excreationist
Married mouth-breather
Btw I’ve seen some aborted foetus photos and felt repulsed at the chopped up ones but still was curious and looked at a few more.
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If the baby can survive outside the womb is abortion "murder"?
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Toni
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That in no way alters the fact that you pursued a girl who was far too young for such attention turns from an 18 year old and you do not seem the get that this was entirely inappropriate in your part. Nothing that girl could have said or done would alter that fact one iota.
You were not just wrong but you were creepily wrong. And you are still wrong for not recognizing that. Creepily so.
Toni
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I am sorry for your wife. At least I assume she is your wife fecund that you did not start giving her your attention time when she was still a minor.
You misunderstand.
I'm showing a category of problems that doesn't fit the list--but it's going to be shoehorned into the list anyway. When you force such shoehorning you will get bad data. I see no reason to think you found anything more than an example of this in action. Then you get people who don't know anything about the data pouncing on such anomalies as if they mean something.
excreationist
Married mouth-breather
Well the first time I ever had mutual attraction, dated, etc, someone was at the age of 29. My wife is a few months younger than me. I think self-help/relationship/PUA materials helped me. BTW when I was in high school I read a book about body language and eye contact - before I read that I didn't realise that eye contact is important. I remember in primary school an aboriginal girl shouted at me "don't stare!" but I didn't think I was even looking at her. And in home videos I was talking to my dad who was holding the camera but didn't look at him at all.
Your "statistics" mean nothing.
garbage said:
That's enough to damn it. And note that since they chose that route not only can we declare it worthless but they wouldn't have bothered unless it's false. Thus we are left with a near certainty that those "statistics" are wrong.
Objection: While this is clearly garbage the fact that they sampled 1,000 isn't a problem. When dealing with large numbers (say, the population of even a large city) the accuracy is almost totally determined by the sample size. And the number needed to reduce the error margin goes up rapidly at that point, making greater accuracy an extremely expensive proposition.
The problem here is sampling bias. If you want accurate poll results you have to bend over backwards to get a properly random sample of the population. This is hard at best and simply out of the question on something like this.
Suppose I were to post a poll here asking people what their native language is. Do you think it would produce the true answer that English is in third place??
Once again, you show that you keep falling for deception.BTW here is a list of some psychosocial reasons:
FACT SHEET: Why do women have abortions? - Lutherans for Life
Below are some research findings carried out onwww.lutheransforlife.lca.org.au
"list of some psychosocial reasons". Note that it doesn't say the list is complete.
excreationist
Married mouth-breather
I'm blaming others for not pointing out the problem. I only stopped stealing things because I got caught twice and was lectured.
Lawrence Kohlberg's stages of moral development - Wikipedia
Like I said some people believe Mary was as young as 12 and I would have thought that was ok at the time.
BTW recently a girl who went to high school with me said that she was sorry what she had been saying about me at high school. I asked her what she meant and she refused to say. Maybe it had something to do with criticising me about the younger girls I had pursued. No one really teased or criticised me in high school but they did in university.
Also about the 13 year old girl - one of her favourite albums had lyrics
Korn (Ft. Slimkid3) – Cameltosis
[Intro: Slimkid3] / Yeah, huh / [Verse 1: Slimkid3] / I should've learned it from the start what I was in for / She break a tin full, she copied, we exchanged some info / Called
genius.com
I told her it was crude and she seemed uncomfortable.
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We have no good way to separate the effects of getting the lead out with the effects of abortion. Some combination of them is pretty clearly responsible for halving the crime rate. It looks like abortion is the bigger factor but there's too much noise to be sure.I thought this was interesting though it goes against my stance of being against abortion in this thread
Legalized abortion and crime effect - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
I saw the movie "Freakonomics" a while ago.
Never knew it was made into a movie. The book had a lot of good stuff in it. I've seen some of their stuff challenged about details, but I've never seen any major debunking. But they come to a lot of conclusions that are not politically correct and the reality is that it's hard to get funding for studying the sort of things they were exposing.
