If the baby can survive outside the womb is abortion "murder"?

[Elixir]

@Elixir

Also do you believe that ordinarily a pregnancy at 37 weeks involves a human baby?

As usual in this thread people are ignoring the more difficult questions.

I addressed it directly with "so what?"
If you can phrase "the more difficult questions" in forms that can be answered, you might get answers.
WHAT ABOUT THE LAWNMOWERS? Should they be outlawed before they kill again?
That is a difficult question.

do you believe that ordinarily a pregnancy at 37 weeks involves a human baby?

Not a difficult question at all. The answer is NO. That's the way language works.
A 37 week fetus is not a baby, it's a fetus. If it was born at 36.9 weeks and survived, it was a slightly premature baby 37 weeks after mom got pregnant.

 

[TomC]

@Elixir

Also do you believe that ordinarily a pregnancy at 37 weeks involves a human baby?

As usual in this thread people are ignoring the more difficult questions.

Kinda like your post #378?
Tom

 

[excreationist]

@Elixir

Also do you believe that ordinarily a pregnancy at 37 weeks involves a human baby?

As usual in this thread people are ignoring the more difficult questions.

Kinda like your post #378?
Tom

So you seriously want me to discuss lawnmower deaths?

 

[Elixir]

@Elixir

Also do you believe that ordinarily a pregnancy at 37 weeks involves a human baby?

As usual in this thread people are ignoring the more difficult questions.

Kinda like your post #378?
Tom

Right? Thing is, I answered his stupid question and he ignored the answer and whined that nobody addressed it.
When people resort to confrontational "do you believe ___(insert something they know the other doesn't believe)" questions, it's a dead giveaway that emotion has overridden rationality.

 

[excreationist]

@Elixir

Also do you believe that ordinarily a pregnancy at 37 weeks involves a human baby?

As usual in this thread people are ignoring the more difficult questions.

I addressed it directly with "so what?"
If you can phrase "the more difficult questions" in forms that can be answered, you might get answers.
WHAT ABOUT THE LAWNMOWERS? Should they be outlawed before they kill again?
That is a difficult question.

do you believe that ordinarily a pregnancy at 37 weeks involves a human baby?

Not a difficult question at all. The answer is NO. That's the way language works.
A 37 week fetus is not a baby, it's a fetus. If it was born at 36.9 weeks and survived, it was a slightly premature baby 37 weeks after mom got pregnant.

Well I guess I can’t convince you that an abortion at 37 weeks when the mother and baby are healthy could be seen as a bad thing. So say a person injures a mother who was 37 weeks pregnant and she had a miscarriage. Did that involve the death of a baby or must it be called a foetus?

 

[Elixir]

@Elixir

Also do you believe that ordinarily a pregnancy at 37 weeks involves a human baby?

As usual in this thread people are ignoring the more difficult questions.

Kinda like your post #378?
Tom

So you seriously want me to discuss lawnmower deaths?

Why not? I have a lawnmower. I'm not pregnant.
We were discussing needless deaths, as we assumed equality of late term fetuses with people who have hopes, dreams, friends relatives. I basically granted you the equivalence (which I think is false) for argument's sake, and have given extensive arguments illustrating that going after doctors for abortions is a waste of time, money, human suffering and human life.
The lawnmower example is just to illustrate how far down the list of causes of human suffering and death doctors should be.
I don't believe you're really that obtuse.

 

[Elixir]

I can’t convince you that an abortion at 37 weeks when the mother and baby are healthy could be seen as a bad thing

Right and a doctor can't kill a guy who is already dead from lawnmower.
I think an abortion of a viable fetus is a terrible thing. Truly terrible. Does THAT matter?
So is dying while mowing the lawn, and it happens a lot more frequently. Imagine it! Your hopes and dreams die right there with you on the lawn, your spouse, your friends and relatives all gather and mourn. It's terrible, especially for the living. Of which I am currently one.

