If the baby can survive outside the womb is abortion "murder"?

[Playball40]

YOU are ignoring the question of WHY you think that YOU get a say about what someone else does with her body.

Though I originally was saying that maybe late-term abortion could be considered murder I wasn't saying it should be banned if that makes sense. I was kind of playing the devil's advocate.

Well, cool then. Speculating about whether or not it should be a crime for someone to undergo a legal procedure that you will never face yourself is totally just fine.

Politicians can also speculate whether it should be a crime even if they're males - so voters should be able to too.

And they shouldn't have the right to make it a crime either.

 

[Playball40]

but you do not know AT ALL what the circumstances are because it’s just one point in a bunch of statistics.


YOU

DO

NOT

KNOW.

Full Stop.

"AT ALL"?
It says "terminations for psychosocial indications only". That means there were only psychosocial reasons for the abortion and there weren't significant health problems with the mother and foetus. So we do know things about the circumstances.

Not really. You absolutely do not know what those circumstances are. As far as we know, the mother was an 11 year old girl raped by her father and nobody knew she was pregnant until she was 37 weeks pregnant—fairly plausible because she may not have yet had her first period and her family and church were castigating her as a whore and meanwhile she was still being abused by family member(s). Or she was having a psychotic break for some mental health issue and required med Cation to stop her from harming herself. Unless you believe that it was preferable to lose both mother and fetus rather than just fetus. Or that the mother was entirely expendable. Or a thousand other scenarios.

That example was for psychosocial reasons only - these include "timing, feelings of un-readiness to be a mother, existing children, influence of others (family/partner), and inadequate financial resources or housing". i.e. not rape or issues with the health of the mother or foetus. At 37 weeks it is likely the foetus could be delivered alive (since there weren't problems with its health) so I'm not sure why it had to be delivered stillborn rather than alive. But I don't think the laws should be changed since I'm not a Christian.

So you don't even know if the fetus was already dead or was incompatible with LIFE. You don't have a clue.

 

[excreationist]

@Toni

I got to know her better when we were working together helping people collect their school book packs. She was wearing a sexy net top over her top and she had beautiful light blue eyes. I don't remember but I assume we would have talked a bit. (I was just reflecting on my feelings at the time)

BTW the videos I wanted to watch weren't technically pornos. They were educational sex videos. I also had the videos playing on the TV for everyone to see while I was in shared accommodation in university or at least I had the videos sitting near the TV and talked to people about them.

When I was talking on the phone to the girl about the videos I did have a vague thought about having sex with her (without being able to picture it in my head) but before and after that I wasn't thinking about having sex with her. I just wanted her to be my girlfriend. When she said she shaves her legs in the shower I thought maybe she likes me but I wasn't thinking about sex. At that age I'd sometimes get out school yearbooks and masturbate to the pictures but I never did to her picture - maybe because I couldn't find her photo or maybe I didn't look for it. But for the other girls I would be thinking about having sex with them.

BTW I had horrible people/girl skills even at the age of 22 and were doing a lot of inappropriate things. e.g. there was a fishing knife I really liked and a flatmate told me to show or wave it at a flatmate I had a crush on. So I went to her room and said "hi [name]" while smiling and waving the knife at her. She warmly said "hi". I got in trouble with the people running the accommodation and I said I did it because my flatmate told me to. I can't remember if it was this incident but at some point the people said that the girl was crying while calling her mother. Note a flatmate told me that he couldn't read the girl at all. That's partly why I didn't think she had a problem with the knife while she was smiling.

So I'm not your typical guy who was interested in girls that were too young. Anyway it was highly inappropriate for me to ring her up, etc. But at that time I didn't really have any idea about what people would think of me (like that 13 year old) - partly because next to no-one was telling me what they thought of me - until university.

 

[excreationist]

It says "terminations for psychosocial indications only". That means there were only psychosocial reasons for the abortion and there weren't significant health problems with the mother and foetus. So we do know things about the circumstances.

Not to mention it says NOTHING about the life of the fetus. An "abortion" at 37 weeks is INDUCED LABOR (terminate the PREGNANCY). You just seem to ignore this.

Are you saying the foetus was or wasn't killed before labor was induced?

 

[excreationist]

And they shouldn't have the right to make it a crime either.

