If the baby can survive outside the womb is abortion "murder"?

[excreationist]

The point is that the week 37 abortion where the mother and child were healthy happened at all, not that it happens a lot. It shows that the alledged "up until birth" abortion policy can literally mean that.

but you do not know AT ALL what the circumstances are because it’s just one point in a bunch of statistics.

YOU

DO

NOT

KNOW.

Full Stop.

"AT ALL"?
It says "terminations for psychosocial indications only". That means there were only psychosocial reasons for the abortion and there weren't significant health problems with the mother and foetus. So we do know things about the circumstances.

 

[Toni]

The point is that the week 37 abortion where the mother and child were healthy happened at all, not that it happens a lot. It shows that the alledged "up until birth" abortion policy can literally mean that.

but you do not know AT ALL what the circumstances are because it’s just one point in a bunch of statistics.

YOU

DO

NOT

KNOW.

Full Stop.

"AT ALL"?
It says "terminations for psychosocial indications only". That means there were only psychosocial reasons for the abortion and there weren't significant health problems with the mother and foetus. So we do know things about the circumstances.

Not really. You absolutely do not know what those circumstances are. As far as we know, the mother was an 11 year old girl raped by her father and nobody knew she was pregnant until she was 37 weeks pregnant—fairly plausible because she may not have yet had her first period and her family and church were castigating her as a whore and meanwhile she was still being abused by family member(s). Or she was having a psychotic break for some mental health issue and required med Cation to stop her from harming herself. Unless you believe that it was preferable to lose both mother and fetus rather than just fetus. Or that the mother was entirely expendable. Or a thousand other scenarios.

 

[Toni]

@Elixir

Also do you believe that ordinarily a pregnancy at 37 weeks involves a human baby?

As usual in this thread people are ignoring the more difficult questions.

No. You are ignoring when people express an opinion.

Yeah sorry I was being hostile and sometimes hypocritical.

YOU are ignoring the question of WHY you think that YOU get a say about what someone else does with her body.

Though I originally was saying that maybe late-term abortion could be considered murder I wasn't saying it should be banned if that makes sense. I was kind of playing the devil's advocate.

Well, cool then. Speculating about whether or not it should be a crime for someone to undergo a legal procedure that you will never face yourself is totally just fine.

 

[excreationist]

YOU are ignoring the question of WHY you think that YOU get a say about what someone else does with her body.

Though I originally was saying that maybe late-term abortion could be considered murder I wasn't saying it should be banned if that makes sense. I was kind of playing the devil's advocate.

Well, cool then. Speculating about whether or not it should be a crime for someone to undergo a legal procedure that you will never face yourself is totally just fine.

Politicians can also speculate whether it should be a crime even if they're males - so voters should be able to too.

 

[excreationist]

but you do not know AT ALL what the circumstances are because it’s just one point in a bunch of statistics.


YOU

DO

NOT

KNOW.

Full Stop.

"AT ALL"?
It says "terminations for psychosocial indications only". That means there were only psychosocial reasons for the abortion and there weren't significant health problems with the mother and foetus. So we do know things about the circumstances.

Not really. You absolutely do not know what those circumstances are. As far as we know, the mother was an 11 year old girl raped by her father and nobody knew she was pregnant until she was 37 weeks pregnant—fairly plausible because she may not have yet had her first period and her family and church were castigating her as a whore and meanwhile she was still being abused by family member(s). Or she was having a psychotic break for some mental health issue and required med Cation to stop her from harming herself. Unless you believe that it was preferable to lose both mother and fetus rather than just fetus. Or that the mother was entirely expendable. Or a thousand other scenarios.

That example was for psychosocial reasons only - these include "timing, feelings of un-readiness to be a mother, existing children, influence of others (family/partner), and inadequate financial resources or housing". i.e. not rape or issues with the health of the mother or foetus. At 37 weeks it is likely the foetus could be delivered alive (since there weren't problems with its health) so I'm not sure why it had to be delivered stillborn rather than alive. But I don't think the laws should be changed since I'm not a Christian.