And you have some reason to think the photos are real??
excreationist
Married mouth-breather
They look real. If they had to make lots of them look real (e.g. if it was for a movie) I think that would cost quite a lot. The websites with the photos often have a very unprofessional design so I don't think they have much money. If they're chopped up the interiors of them would need to be realistic too.
From Copilot ("are abortion photos faked?")
It doesn't say they are faked using latex or whatever might be used in movies.
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Toni
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You still are unable to recognize that you were being exceedingly inappropriate with a child too young to appreciate any of what you were putting her through or intended to put her through.I'm blaming others for not pointing out the problem. I only stopped stealing things because I got caught twice and was lectured.
Maybe I was at stage 2:Lawrence Kohlberg's stages of moral development - Wikipedia
Like I said some people believe Mary was as young as 12 and I would have thought that was ok at the time.
BTW recently a girl who went to high school with me said that she was sorry what she had been saying about me at high school. I asked her what she meant and she refused to say. Maybe it had something to do with criticising me about the younger girls I had pursued. No one really teased or criticised me in high school but they did in university.
Also about the 13 year old girl - one of her favourite albums had lyrics
Korn (Ft. Slimkid3) – Cameltosis
[Intro: Slimkid3] / Yeah, huh / [Verse 1: Slimkid3] / I should've learned it from the start what I was in for / She break a tin full, she copied, we exchanged some info / CalledI told her it was crude and she seemed uncomfortable.
I won’t be replying to you any further because I’m convinced you are getting pleasure out of being told you were a would be rapist —and still attempting to blame the child. You apparently think this makes you powerful or beyond blame because of some Bible story.
You are pathetic.
excreationist
Married mouth-breather
I don't get any pleasure in being called a potential rapist because I think it isn't justified (i.e. I think the accusations are unfair). I don't think I blamed the girl (well I did say that she wasn't as chaste as you might assume and she did thank me for the phone calls). I was blaming others for not saying anything. No one ever said anything about age being a problem - even in the last couple of years. Though there is you. It took my own reflection to realise that I was in danger of getting in trouble with the law.
Part of my beliefs are based on the book "The Disappearance of Childhood" by Neil Postman but that is complicated.
Your comments are like how I was criticised when I was in university but not when I was in high school. I think people left me alone because I had very underdeveloped social skills. I consider myself to have a worse level of maturity at 18 years old than the 13 year old. I didn't really know about small talk and like I said I'd only just learnt about eye contact. I think the 13 year old talked about having banter with a guy her age. I never really understood banter until I was maybe in my late 20s or early 30s.
I used to think I was a "creep" in my early 20s. I was sometimes suicidal. But now I am somewhat comfortable with my "dark side" rather than being filled with "toxic shame". I just think I was very misguided in the past and blame others for never saying anything about the problem with age. I also rang another girl that was in her teens when I was in university and the mother's response was just that she "had a boyfriend".
So you're wrong.
Being rejected by the girl made me feel small. I would have only felt powerful if I was able to be smooth like a skilled PUA but I think at the time my social skills were a lot worse than hers. In about year 11 I asked out a girl for about the first time - basically she was walking in the opposite direction and said something like "would you go out with me?" She replied "NO!!!". I had no idea of what she might say when I asked her. Now I have some kind of idea what type of reaction I'd get. I just thought about computers and computer games and YEC. I had no interest in gossip like people my age did but now I do.
In high school I was accused of being a stalker (though I wasn't at the time) and even that offended me, let alone being accused of being a rapist.
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Toni
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You accept zero responsibility. It would be one thing if you said: I can’t believe I did not realize how inappropriate my behavior was! I’m so glad it didn’t go further!
You aren’t saying that. You are blaming the girl for not being ‘chaste enough whatever the gell you think that means and as if it made a difference.
It does not. It makes no difference at all.
You seem to recognize that some of your behavior was delayed. Great. That should give you some foundation for understanding that laws exist precisely to protect individuals who lack the ability to understand the implications of what is being said or done.