I have never wanted abortion to be a crime. I guess using the term "murder" implies that it should be a crime but originally I didn't put two and two together - like some of my social skills stories.
I find it hard to think about how I feel about abortion - I think I'm mainly apathetic. I also find it hard to think about it rationally. Part of me thinks that late term abortions could be stopped and the baby could be put up for adoption. I think I have multiple "personalities" that can contradict each other based on their values - a bit like Freud's id, ego and superego.

 

[Elixir]

I find it hard to think about how I feel about abortion

That’s why so many people with strong feelings about it, decline to think. Pity.

 

[Jarhyn]

@Toni

I got to know her better when we were working together helping people collect their school book packs. She was wearing a sexy....

Ok, just stop. I am losing pretty much all respect I hoped to ever have for you here.

I dress as a wizard; I AM a wizard. Do you think that's an open invitation for people to just walk up to me asking for magic spells and shit?

People dress the way they do for themselves as much as others. Sometimes they dress a way because that's what their parents or society says is cute, and they like "cute", they think it brightens everyone's day (and maybe it does).

When I was in sixth grade I walked with a roll to my hips a lot. It doesn't mean I was trying to get someone to bend me over!

Just... Don't. Quit trying to justify it.

Whenever the part inside your head even starts to push a justification, tell it to stop. Put it in a box. Ask it what the fuck it's problem is.

 

[Elixir]

Do you think that's an open invitation for people to just walk up to me asking for magic spells and shit?

Like you wouldn't give me one if I needed it?

That's it. I'm just gonna leave.
Last one out, call for cleanup on aisle five.

 

[excreationist]

@Toni

I got to know her better when we were working together helping people collect their school book packs. She was wearing a sexy....

Ok, just stop. I am losing pretty much all respect I hoped to ever have for you here.

.....

Just... Don't. Quit trying to justify it.

Whenever the part inside your head even starts to push a justification, tell it to stop. Put it in a box. Ask it what the fuck it's problem is.

I think something that is kind of related is that I'm a big fan of black comedies like Bad Boy Bubby and Happiness where some parts are incredibly messed up but in a way it shows their humanity instead of overly demonising them.

 

[Jarhyn]

@Toni

I got to know her better when we were working together helping people collect their school book packs. She was wearing a sexy....

Ok, just stop. I am losing pretty much all respect I hoped to ever have for you here.

.....

Just... Don't. Quit trying to justify it.

Whenever the part inside your head even starts to push a justification, tell it to stop. Put it in a box. Ask it what the fuck it's problem is.

I think something that is kind of related is that I'm a big fan of black comedies like Bad Boy Bubby and Happiness where some parts are incredibly messed up but in a way it shows their humanity instead of overly demonising them.

This is a long post and I want you to read all the way to the end and then not respond, or respond with very few words.

You are the best parent left to the child that is yourself, and if you want to be an effective parent to that clear child, you will tell them what behavior is and is not acceptable except when people consent properly to it, and it is impoper to give the based demons of your nature approval for offering justifications for violating that consent.

It doesn't matter if she explicitly told you she wanted to ride your dick in the basement and did it with glee and never told a soul and you were still banging to this day and had 3 kids.

It seriously would not matter.

It would still be wrong, and even if a healthy relationship had blossomed from it, a mature adult capable of growth and self awareness would say to that person now old or whatever "we were wrong to have done that, even so, and I hope you can forgive me."

Honestly, it would probably indicate that there was way more wrong shit going on in her life at that point, but that would be beside the matter.

Things far short of even that happened. If that thing I described is still "indefensible" and a reason to direct your shame towards making yourself better, then how much more unconscionable is trying to justify what did happen?

You should feel those feelings. You should simulate feeling them if you don't feel them directly. Maybe think of a time you did feel embarrassment and shame, of refusal, of indignation at the very idea that it was suggested, there's lots of options. Not every option works for every part of you, but the interaction for me usually goes the same way interactions with people can go.

IDGAF about what your inner family thinks; you are the head of that family just as are we all, and while I don't give a fuck if my family is into some weird shit in here, and there are vanishingly few words, but the one thing that gets the safe-word and an internal discussion are suggestions that violate informed consent and the principles which define self defense.