 

[Elixir]

Btw, I’m guessing that a big part of the issue is the her part. And another part is that you have some romanticized ideas about pregnancy, childbirth and child rearing.

I'm guessing Excre is like so many others who got an extreme dose of early morals conditioning, to the point where they don't even know or think about why they feel like there's something wrong with other people being allowed to obtain abortions without consent of The Authorities.

When I was thinking about whether it could be called "murder" I never thought that it should be a crime.

If it COULD be called murder it COULD be called a crime. Murder is a crime, whether it should be or not.

My point was that I'm not aware of people who already want to ban lawnmowers.

Right. It's not a moral issue because there's nobody to blame except the dead guy who immolated or sliced himself up.
(Murder by lawnmower cases excepted, and they're probably about as frequent as these extreme "case study" cases are.)

People don't want to ban abortion because banning it would save a lot of fetuses, or because it would make for a kinder gentler society, or reduce the pain and suffering of pregnant women, or even because they think fetuses are conscious and suffer pain like an adult.
Nope, not an actual moral, ethical or logical thing about the vehement insistence that there need to be laws, and prescribed punishments:

They want to - and will vote to - ban abortion as an expression of the revulsion they feel at the mere thought
- especially of the late term abortion of a viable fetus.
It's supremely easy to understand. Such an act is unarguably vile, so criminalizing it need not be logical, ethical, moral, or in any other way rational, regardless of inhumane consequences that may result.

 

[Jarhyn]

@Elixir

Also do you believe that ordinarily a pregnancy at 37 weeks involves a human baby?

As usual in this thread people are ignoring the more difficult questions.

No. You are ignoring when people express an opinion.

Yeah sorry I was being hostile and sometimes hypocritical.

YOU are ignoring the question of WHY you think that YOU get a say about what someone else does with her body.

Though I originally was saying that maybe late-term abortion could be considered murder I wasn't saying it should be banned if that makes sense. I was kind of playing the devil's advocate.

Well, cool then. Speculating about whether or not it should be a crime for someone to undergo a legal procedure that you will never face yourself is totally just fine.

Damn, this might be the internet, but I can actually feel some of that rage boiling off you from over here in Minnesota.

This is exactly how I feel every time trans threads pop up!

YOU are ignoring the question of WHY you think that YOU get a say about what someone else does with her body.

Though I originally was saying that maybe late-term abortion could be considered murder I wasn't saying it should be banned if that makes sense. I was kind of playing the devil's advocate.

Well, cool then. Speculating about whether or not it should be a crime for someone to undergo a legal procedure that you will never face yourself is totally just fine.

Politicians can also speculate whether it should be a crime even if they're males - so voters should be able to too.

No, they can't, or at least they shouldn't, and neither should voters.

They should do the work to understand basic science literacy and then look for people who do the work and then apply that literacy to figure out which ones are full of shit.

We have all the evidence that speculation is NOT necessary. Most of it has been laid out.

Speculation in the presence of real evidence is only ever done by shysters who don't like using evidence because it says they are full of shit.

 

[excreationist]

So basically abortion up to birth is legal in Australia (as long as two doctors approve it). I find it disturbing and sometimes I tell Christians about it. At the moment I'm leaning towards not allowing very late term abortion and believe that they could put the baby up for adoption. But I'm not going to become an activist who tries to help this happen (e.g. attending protests, etc).
So that's my opinion. Maybe I can't argue that this opinion is justified.

 

[Elixir]

Politicians can also speculate whether it should be a crime even if they're males - so voters should be able to too.

No, they can't, or at least they shouldn't, and neither should voters.
They should do the work to understand basic science literacy and then look for people who do the work and then apply that literacy to figure out which ones are full of shit.
We have all the evidence that speculation is NOT necessary. Most of it has been laid out.
Speculation in the presence of real evidence is only ever done by shysters who don't like using evidence because it says they are full of shit.

Right? Especially that last bit. IMHO a sublime fear of eternal torture can cause a person to remain willing to ignore facts, even if doing so causes harm to others.
It's easy to cop out on this especially if you're male. It's sooo complicated, and why try, or trust yourself to figure it out, when you can simply say "I hereby adopt the position of the XYZ Church on abortion, so go attack THEM if you don't like my position". That's about as far as many people think it through.
Personally I number churches among the shysters described/referred to by Jahryn.

