the pregnancy, a c-section abortion might be necessary.
  
  
• Placenta Accreta: If the placenta is abnormally attached to the uterine wall, a c-section abortion may be necessary.
  
  
• Previous Cesarean Section: If a woman has a history of previous c-sections, there's an increased risk of complications with a vaginal birth or other abortion methods, making a c-section abortion a more suitable option.

 

[excreationist]

I know fakes have been around for a long time but I don't have them memorized to know if these were the same fakes.

How do you "know" this? Can you find ANY corroborating evidence that this footage, which I believe is from the 1990s, involves any fakes? You seem to think your expert opinion is all that is needed. You seem to be saying that all of it is fake. Personally your expert opinion without any supporting links seems a bit like experts who say the moon landing was faked due to the flag waving, etc. I mean it makes sense to you but you're starting with a stance that I think ignores the evidence.
I challenge everyone here as well. Surely there would be proof on some messageboard or news source, etc. I mean there were dozens of things that are of lots of different styles and themes (i.e. seem to have different sources - and some have worse footage quality like a copy of a copy of VHS)
Sorry if you're already answered this but if the footage is fake then how did they make it look real? Do you think they're special effects using latex or whatever? Do you know exactly what it involves or is the only thing you "know" is that it is fake?

 

[excreationist]

Don't worry about that moon landing example. Anyway I think some of the footage could be from the 1980s. The date of the music would give a clue to the the maximum age of the footage (if that makes any sense). Like I said there are many styles of photos and footage so if it is faked either lots of different people did it or they deliberately used lots of different styles while being from the same team. If it is fake a similar example would be the allegded alien autopsy footage.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Could you comment on the video in post #491? Note it is 20+ years old maybe 30+ years. That footage should be better evidence than those 4 screenshots. I’m not surprised that some of it isn’t “normal medical practice”. Maybe some people had a bargain basement abortion.

I don't want to stink up my mind with images like those so I haven't seen them. But one of the possibilities that popped into my head was that they came from back alley abortionists.
Ya know, the kind women resort to when legitimate health care facilities are not available to them. Ya know, like now.
Tom

I thought about that but why would they be documenting things like this?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

It doesn't say they are faked using latex or whatever might be used in movies.

There are many things that can happen. Just because a photo exists doesn't mean that the photo is of whatever it's claimed to be. And while making a 3d object for a movie would be expensive pasting stuff together in photoshop is not.

This is from a DVD that I hadn't watched before called The Shocker from 2005 (it was included for free with another DVD I bought). At the end it talked about abortion. It had a couple of minutes of moving videos so that would be hard to photoshop.

Spoiler: WARNING very shocking alledged abortion footage

Spoiler: you asked for it

Spoiler: are you sure?

View attachment 50382View attachment 50383View attachment 50384View attachment 50385

I haven't watched all of it but it makes me feel sad. I'm not saying it should be criminalised though. edit: the footage of bits of bodies/heads/etc makes me feel repulsed.

Big, big problems with your screenshots.

#1: Why did they do a c-section for an abortion?? No, that's almost certainly not an abortion.

#2: A tape measure?? I can't imagine a tape measure being permitted in the OR because how do you clean all those interior surfaces??

#2, #4: Both of these look wrong to me. Major fetal defect, perhaps?

They gathered some gruesome footage, doesn't mean it really shows what they claim it is.

If a fetus has died and is not quickly evacuated from the uterus, and for whatever medical reasons for the woman ( very high blood pressure for example or injury to the mother or position of the placenta ), a c-section might be medically safest for the woman.

Some examples:

• Failed or Inappropriate Dilation and Evacuation (D&E): D&E is a common surgical abortion method for the second trimester. However, if it fails or is deemed unsafe for the woman, a hysterotomy might be considered.
  
  
• Medical Necessity: If the woman's health is at risk due to the pregnancy, a c-section abortion might be necessary.
  
  
• Placenta Accreta: If the placenta is abnormally attached to the uterine wall, a c-section abortion may be necessary.
  
  
• Previous Cesarean Section: If a woman has a history of previous c-sections, there's an increased risk of complications with a vaginal birth or other abortion methods, making a c-section abortion a more suitable option.