I want you to understand how I feel about you, deriving from your feelings about your actions.

If you felt even a trifle of the way I feel right now from what you told me, I wouldn't feel like I had to feel it. I could be at peace of this disgust, and you would sleep a little worse until you had told everyone in your life that deserved to know and understood the consequences of those interactions, even if they forgive you and understand; I know I would question those who told me it wasn't wrong, and such loss is one of the consequences of being a better person.

I know it is really NOT my place to be giving advice.

You don't need to follow it.

My respect is worth little; and I'm miserly and often backhanded with it, and I am as miserly to the mirror with it.

Understanding everything I'm saying here and just leaving it at that is the line I draw for it starting to recover my respect, and is a source of my own sense of self-respect.

I'm saying this to everyone else who has such a story.

And so that I'm not seen as a hypocrite here:

I have stories like this, of being shitty to girls because "boys did that in the 80's" and while we shouldn't have, many of us did.

I know I did it because I was jealous because I didn't want to hang out with boys, I wanted to be around the girls because boys sucked, but "boys" were expected not to do that in the 80's. So in my range and inability to understand testosterone, I just chased girls in what was a cartoonish way because I didn't know what else to do and nobody would tell me and even if they could or would, in the 80's they would tell me I was a "boy" and "boys" not only would, but would only be expected to be boys.

It was still wrong. I was still wrong.

Then later I obsessed with trying to get with girls rather than to have that relationship because I drank the Kool aide after my voice was lost on being a boy and chasing goblin gold down into what is for many people like me a nutty-putty cave kinda situation.

Opening that box makes me feel the shame of a thousand lifetimes, because I have cultivated that shame so that I can open the box like a weapon when I start repeating those kinds of hollow justifications.

That said, this does not always work and sometimes any attention is wrong attention and you can also use a technique involving just looking at the justification offered, saying "that's a justification", and just "putting it on a shelf in a box" (AKA "Dissipation" in therapist parlance), but even that tends to be motivated by a slow burn of shame driving the recognition of it for me.

I'm already taking my own goddamn advice, by making "I statements" that do little or nothing in an attempt to divert the shamefulness of my own past.

I want eventually to respect you and don't want you to even try to respond to this, and wouldn't respect any immediate response.

I want SO much to be done with this thread; I am so tired. I really hope you manage to understand all the things I've said here. In fact, every person, regardless of gender, needs to understand that they cannot let themselves accept hollow justifications when they hurt someone any more than they ought accept hollow justifications for others hurting them.

Hopefully this stupid derail gets sliced off and put in Elsewhere or something.

 

[Toni]

@Toni

I got to know her better when we were working together helping people collect their school book packs. She was wearing a sexy....

Ok, just stop. I am losing pretty much all respect I hoped to ever have for you here.

.....

Just... Don't. Quit trying to justify it.

Whenever the part inside your head even starts to push a justification, tell it to stop. Put it in a box. Ask it what the fuck it's problem is.

I think something that is kind of related is that I'm a big fan of black comedies like Bad Boy Bubby and Happiness where some parts are incredibly messed up but in a way it shows their humanity instead of overly demonising them.

This is a long post and I want you to read all the way to the end and then not respond, or respond with very few words.

You are the best parent left to the child that is yourself, and if you want to be an effective parent to that clear child, you will tell them what behavior is and is not acceptable except when people consent properly to it, and it is impoper to give the based demons of your nature approval for offering justifications for violating that consent.

It doesn't matter if she explicitly told you she wanted to ride your dick in the basement and did it with glee and never told a soul and you were still banging to this day and had 3 kids.

It seriously would not matter.

It would still be wrong, and even if a healthy relationship had blossomed from it, a mature adult capable of growth and self awareness would say to that person now old or whatever "we were wrong to have done that, even so, and I hope you can forgive me."

Honestly, it would probably indicate that there was way more wrong shit going on in her life at that point, but that would be beside the matter.

Things far short of even that happened. If that thing I described is still "indefensible" and a reason to direct your shame towards making yourself better, then how much more unconscionable is trying to justify what did happen?

You should feel those feelings. You should simulate feeling them if you don't feel them directly. Maybe think of a time you did feel embarrassment and shame, of refusal, of indignation at the very idea that it was suggested, there's lots of options. Not every option works for every part of you, but the interaction for me usually goes the same way interactions with people can go.