I find it disturbing

QED
Don't fret, Ex. It IS disturbing. That's a normal human reaction.
Your Peace, however is not The Peace, and there are not, nor should there be, laws against disturbing it.

 

[excreationist]

Btw, I’m guessing that a big part of the issue is the her part. And another part is that you have some romanticized ideas about pregnancy, childbirth and child rearing.

I'm guessing Excre is like so many others who got an extreme dose of early morals conditioning, to the point where they don't even know or think about why they feel like there's something wrong with other people being allowed to obtain abortions without consent of The Authorities.

Actually my morals weren't consistent with morality as a YEC . I didn't have a problem with sex before marriage, drugs, abortion, etc. Apathy regarding morality basically. I also stole things when I was about 11 (but stopped after being caught too much). At the end of year 12 I suggested students put a lot of weed killer on the school oval and write things on it. I also was pursuing a girl who was about 13 when I was 18 - she was happy to talk on the phone but didn't want to meet up which was lucky for me (so I didn't end up having sex with her). I actually told her I wanted her to come to my friend's house and watch pornos. No one ever told me it was bad to pursue her but I realised the problem a few years later. Well my dad said her father had a problem with it (but no specifics) but I replied that the girl seemed happy to talk to me on the phone. So I had very limited insight into morality.

When I was thinking about whether it could be called "murder" I never thought that it should be a crime.

If it COULD be called murder it COULD be called a crime. Murder is a crime, whether it should be or not.

Like my YEC morality sometimes my reasoning didn't make sense.

 

[Elixir]

Actually my morals weren't consistent with morality as a YEC . I didn't have a problem with sex before marriage, drugs, abortion, etc. Apathy regarding morality basically. I also stole things when I was about 11. At the end of year 12 I suggested students put a lot of weed killer on the school oval and write things on it.

Morality aside, YECkery is inconsistent with reality, period. Pre-adolescent behavior is generally irrelevant IMO, but when you were suggesting week killer writing in year 12, WHAT did you suggest they write?

Like my YEC morality sometimes my reasoning didn't make sense.

I guess some effects outlast the proclamation of freedom.

 

[excreationist]

Actually my morals weren't consistent with morality as a YEC . I didn't have a problem with sex before marriage, drugs, abortion, etc. Apathy regarding morality basically. I also stole things when I was about 11. At the end of year 12 I suggested students put a lot of weed killer on the school oval and write things on it.

Morality aside, YECkery is inconsistent with reality, period. Pre-adolescent behavior is generally irrelevant IMO, but when you were suggesting week killer writing in year 12, WHAT did you suggest they write?

Well they didn't really seem interested in the idea so I didn't think of what to write. BTW I updated that post about myself as an 18 year old where I was still a YEC. I had zero thoughts that pursuing a 13 year old could involve any problems. In high school I would just blurt out things without thinking. I also chuckled a lot for no reason without realising. I had to be caught in the act on two occasions before I stopped. (i.e. I could have a lack of awareness)

 

[Toni]

YOU are ignoring the question of WHY you think that YOU get a say about what someone else does with her body.

Though I originally was saying that maybe late-term abortion could be considered murder I wasn't saying it should be banned if that makes sense. I was kind of playing the devil's advocate.

Well, cool then. Speculating about whether or not it should be a crime for someone to undergo a legal procedure that you will never face yourself is totally just fine.

Politicians can also speculate whether it should be a crime even if they're males - so voters should be able to too.

Speculate? Sure. I can speculate about whether or not men should be allowed to vote or hold public office, or have vasectomies on demand without their wive’s written permission or access to erectile dysfunction medications. Why are there never any threads about limiting men’s rights to have sex or reproduce? Or laws about such?

Why should politicians legislate anything regarding medical decisions? Few have attended medical school and afaik none hold licenses in gynecology, obstetrics or neonatology. Most who get their opinions published seem so absolutely ignorant about basic human biology and about women’s bodies, they should be disqualified from ever making any decisions about women’s health or women’s rights at all.