 

[excreationist]

@Elixir
Let’s say you had a university assignment weighing up the morality of abortion and you spend quite a lot of it talking about lawnmower deaths. I guess you would think there’s no problem with that.
Or a politician should bring up the topic of lawnmower deaths when discussing abortion.
I guess you think me not wanting to discuss lawnmower deaths much shows that my abortion arguments are weak.

 

[excreationist]

I think an abortion of a viable fetus is a terrible thing. Truly terrible. Does THAT matter?

Is a 37 week old fetus viable?

 

[Elixir]

So say a person injures a mother who was 37 weeks pregnant and she had a miscarriage. Did that involve the death of a baby or must it be called a foetus?

Why "say" any such thing? Were you there?
Do you have any need to "call it" ANYTHING?
Was it your sister?
What's magic about 37?
If someone causes the mother to suffer there should be recourse, as a general rule.
If her suffering involved the loss of a pregnancy, that should be an aggravating factor. If they did it intentionally, that's even worse. If they did it to watch the mother scream in agony, that's even WORSE! Life in prison or mental hospital.

Now you have my opinion. That an $5 $7 might get you a latté.

DO YOU HAVE A POINT?
WHAT DOES MY OPINION HAVE TO DO WITH IT?
I prefer to stand on facts, and you come up lamentable short.

 

[Elixir]

Let’s say you had a university assignment weighing up the morality of abortion and you spend quite a lot of it talking about lawnmower deaths. I guess you would think there’s no problem with that.

Who cares what I would not have a problem with? That's not relevant. The fact that you keep reverting, is a major tell BTW.
Quit dodging the question.

Is a 37 week old fetus viable?

Are you a fucking idiot?
IANAD, and I know goddam well from personal experience that there is no certainty about a fetus' viability.
I do believe that most mothers carrying 37 week fetuses think they are viable. And statistically afaik it is very likely that they are viable - almost certainly with today's technology.
SO WHAT?

 

[Elixir]

Let’s say you had a university assignment weighing up the morality of abortion

Let's NOT "say" shit that has nothing to do with the question at hand.
I dropped out of highschool, so never had to waste my time trying to sell the importance of lawnmower deaths to university morality wonks.
Nonetheless I keep answering your stupid questions while you ignore mine.
Anyhow, we are not in a University taking moral instruction from a Professor of Weighing Abortion Morality.
Why is a lawnmower death less preventable, less of a loss, and more "moral" than the death of a fetus?

Your disinclination to discuss lawnmower deaths is forgiveable only if you can show a major difference that makes them less tragic. After all, I don't see people jumping up and down about the 951 dead PEOPLE every year... nor a lot of public weeping over actual needless abortions, regardless of the hand-wringing about "probable" ones.

 

[Spacetime Inhabitant]

Apparently abortion was a key reason Labor lost the unlosable 2019 election:

PUT LABOR LAST. Labor has legalised abortion up to birth in Queensland.

PUT LABOR LAST. Labor has legalised abortion up to birth in Queensland.

laborlast.org.au

Apparently abortion was also a factor in the Trump election.

After that Labor tried to not talk about abortion so much and sometimes tries to build relationships with people of faith.

The anti-abortion movement in Australia has basically no power, and is unpopular with the vast majority of Australians, so there is no way that they can affect an election result in Australia. One has to look for other actual reasons for any election outcome.
It is a bipartisan issue with both major parties, and supported by the Greens and independents.

1:30 All of the polls suggested Shorten would romp home.
2:00 In the top 3 reasons Labor lost was abortion - the review said Labor had been too extreme on abortion and it had hurt it in some of those marginal faith-based seats particular in NSW but also some other parts of the country. 3:30 Western Sydney and the Bible-belt of NSW. Massive swings against Labor.
2:25 a policy that said that all funding for public hospitals was conditional on the provision of abortion. They didn't think that would be too controversial
So was her statement about some review finding that abortion was in the top 3 reasons that Labor lost the 2019 election a lie? Was her mention of swings in marginal faith-based seats also a lie?
She also said that after that election Albo scrubbed this policy from the ALP site. 3:40
It goes for 16 minutes but I'll just leave the rest for now.