IDGAF about what your inner family thinks; you are the head of that family just as are we all, and while I don't give a fuck if my family is into some weird shit in here, and there are vanishingly few words, but the one thing that gets the safe-word and an internal discussion are suggestions that violate informed consent and the principles which define self defense.

I want you to understand how I feel about you, deriving from your feelings about your actions.

If you felt even a trifle of the way I feel right now from what you told me, I wouldn't feel like I had to feel it. I could be at peace of this disgust, and you would sleep a little worse until you had told everyone in your life that deserved to know and understood the consequences of those interactions, even if they forgive you and understand; I know I would question those who told me it wasn't wrong, and such loss is one of the consequences of being a better person.

I know it is really NOT my place to be giving advice.

You don't need to follow it.

My respect is worth little; and I'm miserly and often backhanded with it, and I am as miserly to the mirror with it.

Understanding everything I'm saying here and just leaving it at that is the line I draw for it starting to recover my respect, and is a source of my own sense of self-respect.

I'm saying this to everyone else who has such a story.

And so that I'm not seen as a hypocrite here:

I have stories like this, of being shitty to girls because "boys did that in the 80's" and while we shouldn't have, many of us did.

I know I did it because I was jealous because I didn't want to hang out with boys, I wanted to be around the girls because boys sucked, but "boys" were expected not to do that in the 80's. So in my range and inability to understand testosterone, I just chased girls in what was a cartoonish way because I didn't know what else to do and nobody would tell me and even if they could or would, in the 80's they would tell me I was a "boy" and "boys" not only would, but would only be expected to be boys.

It was still wrong. I was still wrong.

Then later I obsessed with trying to get with girls rather than to have that relationship because I drank the Kool aide after my voice was lost on being a boy and chasing goblin gold down into what is for many people like me a nutty-putty cave kinda situation.

Opening that box makes me feel the shame of a thousand lifetimes, because I have cultivated that shame so that I can open the box like a weapon when I start repeating those kinds of hollow justifications.

That said, this does not always work and sometimes any attention is wrong attention and you can also use a technique involving just looking at the justification offered, saying "that's a justification", and just "putting it on a shelf in a box" (AKA "Dissipation" in therapist parlance), but even that tends to be motivated by a slow burn of shame driving the recognition of it for me.

I'm already taking my own goddamn advice, by making "I statements" that do little or nothing in an attempt to divert the shamefulness of my own past.

I want eventually to respect you and don't want you to even try to respond to this, and wouldn't respect any immediate response.

I want SO much to be done with this thread; I am so tired. I really hope you manage to understand all the things I've said here. In fact, every person, regardless of gender, needs to understand that they cannot let themselves accept hollow justifications when they hurt someone any more than they ought accept hollow justifications for others hurting them.

Hopefully this stupid derail gets sliced off and put in Elsewhere or something.

Yes, I hope the mods slice this detail off and put it into its own thread.

 

[excreationist]

I'll reply to Jarhyn eventually but I wanted to point out that there is a black comedy called Palindromes. It looks at a lot of aspects of abortion such as a 13 year old being pressured into having one by her parents (but she had sex in order to have a baby). There is also a fundamentalist "family" made up of lots of kids and some have birth defects who sing a slick anti-abortion song. One of the boys collects aborted foetuses from a dump and wants to give them a Christian burial. The main character runs away from home and gets into a sexual relationship with a truck driver - but he ends up being shot by the police. She also has sex with a guy not much older than her. The actor playing the main character changes a lot though here she is black and fairly old:

 

[TomC]

I'll reply to Jarhyn eventually but I wanted to point out that there is a black comedy called Palindromes. It looks at a lot of aspects of abortion such as a 13 year old being pressured into having one by her parents (but she had sex in order to have a baby). There is also a fundamentalist "family" made up of lots of kids and some have birth defects who sing a slick anti-abortion song. One of the boys collects aborted foetuses from a dump and wants to give them a Christian burial. The main character runs away from home and gets into a sexual relationship with a truck driver - but he ends up being shot by the police. She also has sex with a guy not much older than her. The actor playing the main character changes a lot though here she is black and fairly old:

I hate to sound judgemental, but that sounds as comedic as Nightmare on Elm Street or Dawn of the Dead.
Maybe the derail into your personal issues would be better moved to Support forum?
Tom

 

[excreationist]

I hate to sound judgemental, but that sounds as comedic as Nightmare on Elm Street or Dawn of the Dead.