 

[Toni]

but you do not know AT ALL what the circumstances are because it’s just one point in a bunch of statistics.


YOU

DO

NOT

KNOW.

Full Stop.

"AT ALL"?
It says "terminations for psychosocial indications only". That means there were only psychosocial reasons for the abortion and there weren't significant health problems with the mother and foetus. So we do know things about the circumstances.

Not really. You absolutely do not know what those circumstances are. As far as we know, the mother was an 11 year old girl raped by her father and nobody knew she was pregnant until she was 37 weeks pregnant—fairly plausible because she may not have yet had her first period and her family and church were castigating her as a whore and meanwhile she was still being abused by family member(s). Or she was having a psychotic break for some mental health issue and required med Cation to stop her from harming herself. Unless you believe that it was preferable to lose both mother and fetus rather than just fetus. Or that the mother was entirely expendable. Or a thousand other scenarios.

That example was for psychosocial reasons only - these include "timing, feelings of un-readiness to be a mother, existing children, influence of others (family/partner), and inadequate financial resources or housing". i.e. not rape or issues with the health of the mother or foetus. At 37 weeks it is likely the foetus could be delivered alive (since there weren't problems with its health) so I'm not sure why it had to be delivered stillborn rather than alive. But I don't think the laws should be changed since I'm not a Christian.

Or the partner of the pregnant woman was just killed/diagnosed with a terminal illness/was accused or convicted of a crime or had been holding the pregnant woman in captivity and she just managed to escape.

We Do Not Know.
Categories when compiling statistics are not generally terribly informative and in fact, are sometimes misleading to avoid providing specific information about the single/small number of individuals.

We don’t know.

 

[Elixir]

Well they didn't really seem interested in the idea so I didn't think of what to write.

Aah... opportunities lost. If only you had done it yourself instead of suggesting they do it ... it would probably have become a venerated tradition by today.

BTW I updated that post about myself as an 18 year old where I was still a YEC.

Your behavior at the time does not and would not reflect the sort of conditioning to which I was referring. It's subliminal. I recognize it in myself, despite being raised by avowed agnostics who were actually atheists, and who told me religions were "interesting" and encouraged me to read up on them. I found them mostly boring, but did get the message that it's better not to lie cheat and steal, cause needless harm to other people or animals etc. - the golden rule stuff. It's all still there, too, exerting its subversive influence on my decision-making.
I try not to let it control me to my own detriment, and instead experience the rightness or wrongness of things in real time, and try to limit THAT to that which is proximate. Keeps me out of trouble so far.

 

[Toni]

Btw, I’m guessing that a big part of the issue is the her part. And another part is that you have some romanticized ideas about pregnancy, childbirth and child rearing.

I'm guessing Excre is like so many others who got an extreme dose of early morals conditioning, to the point where they don't even know or think about why they feel like there's something wrong with other people being allowed to obtain abortions without consent of The Authorities.

Actually my morals weren't consistent with morality as a YEC . I didn't have a problem with sex before marriage, drugs, abortion, etc. Apathy regarding morality basically. I also stole things when I was about 11 (but stopped after being caught too much). At the end of year 12 I suggested students put a lot of weed killer on the school oval and write things on it. I also was pursuing a girl who was about 13 when I was 18 - she was happy to talk on the phone but didn't want to meet up which was lucky for me (so I didn't end up having sex with her). I actually told her I wanted her to come to my friend's house and watch pornos. No one ever told me it was bad to pursue her but I realised the problem a few years later. Well my dad said her father had a problem with it (but no specifics) but I replied that the girl seemed happy to talk to me on the phone. So I had very limited insight into morality.

When I was thinking about whether it could be called "murder" I never thought that it should be a crime.

If it COULD be called murder it COULD be called a crime. Murder is a crime, whether it should be or not.

Like my YEC morality sometimes my reasoning didn't make sense.

So because she was unwilling to meet up with you, she escaped being raped is what you mean. A thirteen year old is not able to consent to sex with an 18 year old. A 13 year old is not mature enough to anticipate
Sexual aggression or to advocate for her own needs or to even avoid such scenarios.