Turns out that it's moot--what I was interpreting as surgical draping (thus making it a view into the uterus) was supposedly a trash can.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I know fakes have been around for a long time but I don't have them memorized to know if these were the same fakes.

How do you "know" this? Can you find ANY corroborating evidence that this footage, which I believe is from the 1990s, involves any fakes? You seem to think your expert opinion is all that is needed. You seem to be saying that all of it is fake. Personally your expert opinion without any supporting links seems a bit like experts who say the moon landing was faked due to the flag waving, etc. I mean it makes sense to you but you're starting with a stance that I think ignores the evidence.
I challenge everyone here as well. Surely there would be proof on some messageboard or news source, etc. I mean there were dozens of things that are of lots of different styles and themes (i.e. seem to have different sources - and some have worse footage quality like a copy of a copy of VHS)
Sorry if you're already answered this but if the footage is fake then how did they make it look real? Do you think they're special effects using latex or whatever? Do you know exactly what it involves or is the only thing you "know" is that it is fake?

I don't consider myself an expert by any means. I'm just pointing out things that do not match up with standard medical practice, thus suggesting it's probably fake. What's your evidence that it's real? And if there were a debunking somewhere how would you find it?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I know fakes have been around for a long time but I don't have them memorized to know if these were the same fakes.

How do you "know" this? Can you find ANY corroborating evidence that this footage, which I believe is from the 1990s, involves any fakes? You seem to think your expert opinion is all that is needed. You seem to be saying that all of it is fake. Personally your expert opinion without any supporting links seems a bit like experts who say the moon landing was faked due to the flag waving, etc. I mean it makes sense to you but you're starting with a stance that I think ignores the evidence.
I challenge everyone here as well. Surely there would be proof on some messageboard or news source, etc. I mean there were dozens of things that are of lots of different styles and themes (i.e. seem to have different sources - and some have worse footage quality like a copy of a copy of VHS)
Sorry if you're already answered this but if the footage is fake then how did they make it look real? Do you think they're special effects using latex or whatever? Do you know exactly what it involves or is the only thing you "know" is that it is fake?

Remember that there's already been a link in this thread about there being a lot of fakes. But now you're questioning whether there are fakes.

 

[Jarhyn]

I know fakes have been around for a long time but I don't have them memorized to know if these were the same fakes.

How do you "know" this? Can you find ANY corroborating evidence that this footage, which I believe is from the 1990s, involves any fakes? You seem to think your expert opinion is all that is needed. You seem to be saying that all of it is fake. Personally your expert opinion without any supporting links seems a bit like experts who say the moon landing was faked due to the flag waving, etc. I mean it makes sense to you but you're starting with a stance that I think ignores the evidence.
I challenge everyone here as well. Surely there would be proof on some messageboard or news source, etc. I mean there were dozens of things that are of lots of different styles and themes (i.e. seem to have different sources - and some have worse footage quality like a copy of a copy of VHS)
Sorry if you're already answered this but if the footage is fake then how did they make it look real? Do you think they're special effects using latex or whatever? Do you know exactly what it involves or is the only thing you "know" is that it is fake?

Remember that there's already been a link in this thread about there being a lot of fakes. But now you're questioning whether there are fakes.

Or for that matter, half-truths.

Like the origins of the fetuses: they could be late term stillbirths from the 80's, or earlier, or for that matter sculpted from fucking sugar.

We have no provenance on any of it.

Really, they're just the pre-internet version of Goatse, presented by fuckwits who have convinced themselves they aren't the bad guys for shocking people with it.

Those images do not represent any sane sort of reality they could attach to any of their claims.

 

[excreationist]

Remember that there's already been a link in this thread about there being a lot of fakes. But now you're questioning whether there are fakes

Do you mean post #491? If not please point out which link you're talking about. If it's just about that post I'll respond to that. Ideally you and everyone else should provide evidence of fraud other than those I already provided.

 

[Jarhyn]

Remember that there's already been a link in this thread about there being a lot of fakes. But now you're questioning whether there are fakes

Do you mean post #491? If not please point out which link you're talking about. If it's just about that post I'll respond to that. Ideally you and everyone else should provide evidence of fraud other than those I already provided.

When dealing with a known group of regular liars, the burden of proof rests with them.