Those two horror movies contain some dark humour and black comedies like Palindromes are supposed to be very dark. I think the following part is very comedic at least:

Anyway the movie has a lot to do with abortions including exploring anti-abortion Christians.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Btw I’ve seen some aborted foetus photos and felt repulsed at the chopped up ones but still was curious and looked at a few more.

And you have some reason to think the photos are real??

They look real. If they had to make lots of them look real (e.g. if it was for a movie) I think that would cost quite a lot. The websites with the photos often have a very unprofessional design so I don't think they have much money. If they're chopped up the interiors of them would need to be realistic too.
From Copilot ("are abortion photos faked?")

The authenticity of abortion-related photos can vary widely. Some images used in anti-abortion campaigns have been criticized for being misleading or manipulated, often showing fetuses at later stages of development than the majority of abortions occur. On the other hand, there are efforts to provide accurate depictions of abortion procedures to counter misinformation.

It doesn't say they are faked using latex or whatever might be used in movies.

There are many things that can happen. Just because a photo exists doesn't mean that the photo is of whatever it's claimed to be. And while making a 3d object for a movie would be expensive pasting stuff together in photoshop is not.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The point is that the week 37 abortion where the mother and child were healthy happened at all, not that it happens a lot. It shows that the alledged "up until birth" abortion policy can literally mean that.

but you do not know AT ALL what the circumstances are because it’s just one point in a bunch of statistics.

YOU

DO

NOT

KNOW.

Full Stop.

"AT ALL"?
It says "terminations for psychosocial indications only". That means there were only psychosocial reasons for the abortion and there weren't significant health problems with the mother and foetus. So we do know things about the circumstances.

Not to mention it says NOTHING about the life of the fetus. An "abortion" at 37 weeks is INDUCED LABOR (terminate the PREGNANCY). You just seem to ignore this.

It was listed as an abortion, not as a delivery. I agree with you that at 37 weeks it's normally going to be a delivery--that's what makes me think this is a case of bad data.

And there's still no response as to which of those bins to put thalidomide. I don't see it fitting any of them, I could see a doctor picking the psychosocial one because there certainly are psychological issues and no other category fits.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

So you don't even know if the fetus was already dead or was incompatible with LIFE. You don't have a clue.

Not dead--look at the reason. But I could see an incompatible-with-life issue that might not be covered by the other bins.

 

[excreationist]

It doesn't say they are faked using latex or whatever might be used in movies.

There are many things that can happen. Just because a photo exists doesn't mean that the photo is of whatever it's claimed to be. And while making a 3d object for a movie would be expensive pasting stuff together in photoshop is not.

This is from a DVD that I hadn't watched before called The Shocker from 2005 (it was included for free with another DVD I bought). At the end it talked about abortion. It had a couple of minutes of moving videos so that would be hard to photoshop.

Spoiler: WARNING very shocking alledged abortion footage

Spoiler: you asked for it

Spoiler: are you sure?

I haven't watched all of it but it makes me feel sad. I'm not saying it should be criminalised though. edit: the footage of bits of bodies/heads/etc makes me feel repulsed.

 

[aupmanyav]

I haven't watched all of it but it makes me feel sad. I'm not saying it should be criminalised though. edit: the footage of bits of bodies/heads/etc makes me feel repulsed.

Not criminal if it goes with the law in India, otherwise criminal, punishable for the patient as well as the doctor. I go with Indian laws. Conditional (Medical Termination of Pregnancy).

 

[excreationist]

Some somewhat recent abortion news:

Trump pardons anti-abortion protesters a day before annual March for Life rally

The pardons come on the eve of the annual March for Life along the National Mall, where Trump is expected to address the crowd virtually.

www.nbcnews.com

President Donald Trump signed an executive order pardoning 23 anti-abortion-rights activists

It says they had been jailed:

Trump pardons 23 peaceful pro-life activists jailed under Biden

thecatholicherald.com