What you have demonstrated is a long history of not regarding females as real people with feelings and thoughts and needs of their own and a willingness to harm a 13 year old for your own pleasure.

I doubt you have thought of it that way but that’s exactly what you wanted to do: Convince someone much younger than yourself to allow you to perform sex acts on them when they were too young to be able to advocate for themselves effectively or to legally consent. FFS she didn’t even know how to get out of phone calls with some dude who wanted her to watch porn with him in a basement. That is a really really fucked up thing you tried to do.

 

[excreationist]

Or the partner of the pregnant woman was just killed/diagnosed with a terminal illness/was accused or convicted of a crime or had been holding the pregnant woman in captivity and she just managed to escape.

We Do Not Know.
Categories when compiling statistics are not generally terribly informative and in fact, are sometimes misleading to avoid providing specific information about the single/small number of individuals.

We don’t know.

I don't see the difference between delivering a dead baby at 37 weeks or delivering it alive and giving it up for adoption if the mother and foetus were healthy. I kind of like the late term abortion in a way that I am interested in overly violent movies.

 

[Toni]

Or the partner of the pregnant woman was just killed/diagnosed with a terminal illness/was accused or convicted of a crime or had been holding the pregnant woman in captivity and she just managed to escape.

We Do Not Know.
Categories when compiling statistics are not generally terribly informative and in fact, are sometimes misleading to avoid providing specific information about the single/small number of individuals.

We don’t know.

I don't see the difference between delivering a dead baby at 37 weeks or delivering it alive and giving it up for adoption if the mother and foetus were healthy. I kind of like the late term abortion in a way that I am interested in overly violent movies.

You really do not have to write any more to convince me that you are not an individual capable of having the tiniest bit of empathy or sympathy or understanding of anyone at all.

 

[excreationist]

So because she was unwilling to meet up with you, she escaped being raped is what you mean. A thirteen year old is not able to consent to sex with an 18 year old. A 13 year old is not mature enough to anticipate

Sexual aggression or to advocate for her own needs or to even avoid such scenarios.

What you have demonstrated is a long history of not regarding females as real people with feelings and thoughts and needs of their own and a willingness to harm a 13 year old for your own pleasure.

I doubt you have thought of it that way but that’s exactly what you wanted to do: Convince someone much younger than yourself to allow you to perform sex acts on them when they were too young to be able to advocate for themselves effectively or to legally consent. FFS she didn’t even know how to get out of phone calls with some dude who wanted her to watch porn with him in a basement. That is a really really fucked up thing you tried to do.

I stole quite a lot of things when I was younger. I got caught and got a lecture from the friend's mother and then not long after I stole from the friend again and got caught again. So that was an instance where I was being discouraged from it.

But as far as the 13 year old went, a lot of people knew about it but didn't say anything. My dad said the girls' dad was unhappy with it but didn't give any further reason e.g. that she was too young.

As far as the phone calls go, she sometimes thanked me for ringing. She also told me that she shaves her legs in the shower every day (without me asking her about it).

Her reason for not going to my friend's house was that she didn't know him.

I think I subconsiously thought the following:

The Bible does not specify Mary's exact age when she gave birth to Jesus, but historical and cultural context suggests she was likely between 12 and 16 years old

 

[excreationist]

I don't see the difference between delivering a dead baby at 37 weeks or delivering it alive and giving it up for adoption if the mother and foetus were healthy. I kind of like the late term abortion in a way that I am interested in overly violent movies.

You really do not have to write any more to convince me that you are not an individual capable of having the tiniest bit of empathy or sympathy or understanding of anyone at all.

But I have been married since 2012... surely that counts for something. Perhaps I'm reasoning that if multiple people want the foetus to be aborted then it's ok if I am morbidly fascinated by it...

What I meant is if people think the abortion of a 37 week foetus is ok when the mother and foetus are healthy, then why not just deliver it alive and put it up for adoption? I don't understand the idea that the foetus must be killed in that situation. But of course I might have flawed reasoning.