The woman is a fanatic who will say all sorts of things. Have you better evidence than this youtube video from this woman?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Yeah. Video, extreme claims. There's no reason to even try to fact check.

I gave evidence for some of the most extreme claims - like the story of the abortion of a 37 week old. I guess you are just assuming that a lot of those claims are impossible and will ignore any evidence I give.

Your source did not give the actual reason. I get very suspicious of people with an agenda using non-specific data like that. Look through that list of causes--I see nothing on it that covers a non-congenital problem with the fetus. Where would thalidomide fall on that list of reasons? (And, yes, thalidomide is still around--the same effect that makes it so brutal on the fetus can be medically useful against undesired growth. As well as some others that can do some very nasty things to the fetus.)

 

[Loren Pechtel]

@bilby
What about this directly from the horse's mouth ("Emily's list")

Empowering pharmacies to prescribe abortion pill ‘worth exploring’: Emily’s List

www.emilyslist.org.au

Empowering pharmacies to prescribe abortion pill ‘worth exploring’: Emily’s List
An influential group of female Labor members is calling on the government to consider further broadening access to the abortion pill and allowing pharmacists to prescribe it without a script from a doctor or nurse.

So are people here still saying that that video about Emily's List was just made up?
Emily's List is clearly strongly pro-abortion.
In terms of it being "secret" - how many people have heard of it? But I've shown that the group actually exists.

This has nothing to do with abortions after viability. Mifepristone causes contractions, not death. If you take it at 35 weeks, you "might" cause premature labor, that's all. The risk is more to the MOTHER than the fetus at this point or any point beyond 12 weeks gestation.

Yup--you'll find it on obstetric crash carts.

 

[excreationist]

do you believe that ordinarily a pregnancy at 37 weeks involves a human baby?

Not a difficult question at all. The answer is NO. That's the way language works.
A 37 week fetus is not a baby, it's a fetus. If it was born at 36.9 weeks and survived, it was a slightly premature baby 37 weeks after mom got pregnant.

So say a person injures a mother who was 37 weeks pregnant and she had a miscarriage. Did that involve the death of a baby or must it be called a foetus?

Why "say" any such thing? Were you there?
Do you have any need to "call it" ANYTHING?
Was it your sister?
What's magic about 37?
If someone causes the mother to suffer there should be recourse, as a general rule.
If her suffering involved the loss of a pregnancy, that should be an aggravating factor. If they did it intentionally, that's even worse. If they did it to watch the mother scream in agony, that's even WORSE! Life in prison or mental hospital.

Now you have my opinion. That an $5 $7 might get you a latté.

DO YOU HAVE A POINT?
WHAT DOES MY OPINION HAVE TO DO WITH IT?
I prefer to stand on facts, and you come up lamentable short.

My point is I think that if the baby is very close to being due people would call it a baby. e.g. "did the baby kick you?" rather than "did the foetus kick you?" Calling the unborn baby a baby suggests it has more of a "right to life".

@Elixir

Also do you believe that ordinarily a pregnancy at 37 weeks involves a human baby?

As usual in this thread people are ignoring the more difficult questions.

I addressed it directly with "so what?"
If you can phrase "the more difficult questions" in forms that can be answered, you might get answers.
WHAT ABOUT THE LAWNMOWERS? Should they be outlawed before they kill again?
That is a difficult question.

Lawnmower deaths are usually accidents. Doctors who perform abortions do it deliberately. Many people are against abortions. Who is suggesting that lawnmowers should be banned? It seems like a straw man. Cars kill far more people but most people don't want them banned. Car deaths are also caused by accidents (usually). Lawnmowers and cars have benefits that could outweigh the safety issues.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

If truly elective events were frequent, these would be attached to statistics, and there would be something there that could convince the likes of me or Loren. Anything approaching it has been published only by sources which have bad track records for cooking statistics.