Just like that girl likely did not realize explicitly the danger she was in from you. Likely she was flattered or thought she should be. Likely she had no idea how to stop the calls it dies not sound as though you would have taken hints.
Girls are not socialized the way boys are. Girls are largely socialized to placate, to deflect, to avoid conflict, to be polite and not to hurt the feelings of others.
Because a girl who makes someone angry who is much bigger and stronger than she is is at risk of physical harm, assault, rape, murder. So girls placate, demure. A girl at thirteen is likely to not recognize the danger but to feel more ‘mature’ and attractive if some older guy—in this case, a young adult, pays attention to in to her. She is much less likely to recognize that she is in danger from someone such as yourself. She may think she can handle herself but most probably, she could not avoid the sex you wanted to force upon her.
No matter how immature you were at that age, you still intended to do that girl, that child harm. You intended to have sex with her if possible.
At 18 it was your job to recognize that the age difference, and her youth made such conversations and intends highly inappropriate and harmful to the girl.
Certainly you are old enough to recognize that now, today. While I agree that other adults should have intervened more forcefully, I wonder just how much they tried to impress upon you just how inappropriate and wrong your actions were. My guess is that you did not hear them because you did not want to hear them. You do not want to hear now that you are writing about attempting to lure a child into a situation where you could rape her, You were trying to rape a child.
You are blaming others for not stopping you sooner. You are comparing her to the biblical Mary, whom I will point out was a virgin. Not that it matters whether biblical Mary was a virgin or this poor child you were trying to lure to a basement so you could rape her was a virgin: she was a child! You were an adult! You are blaming her for talking to you. You are blaming her for not being pure enough. For shaving her legs.
That is beyond creepy. Please seek therapy to help you to understand the gravity of your actions and the potential harm you did to a CHILD even though you did not actually rape her.
You aren’t saying that. You are blaming the girl for not being ‘chaste enough whatever the gell you think that means and as if it made a difference.
It does not. It makes no difference at all.
You seem to recognize that some of your behavior was delayed. Great. That should give you some foundation for understanding that laws exist precisely to protect individuals who lack the ability to understand the implications of what is being said or done.
Just like that girl likely did not realize explicitly the danger she was in from you. Likely she was flattered or thought she should be. Likely she had no idea how to stop the calls it dies not sound as though you would have taken hints.
Girls are not socialized the way boys are. Girls are largely socialized to placate, to deflect, to avoid conflict, to be polite and not to hurt the feelings of others.
Because a girl who makes someone angry who is much bigger and stronger than she is is at risk of physical harm, assault, rape, murder. So girls placate, demure. A girl at thirteen is likely to not recognize the danger but to feel more ‘mature’ and attractive if some older guy—in this case, a young adult, pays attention to in to her. She is much less likely to recognize that she is in danger from someone such as yourself. She may think she can handle herself but most probably, she could not avoid the sex you wanted to force upon her.
No matter how immature you were at that age, you still intended to do that girl, that child harm. You intended to have sex with her if possible.
At 18 it was your job to recognize that the age difference, and her youth made such conversations and intends highly inappropriate and harmful to the girl.
Certainly you are old enough to recognize that now, today. While I agree that other adults should have intervened more forcefully, I wonder just how much they tried to impress upon you just how inappropriate and wrong your actions were. My guess is that you did not hear them because you did not want to hear them. You do not want to hear now that you are writing about attempting to lure a child into a situation where you could rape her, You were trying to rape a child.
You are blaming others for not stopping you sooner. You are comparing her to the biblical Mary, whom I will point out was a virgin. Not that it matters whether biblical Mary was a virgin or this poor child you were trying to lure to a basement so you could rape her was a virgin: she was a child! You were an adult! You are blaming her for talking to you. You are blaming her for not being pure enough. For shaving her legs.
