If the baby can survive outside the womb is abortion "murder"?

[excreationist]

https://www.safercare.vic.gov.au/si... and Children 2010 and 2011 Annual Report.pdf
Page 141 (Table 6.20b)
There you go - evidence of an abortion at 37 weeks for psychosocial indications only...

 

[excreationist]

Apparently abortion was a key reason Labor lost the unlosable 2019 election:

PUT LABOR LAST. Labor has legalised abortion up to birth in Queensland.

PUT LABOR LAST. Labor has legalised abortion up to birth in Queensland.

laborlast.org.au

Apparently abortion was also a factor in the Trump election.

After that Labor tried to not talk about abortion so much and sometimes tries to build relationships with people of faith.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

This is a 4 minute video:

"They killed a 37 week healthy baby and the mum is not in an emergency situation" - "two doctors approved that"
37 weeks means it is in the 9th month.
1:00 "a baby can be killed right up until birth"
3:40 "the same law across the country, abortion up until birth is legal everywhere" (Australia)
BTW there is a politcal reason why the laws are so extreme but I don't want to hurt certain political parties.

And why do you believe that this is anything but disinformation?

 

[excreationist]

This is a 4 minute video:

"They killed a 37 week healthy baby and the mum is not in an emergency situation" - "two doctors approved that"
37 weeks means it is in the 9th month.
1:00 "a baby can be killed right up until birth"
3:40 "the same law across the country, abortion up until birth is legal everywhere" (Australia)
BTW there is a politcal reason why the laws are so extreme but I don't want to hurt certain political parties.

And why do you believe that this is anything but disinformation?

See posts #361 and #337. What do you think is not true in that video?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

If she made it up I think that could harm her reptuation more than it could damage the Labor party.

I don't know who "she" is, nor what the "it" she might have made up is - I have no intention of caring, or of watching the video.

But I can tell you without fear of error that your claim here is deeply flawed. YouTube content creators don't have to care one iota about their own reputations, and can cause massively disproportionate reputational damage to others. Particularly during election campaigns, where finding out you were misled after you cast your vote does the harm they sought, and when they can return at the next election under a brand new username, secure in the expectation that almost none of their audience will renember being fooled by them last time around.

Anything seen on YouTube should be assumed to be nonsense. That goes tenfold for political content, and a thousandfold for political content during an election campaign.

Yeah. Video, extreme claims. There's no reason to even try to fact check.

 

[excreationist]

Yeah. Video, extreme claims. There's no reason to even try to fact check.

I gave evidence for some of the most extreme claims - like the story of the abortion of a 37 week old. I guess you are just assuming that a lot of those claims are impossible and will ignore any evidence I give.

 

[Spacetime Inhabitant]

Apparently abortion was a key reason Labor lost the unlosable 2019 election:

PUT LABOR LAST. Labor has legalised abortion up to birth in Queensland.

PUT LABOR LAST. Labor has legalised abortion up to birth in Queensland.

laborlast.org.au

Apparently abortion was also a factor in the Trump election.

After that Labor tried to not talk about abortion so much and sometimes tries to build relationships with people of faith.

The anti-abortion movement in Australia has basically no power, and is unpopular with the vast majority of Australians, so there is no way that they can affect an election result in Australia. One has to look for other actual reasons for any election outcome.
It is a bipartisan issue with both major parties, and supported by the Greens and independents.

 

[Elixir]

Yeah. Video, extreme claims. There's no reason to even try to fact check.

I gave evidence for some of the most extreme claims - like the story of the abortion of a 37 week old. I guess you are just assuming that a lot of those claims are impossible and will ignore any evidence I give.

Not so much that, as the fact that such events are so extremely rare that one single case becomes news, and two or three makes a cause celeb. “A lot of those claims” doesn’t exist. It’s one or two here and there. There IS NO “lot of those claims”.
OTOH “a lot of” those women who suffer and die due to abortion laws, are very real indeed.
What kind of perverted values make this a good trade, a moral trade or an ethical trade?
Only placing the value of a fetus above that of a woman can possibly justify it.

 

[Playball40]

Yeah. Video, extreme claims. There's no reason to even try to fact check.

I gave evidence for some of the most extreme claims - like the story of the abortion of a 37 week old. I guess you are just assuming that a lot of those claims are impossible and will ignore any evidence I give.

I call bullshit on your "evidence". That said, abortion is termination of a pregnancy.