They are the ones claiming the "evidence" they provide is real without having met the standard for credible evidence for anything.

I have watched people make the most realistic fakes of all sorts of stuff with little more than sugar and paint.

There is something seriously twisted about your standards of evidence and your biases here: you jump into the most sketchy unevidenced claims by known charlatans and then you expect the people disregarding such codswallop to fulfill the burden of evidence to debunk it rather than seeing their track record as liars and then expecting extraordinary evidence.

Its like your whole mechanism for expecting evidence is broken by some residual value you place on their authority.

You would be best served from having a divorce from all your sources for pretty much everything: quit consuming YouTube videos about these subjects; learn the subtleties of language for those engaging in biased studies; learn the practices of scam artists.

The reality is that if these pictures were broadly real and showed what they claim to, they would have memorized the stories behind those shock images.

For fuck sakes, I know the backstory behind Goatse, Tubgirl, and Lemon Party; I know the backstory behind Four Girls Fingerpainting FFS.

Random internet shock/porn images and videos have more backstory and veracity than these things.

And the worst problem is that, like, what do they intend to show? They AREN'T showing the reality except maybe the reality that happens when they win and abortions end up "sketchy", and yeah, sometimes the result of an action is really fucking gross.

Like, if I held up a sign saying "quit eating, this is what happens" holding up a sign with images of poop, would I have a point? Is the gross looking artifact any reason not to do something necessary for your wellbeing or the wellbeing of society?

There's just nothing to be had from continuing to argue this. It's stupid and frankly I think that the people holding up those signs showing images of gore in public places (or shit, or pornography, or whatever other stomach turning image) need to see some consequences for disturbing the peace.

 

[excreationist]

Remember that there's already been a link in this thread about there being a lot of fakes. But now you're questioning whether there are fakes

Do you mean post #491? If not please point out which link you're talking about. If it's just about that post I'll respond to that. Ideally you and everyone else should provide evidence of fraud other than those I already provided.

When dealing with a known group of regular liars, the burden of proof rests with them.

Planned Parenthood from 2015 is different from this unknown collection of images/footage from the 1980s or 1990s. The PP incident has a lot of evidence for fraud. All I'm looking for is a single mention that any abortion photos/footage from the 1980s or 1990s used fake foetuses.

They are the ones claiming the "evidence" they provide is real without having met the standard for credible evidence for anything.

I have watched people make the most realistic fakes of all sorts of stuff with little more than sugar and paint.

Note there are dozens of different styles of footage/images, and different kinds of abortions and body colour. Do you think the same team made them all or is it from lots of different teams? If it was the same team that means that some of the time they took still photos and other times they use worse quality VHS, etc. Note that the footage could be from overseas where abortion is less professional. Also the DVD I got the footage from was free. If they used fakes surely it would cost some money.

For me to prove my side to your satisfaction it might require me to prove that all of the dozens of abortion photos/videos are real. For you all you need to do is prove a single photo/video from the 1980s or 1990s is not a real foetus. But by proof I mean a mention of it on the internet, not just your own expert opinion.

 

[Jarhyn]

I think there is a long history and track record of "lying for Jesus", which justifies the expectation of at least SOME provenance for those images.

If its entirely possible for bored 18-24 year olds to have documented the actual fluid featured in an obscure video of a woman drinking suspicious fluids emitted from her orifices, I find it suspicious that focused individuals intent on maintaining their case in the circle of public opinion didn't manage as much.

I think that the people making some claim have a responsibility to make that claim honestly.

I am asking a reasonable thing: for people claiming such things to produce the true and verifiable history of such videos, images, or whatever they claim is real, because we have evidence of more recent fraud, and human nature is not a new thing.

 

[excreationist]

I don't consider myself an expert by any means. I'm just pointing out things that do not match up with standard medical practice, thus suggesting it's probably fake. What's your evidence that it's real? And if there were a debunking somewhere how would you find it?

So you're saying abortions follow medical practice so if it doesn't follow medical practice then it isn't a genuine abortion? Note that abortions are performed all over the world including in third world countries and some people mightn't be able to afford a good professional. They never said the footage and photos were only captured in the US.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I know fakes have been around for a long time but I don't have them memorized to know if these were the same fakes.