Or is being taken out of context. Something can be true and not mean what they claim it means.

I'm thinking of some data showing a very low but non-zero number of hysterectomies done in trans minors. Hey, hysterectomy is a common operation because the high growth rate means there's all sorts of things that can go wrong with it. Hysterectomy on a minor? It happens. Being trans doesn't magically make such cases disappear.

 

[excreationist]

Yeah. Video, extreme claims. There's no reason to even try to fact check.

I gave evidence for some of the most extreme claims - like the story of the abortion of a 37 week old. I guess you are just assuming that a lot of those claims are impossible and will ignore any evidence I give.

Your source did not give the actual reason.

It said "terminations for psychosocial indications only" i.e. the reason was to do with psychosocial reasons and the health of the mother and baby weren't a problem. Were you after specifics about what mental health, etc, reason it was? Like it said in post #334 "If you're looking for specific examples, they are not commonly documented publicly due to privacy concerns"

I get very suspicious of people with an agenda using non-specific data like that. Look through that list of causes--I see nothing on it that covers a non-congenital problem with the fetus. Where would thalidomide fall on that list of reasons? (And, yes, thalidomide is still around--the same effect that makes it so brutal on the fetus can be medically useful against undesired growth. As well as some others that can do some very nasty things to the fetus.)

 

[Spacetime Inhabitant]

do you believe that ordinarily a pregnancy at 37 weeks involves a human baby?

Not a difficult question at all. The answer is NO. That's the way language works.
A 37 week fetus is not a baby, it's a fetus. If it was born at 36.9 weeks and survived, it was a slightly premature baby 37 weeks after mom got pregnant.

So say a person injures a mother who was 37 weeks pregnant and she had a miscarriage. Did that involve the death of a baby or must it be called a foetus?

Why "say" any such thing? Were you there?
Do you have any need to "call it" ANYTHING?
Was it your sister?
What's magic about 37?
If someone causes the mother to suffer there should be recourse, as a general rule.
If her suffering involved the loss of a pregnancy, that should be an aggravating factor. If they did it intentionally, that's even worse. If they did it to watch the mother scream in agony, that's even WORSE! Life in prison or mental hospital.

Now you have my opinion. That an $5 $7 might get you a latté.

DO YOU HAVE A POINT?
WHAT DOES MY OPINION HAVE TO DO WITH IT?
I prefer to stand on facts, and you come up lamentable short.

My point is I think that if the baby is very close to being due people would call it a baby. e.g. "did the baby kick you?" rather than "did the foetus kick you?" Calling the unborn baby a baby suggests it has more of a "right to life".

@Elixir

Also do you believe that ordinarily a pregnancy at 37 weeks involves a human baby?

As usual in this thread people are ignoring the more difficult questions.

I addressed it directly with "so what?"
If you can phrase "the more difficult questions" in forms that can be answered, you might get answers.
WHAT ABOUT THE LAWNMOWERS? Should they be outlawed before they kill again?
That is a difficult question.

Lawnmower accidents kill people. Doctors who perform abortions do it deliberately. Many people are against abortions. Who is suggesting that lawnmowers should be banned? It seems like a straw man. Cars kill far more people but most people don't want them banned. Car deaths are also caused by accidents (usually). Lawnmowers and cars have benefits that could outweigh the safety issues.

RE the bolded bit - So, many people are against abortions, so what? This is no basis for social norms. Many people dislike Brussel sprouts , but that is not a reason to ban that.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

According to CDC data, this cause of death (coded as W28) resulted in 951 deaths in the U.S. last year.
Don’t you think this practice should be outlawed before going after single-digit causes?
I mean, it’s not just the frequency, it’s that it happens AT ALL!!
But NINE HUNDRED FIFTY ONE DEATHS?
PER YEAR?

The cause is “contact with a powered lawnmower”.
This is SO preventable!

Yikes! What are people doing with them to get that degree of contact?? I have always considered them something that the blades must be treated with respect because of their potential to maim, but I find myself astonished at the kill rate.