That is beyond creepy. Please seek therapy to help you to understand the gravity of your actions and the potential harm you did to a CHILD even though you did not actually rape her.
excreationist
Married mouth-breather
Well recently I did tell my friend that I'd known since high school - who is now also a psychologist. I told him I was really lucky that didn't go further (I used your words but I can't remember the exact words I used).
I mean she was a fan of lyrics like:
Maybe she would have had sex at an early age anyway. I think it would have been worse if I corrupted young girls that were "chaste".
No they honestly didn't say anything. They never gave age as a reason for not pursuing a girl. My dad said her father didn't want me ringing her and never specified the reason. I understand your points about the mind of the girl though I didn't quote them.
The problem was that she brought up the topic of her shaving her legs in the shower. BTW I was still on good terms with both of her parents after the phone calls ended. We had warm conversations.
BTW here is why I ended the phone calls (not sure of the exact wording)
ME: Can we meet up sometime?
HER: I don't know
ME: What about this year
HER: I don't know
ME: What about next year
HER: I don't know
(something like that)
Another way a phonecall ended with a girl:
ME: Do you like me or not
HER: I like you as a friend
I at least understand that it is against the law and I'd get into a lot of trouble. In some cultures it wouldn't really be a problem. I'm just saying that it isn't really a clear case of morality like murder is. And again, it is illegal.
On the topic of rape - my wife has been raped multiple times but I think I was the first person she's told. I asked her about it because she can have very severe anxiety and I was aware that rape can be somewhat common amongst some mentally ill people. I got her to talk to her psychologist about it.
Thanks for continuing to discuss this with me. I've also talked to my psychologist about this. I think if I had still thought I was essentially a huge creep I probably wouldn't have attracted my wife. BTW a relevant ebook is "without embarrassment" which is against "toxic shame". But anyway my actions when I was younger were a huge mistake and luckily weren't very successful. Luckily I wasn't my former flatmate - he's been in jail a lot for things like having 4000+ photos and 2000+ videos of child abuse material for children as young as 4 years old.
Maybe it was watching the movie Lolita at the cinema (with Jeremy Irons) that I realised the problem with having an underage girlfriend (the police came after him). I also liked the murder scene at the end (not really relevant).
One of the only significant things that people criticised me about while I was in high school was a monotone chuckle I sometimes had a lot without being aware of it. It took two people to point it out for me to stop it (like how I had to be caught twice stealing for it to stop). I guess it's like Beavis and Butthead's chuckles (and I really like that show).
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excreationist
Married mouth-breather
I only learnt that in my 20s after I read an ebook saying things like that. Previously when I heard an excuse I assumed the excuse was true and genuine rather than them using it as a way to reject something based on other reasons.
Toni
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I think you need to try to look at those events from the point of view of the 13 year old girl.
A family friend starts paying her attention. It may have been flattering at first or it may just have been awkward. I have no idea. But probably one of those two feelings were present, maybe both. She may have also had some idea that you are not good at reading other people and tried extra hard to be nice. This ‘being nice to you’ might not have been her idea but her parents might have suggested that you were a bit awkward and might benefit from conversation with her, not considered any risk to their child. At 13, she lacked the knowledge and social skills to be able to accurately assess the situation or to know how to deal with it.
As conversations became more sexual in nature she probably felt trapped—obligated to continue to be nice to a family friend but very much put off. She may have had some misplaced sympathy for you, realizing you were socially awkward. Very few 18 year olds are interested in talking with 13 year olds without very specific reasons, not all of them harmless. Your reasons were NOT harmless. Your intentions were to have sex with a child. You don’t like hearing that it would have been rape but that’s exactly what it would have been. Rape. Given that she was less enthusiastic (and likely increasingly troubled) by your phone calls, it is likely it would have been forcible rape, not statutory rape.
I don’t know how much she disclosed to her parents. Likely it would have been very awkward for both families who surely recognized your lack of awareness that you were being inappropriate. You are very fortunate that there were no police involved and that no one was physically violent in their attempts to dissuade you. My father would have beaten the living shit out of you. Likely law enforcement would not have done anything to my father. It would have taken every bit of my self control to not beat the living shit out of anyone who did that to any of my children.