 

[Playball40]

@bilby
What about this directly from the horse's mouth ("Emily's list")

Empowering pharmacies to prescribe abortion pill ‘worth exploring’: Emily’s List

www.emilyslist.org.au

Empowering pharmacies to prescribe abortion pill ‘worth exploring’: Emily’s List
An influential group of female Labor members is calling on the government to consider further broadening access to the abortion pill and allowing pharmacists to prescribe it without a script from a doctor or nurse.

So are people here still saying that that video about Emily's List was just made up?
Emily's List is clearly strongly pro-abortion.
In terms of it being "secret" - how many people have heard of it? But I've shown that the group actually exists.

This has nothing to do with abortions after viability. Mifepristone causes contractions, not death. If you take it at 35 weeks, you "might" cause premature labor, that's all. The risk is more to the MOTHER than the fetus at this point or any point beyond 12 weeks gestation.

 

[Elixir]

I thought the official website would be the best place to find information about it and where their name came from.

70-something million American idiots thought the official Trump website was the best place to learn about Trump.

 

[Jarhyn]

Yeah. Video, extreme claims. There's no reason to even try to fact check.

I gave evidence for some of the most extreme claims - like the story of the abortion of a 37 week old. I guess you are just assuming that a lot of those claims are impossible and will ignore any evidence I give.

The issue here that you are going to run into (and it's a perfectly valid issue to have put in your way), is this:

If you wish to convince someone who is rational of a claim, the claim must be true, and supported by statistical evidence rather than mere case study.

I studied to be a professional Christian. I went to camps and retreats and seminars and conventions for that shit.

Then AFTER that, I went to college to study to be a professional academic, then how to be a professional software engineer.

When I was learning to be a professional Christian, we were taught to use "case study" to make arguments, like you are now.

In college, I had that thoroughly lectured out of me, because it turns out NOBODY likes that shit; it gives bad results and leads to shit like anti-vaxxers and "Reefer Madness", "Satanic Panic", and other such bullshit purity movements designed to hide and perfect fascist populist messaging.

I won't say it doesn't happen.

In fact, I'm pretty sure that every time this thread gets reincarnated, it gets brought up that it does happen, and I know this because I'm usually the one that brings it up just so people stop fighting over red herrings:

Wealthy Republicans and other Conservative sorts are pretty infamous for the lengths they go to force abortions on their daughters and mistresses.

I'm sure that some folks intentionally cause the event that triggers medically necessary third trimester abortion through directing injury at a fetus (pushing pregnant people down stairs, punching them, etc). In fact, I see it happening more often due to "shitty men" rather than "selfish women" that late term abortions happen.

That said, it is vanishingly rare for such events to happen. There are handfuls of such events that have ever happened, mostly because the means to make them happen are already limited to 1% or less of society.

If truly elective events were frequent, these would be attached to statistics, and there would be something there that could convince the likes of me or Loren. Anything approaching it has been published only by sources which have bad track records for cooking statistics.

 

[excreationist]

Yeah. Video, extreme claims. There's no reason to even try to fact check.

I gave evidence for some of the most extreme claims - like the story of the abortion of a 37 week old. I guess you are just assuming that a lot of those claims are impossible and will ignore any evidence I give.

Not so much that, as the fact that such events are so extremely rare

The point is that the week 37 abortion where the mother and child were healthy happened at all, not that it happens a lot. It shows that the alledged "up until birth" abortion policy can literally mean that.

 

[excreationist]

@bilby
What about this directly from the horse's mouth ("Emily's list")

Empowering pharmacies to prescribe abortion pill ‘worth exploring’: Emily’s List

www.emilyslist.org.au

Empowering pharmacies to prescribe abortion pill ‘worth exploring’: Emily’s List
An influential group of female Labor members is calling on the government to consider further broadening access to the abortion pill and allowing pharmacists to prescribe it without a script from a doctor or nurse.

So are people here still saying that that video about Emily's List was just made up?
Emily's List is clearly strongly pro-abortion.
In terms of it being "secret" - how many people have heard of it? But I've shown that the group actually exists.

This has nothing to do with abortions after viability. Mifepristone causes contractions, not death. If you take it at 35 weeks, you "might" cause premature labor, that's all. The risk is more to the MOTHER than the fetus at this point or any point beyond 12 weeks gestation.

The abortion pill is for doing abortions. No one claimed it was for late term abortions. In the case of late term abortions an injection to the heart can be involved.

 

[excreationist]

Yeah. Video, extreme claims. There's no reason to even try to fact check.

I gave evidence for some of the most extreme claims - like the story of the abortion of a 37 week old. I guess you are just assuming that a lot of those claims are impossible and will ignore any evidence I give.

I call bullshit on your "evidence".

So that table doesn't say that in 2011 there was a 37 week abortion due to psychosocial indications only?