How do you "know" this? Can you find ANY corroborating evidence that this footage, which I believe is from the 1990s, involves any fakes? You seem to think your expert opinion is all that is needed. You seem to be saying that all of it is fake. Personally your expert opinion without any supporting links seems a bit like experts who say the moon landing was faked due to the flag waving, etc. I mean it makes sense to you but you're starting with a stance that I think ignores the evidence.
I challenge everyone here as well. Surely there would be proof on some messageboard or news source, etc. I mean there were dozens of things that are of lots of different styles and themes (i.e. seem to have different sources - and some have worse footage quality like a copy of a copy of VHS)
Sorry if you're already answered this but if the footage is fake then how did they make it look real? Do you think they're special effects using latex or whatever? Do you know exactly what it involves or is the only thing you "know" is that it is fake?

Remember that there's already been a link in this thread about there being a lot of fakes. But now you're questioning whether there are fakes.

Or for that matter, half-truths.

Like the origins of the fetuses: they could be late term stillbirths from the 80's, or earlier, or for that matter sculpted from fucking sugar.

Faking the label is faking. I consider using pictures of stillbirths as evidence of abortions to be fakes.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Remember that there's already been a link in this thread about there being a lot of fakes. But now you're questioning whether there are fakes

Do you mean post #491? If not please point out which link you're talking about. If it's just about that post I'll respond to that. Ideally you and everyone else should provide evidence of fraud other than those I already provided.

When dealing with a known group of regular liars, the burden of proof rests with them.

Planned Parenthood from 2015 is different from this unknown collection of images/footage from the 1980s or 1990s. The PP incident has a lot of evidence for fraud. All I'm looking for is a single mention that any abortion photos/footage from the 1980s or 1990s used fake foetuses.

Goalposts! Note that it could be stillbirths, not constructs.

They are the ones claiming the "evidence" they provide is real without having met the standard for credible evidence for anything.

I have watched people make the most realistic fakes of all sorts of stuff with little more than sugar and paint.

Note there are dozens of different styles of footage/images, and different kinds of abortions and body colour. Do you think the same team made them all or is it from lots of different teams? If it was the same team that means that some of the time they took still photos and other times they use worse quality VHS, etc. Note that the footage could be from overseas where abortion is less professional. Also the DVD I got the footage from was free. If they used fakes surely it would cost some money.

What you have shown simply look like dead color.

For me to prove my side to your satisfaction it might require me to prove that all of the dozens of abortion photos/videos are real. For you all you need to do is prove a single photo/video from the 1980s or 1990s is not a real foetus. But by proof I mean a mention of it on the internet, not just your own expert opinion.

The burden is upon the side making the claim. There's no question there are a decent number of fakes, thus the burden is on proving any given image is real. And is of what they say it is. I suspect #1 is simply a stillbirth.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I don't consider myself an expert by any means. I'm just pointing out things that do not match up with standard medical practice, thus suggesting it's probably fake. What's your evidence that it's real? And if there were a debunking somewhere how would you find it?

So you're saying abortions follow medical practice so if it doesn't follow medical practice then it isn't a genuine abortion? Note that abortions are performed all over the world including in third world countries and some people mightn't be able to afford a good professional. They never said the footage and photos were only captured in the US.

#1 could be foreign, the lack of a biohazard bag in a third world location would not surprise me at all. Or it could simply be a stillbirth. And we have no indication that it even happened in a medical context.

And if it's unscrupulous individuals why document it? But even a third world hospital will understand the problem with tape measures, even if they are using repurposed equipment they'll use something that can be wiped down with alcohol rather than something that you can't hope to sterilize.

 

[Jarhyn]

I don't consider myself an expert by any means. I'm just pointing out things that do not match up with standard medical practice, thus suggesting it's probably fake. What's your evidence that it's real? And if there were a debunking somewhere how would you find it?

So you're saying abortions follow medical practice so if it doesn't follow medical practice then it isn't a genuine abortion? Note that abortions are performed all over the world including in third world countries and some people mightn't be able to afford a good professional. They never said the footage and photos were only captured in the US.