It is likely the child was counseled to disengage and to feel sympathy for you rather than counseled that NO ONE ever had the right to speak to her they way you were talking to her, that she deserved to be safe and comfortable in all of her relationships and that her feelings were more important than the feelings of someone who wanted to rape her. As should have been done.
Yes, I am continuing use the word rape because it is important that you stop minimizing your intentions ( even if that is not the word you used) and recognize that you in fact did that child grave harm with your behavior, even if not nearly as bad as having actually raped her.
It is good the phone calls stopped and that you did not rape this child.
It is very troubling that although you now recognize that you were very close to ‘getting in trouble with the law’ you are unwilling or unable to acknowledge that you were likely causing this child an increasing amount of anxiety and discomfort. And that what you tried to do was illegal and morally reprehensible and repugnant.
Because it is wrong to have sexual contact with a child.
It does not matter what the social mores are in other cultures but most people realize that so called child brides and child marriage are wrong because they are incredibly damaging to the child at the time of their marriage and throughout their lives, causing grave threats to their physical and mental health and their ability to act on their own behalf, to obtain and benefit from education and employment and to enjoy life as an autonomous person.
A family friend starts paying her attention. It may have been flattering at first or it may just have been awkward. I have no idea. But probably one of those two feelings were present, maybe both. She may have also had some idea that you are not good at reading other people and tried extra hard to be nice. This ‘being nice to you’ might not have been her idea but her parents might have suggested that you were a bit awkward and might benefit from conversation with her, not considered any risk to their child. At 13, she lacked the knowledge and social skills to be able to accurately assess the situation or to know how to deal with it.
As conversations became more sexual in nature she probably felt trapped—obligated to continue to be nice to a family friend but very much put off. She may have had some misplaced sympathy for you, realizing you were socially awkward. Very few 18 year olds are interested in talking with 13 year olds without very specific reasons, not all of them harmless. Your reasons were NOT harmless. Your intentions were to have sex with a child. You don’t like hearing that it would have been rape but that’s exactly what it would have been. Rape. Given that she was less enthusiastic (and likely increasingly troubled) by your phone calls, it is likely it would have been forcible rape, not statutory rape.
I don’t know how much she disclosed to her parents. Likely it would have been very awkward for both families who surely recognized your lack of awareness that you were being inappropriate. You are very fortunate that there were no police involved and that no one was physically violent in their attempts to dissuade you. My father would have beaten the living shit out of you. Likely law enforcement would not have done anything to my father. It would have taken every bit of my self control to not beat the living shit out of anyone who did that to any of my children.
It is likely the child was counseled to disengage and to feel sympathy for you rather than counseled that NO ONE ever had the right to speak to her they way you were talking to her, that she deserved to be safe and comfortable in all of her relationships and that her feelings were more important than the feelings of someone who wanted to rape her. As should have been done.
Yes, I am continuing use the word rape because it is important that you stop minimizing your intentions ( even if that is not the word you used) and recognize that you in fact did that child grave harm with your behavior, even if not nearly as bad as having actually raped her.
It is good the phone calls stopped and that you did not rape this child.
It is very troubling that although you now recognize that you were very close to ‘getting in trouble with the law’ you are unwilling or unable to acknowledge that you were likely causing this child an increasing amount of anxiety and discomfort. And that what you tried to do was illegal and morally reprehensible and repugnant.
Because it is wrong to have sexual contact with a child.
It does not matter what the social mores are in other cultures but most people realize that so called child brides and child marriage are wrong because they are incredibly damaging to the child at the time of their marriage and throughout their lives, causing grave threats to their physical and mental health and their ability to act on their own behalf, to obtain and benefit from education and employment and to enjoy life as an autonomous person.
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Playball40
Veteran Member
Not to mention it says NOTHING about the life of the fetus. An "abortion" at 37 weeks is INDUCED LABOR (terminate the PREGNANCY). You just seem to ignore this.