That said, abortion is termination of a pregnancy.

Yes that is why I marked the part that said "termination".

 

[Elixir]

According to CDC data, this cause of death (coded as W28) resulted in 951 deaths in the U.S. last year.
Don’t you think this practice should be outlawed before going after single-digit causes?
I mean, it’s not just the frequency, it’s that it happens AT ALL!!
But NINE HUNDRED FIFTY ONE DEATHS?
PER YEAR?

The cause is “contact with a powered lawnmower”.
This is SO preventable!

 

[excreationist]

Apparently abortion was a key reason Labor lost the unlosable 2019 election:

PUT LABOR LAST. Labor has legalised abortion up to birth in Queensland.

PUT LABOR LAST. Labor has legalised abortion up to birth in Queensland.

laborlast.org.au

Apparently abortion was also a factor in the Trump election.

After that Labor tried to not talk about abortion so much and sometimes tries to build relationships with people of faith.

The anti-abortion movement in Australia has basically no power, and is unpopular with the vast majority of Australians, so there is no way that they can affect an election result in Australia. One has to look for other actual reasons for any election outcome.
It is a bipartisan issue with both major parties, and supported by the Greens and independents.

1:30 All of the polls suggested Shorten would romp home.
2:00 In the top 3 reasons Labor lost was abortion - the review said Labor had been too extreme on abortion and it had hurt it in some of those marginal faith-based seats particular in NSW but also some other parts of the country. 3:30 Western Sydney and the Bible-belt of NSW. Massive swings against Labor.
2:25 a policy that said that all funding for public hospitals was conditional on the provision of abortion. They didn't think that would be too controversial
So was her statement about some review finding that abortion was in the top 3 reasons that Labor lost the 2019 election a lie? Was her mention of swings in marginal faith-based seats also a lie?
She also said that after that election Albo scrubbed this policy from the ALP site. 3:40
It goes for 16 minutes but I'll just leave the rest for now.

 

[excreationist]

According to CDC data, this cause of death (coded as W28) resulted in 951 deaths in the U.S. last year.
Don’t you think this practice should be outlawed before going after single-digit causes?
I mean, it’s not just the frequency, it’s that it happens AT ALL!!
But NINE HUNDRED FIFTY ONE DEATHS?
PER YEAR?

The cause is “contact with a powered lawnmower”.
This is SO preventable!

Is there legislation that decides whether or not doctors can cause those deaths? Also do you believe that ordinarily a pregnancy at 37 weeks involves a human baby?

 

[Elixir]

According to CDC data, this cause of death (coded as W28) resulted in 951 deaths in the U.S. last year.
Don’t you think this practice should be outlawed before going after single-digit causes?
I mean, it’s not just the frequency, it’s that it happens AT ALL!!
But NINE HUNDRED FIFTY ONE DEATHS?
PER YEAR?

The cause is “contact with a powered lawnmower”.
This is SO preventable!

Is there legislation that decides whether or not doctors can cause those deaths? Also do you believe that ordinarily a pregnancy at 37 weeks involves a human baby?

DOCTORS? WTF are you on about? BIG LAWNMOWER® is responsible for almost a thousand PREVENTABLE deaths of PEOPLE every year in the US alone, and you're ranting about DOCTORS?
Doctors SAVE lives, dude! Like MILLIONS of them. Every year. If a few fetuses slip through the cracks, that's a shame but does it mean we should go after a set of people who save millions of lives annually?
How many lives have ever been saved by lawnmowers?
(not counting men not killed by their wives for not mowing the lawn)

If lawnmowers ever approached the saves/kills ratio enjoyed by doctors, people would be worshiping them! By now there would be creationist cults alleging their sanctity, and Saint John's last name would be Deere. Prayza load!

Is there legislation that decides whether or not doctors can cause those deaths?

I'll let you figure that out for yourself. Start with the fact that these people have already met their demise by contact with a powered lawnmower, then ask yourself if a doctor is able to bring them back to life and kill them again. Having gotten that far, maybe you can explain to your own satisfaction why there are no laws against doctors killing people who have already been killed by lawnmowers.
SOMEONE should hang for it though - maybe lawnmower designers, manufacturers, salesmen, wives of people who let them buy a deadly lawnmower - anyone, just as long as somebody pays!
But anyhow 951 dead people is many many MANY times more important than a couple of dead fetuses.
IMHO - YMMV

 

[excreationist]

@Elixir

Also do you believe that ordinarily a pregnancy at 37 weeks involves a human baby?

As usual in this thread people are ignoring the more difficult questions.