#1 could be foreign, the lack of a biohazard bag in a third world location would not surprise me at all. Or it could simply be a stillbirth. And we have no indication that it even happened in a medical context.

And if it's unscrupulous individuals why document it? But even a third world hospital will understand the problem with tape measures, even if they are using repurposed equipment they'll use something that can be wiped down with alcohol rather than something that you can't hope to sterilize.

It could be in a morgue, measuring a fetus removed from a corpse for all we know.

They do have tape measures in morgues.

 

[excreationist]

This confirms what I was saying about abortion allowed up until birth:

and I want to make the point too in New South Wales that you can have late term abortion right up until your due date

The news host and a former prime minister confirmed that and they would know since the former PM actually created laws and this abortion law is a kind of law. So my point was what the law allows, not about what morality those people might have.

 

[excreationist]

Remember that there's already been a link in this thread about there being a lot of fakes. But now you're questioning whether there are fakes

Do you mean post #491? If not please point out which link you're talking about. If it's just about that post I'll respond to that. Ideally you and everyone else should provide evidence of fraud other than those I already provided.

When dealing with a known group of regular liars, the burden of proof rests with them.

2015 is about 20 years after the videos I provided and they're the same group of liars? Also PP would have slick videos - these ones are often very amateur (but inconsistent).

Planned Parenthood from 2015 is different from this unknown collection of images/footage from the 1980s or 1990s. The PP incident has a lot of evidence for fraud. All I'm looking for is a single mention that any abortion photos/footage from the 1980s or 1990s used fake foetuses.

Goalposts! Note that it could be stillbirths, not constructs.

So you can't find a SINGLE website/post that confirms your theory? Note I was the one that provided that link about PP 2015. So are you saying they found some stillbirths and then chopped some of them up to make them look like an abortion? (because some of the footage involves chopped up things). Sounds like a big conspiracy to me - there would need to be a lot of people "in on it".

They are the ones claiming the "evidence" they provide is real without having met the standard for credible evidence for anything.

I have watched people make the most realistic fakes of all sorts of stuff with little more than sugar and paint.

Note there are dozens of different styles of footage/images, and different kinds of abortions and body colour. Do you think the same team made them all or is it from lots of different teams? If it was the same team that means that some of the time they took still photos and other times they use worse quality VHS, etc. Note that the footage could be from overseas where abortion is less professional. Also the DVD I got the footage from was free. If they used fakes surely it would cost some money.

What you have shown simply look like dead color.

I'll show you how much variation there is just in the type of colour - from a fairly consistent colour in the first to the blotchy colour of the second, etc.

Spoiler

For me to prove my side to your satisfaction it might require me to prove that all of the dozens of abortion photos/videos are real. For you all you need to do is prove a single photo/video from the 1980s or 1990s is not a real foetus. But by proof I mean a mention of it on the internet, not just your own expert opinion.

The burden is upon the side making the claim. There's no question there are a decent number of fakes, thus the burden is on proving any given image is real. And is of what they say it is. I suspect #1 is simply a stillbirth.

"No question"? Based solely on your opinions without a single shred of hard evidence (from the internet)? If it was faked why didn't they just stop at one or two examples? They seem to be from many different sites. And if they went to all of this trouble why wasn't it sold and marketed much? It didn't even have its own dedicated video - it was just part of a long seminar in lots of different topics like freemasons, etc.
"And is of what they say it is"
The footage is just footage/pictures set to music. There is the implication these are abortions though the start shows a healthy foetus in the womb.
Even the hands are inconsistent - sometimes they have gloves, sometimes they don't. Do you seriously think the team said to themselves "let's take off the gloves for these examples so there is more variation and to make it seem more realistic"?

So this is about proving that "fakes" are real.... seems like a similar category where people believe the moon landing videos and photos are "fakes".
So in the moon landing example "the burden is on proving any given image is real". I know that sounds like an exaggeration but it still seems like a similar category to me. Also people who believe the moon landing photos are faked would use their own reasoning rather than refer to other websites, etc.

 

[excreationist]

BTW I think the message of the video is "this is what early babies or foetuses look like" rather than only just being about aborted foetuses. It begins with foetuses and fertilised eggs in the womb. If it shows any naturally stillborn babies I don't think it is being misleading. Well that's my opinion.