If the baby can survive outside the womb is abortion "murder"?

[Loren Pechtel]

It doesn't say they are faked using latex or whatever might be used in movies.

There are many things that can happen. Just because a photo exists doesn't mean that the photo is of whatever it's claimed to be. And while making a 3d object for a movie would be expensive pasting stuff together in photoshop is not.

This is from a DVD that I hadn't watched before called The Shocker from 2005 (it was included for free with another DVD I bought). At the end it talked about abortion. It had a couple of minutes of moving videos so that would be hard to photoshop.

Spoiler: WARNING very shocking alledged abortion footage

Spoiler: you asked for it

Spoiler: are you sure?

View attachment 50382View attachment 50383View attachment 50384View attachment 50385

I haven't watched all of it but it makes me feel sad. I'm not saying it should be criminalised though. edit: the footage of bits of bodies/heads/etc makes me feel repulsed.

Big, big problems with your screenshots.

#1: Why did they do a c-section for an abortion?? No, that's almost certainly not an abortion.

#2: A tape measure?? I can't imagine a tape measure being permitted in the OR because how do you clean all those interior surfaces??

#2, #4: Both of these look wrong to me. Major fetal defect, perhaps?

They gathered some gruesome footage, doesn't mean it really shows what they claim it is.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Some somewhat recent abortion news:

Trump pardons anti-abortion protesters a day before annual March for Life rally

The pardons come on the eve of the annual March for Life along the National Mall, where Trump is expected to address the crowd virtually.

www.nbcnews.com

President Donald Trump signed an executive order pardoning 23 anti-abortion-rights activists

It says they had been jailed:

Trump pardons 23 peaceful pro-life activists jailed under Biden

thecatholicherald.com

And that's evidence?!

He did it, the default assumption should be that it was the wrong action.

 

[excreationist]

Some somewhat recent abortion news:

Trump pardons anti-abortion protesters a day before annual March for Life rally

The pardons come on the eve of the annual March for Life along the National Mall, where Trump is expected to address the crowd virtually.

www.nbcnews.com

President Donald Trump signed an executive order pardoning 23 anti-abortion-rights activists

It says they had been jailed:

Trump pardons 23 peaceful pro-life activists jailed under Biden

thecatholicherald.com

And that's evidence?!

He did it, the default assumption should be that it was the wrong action.

I'm just saying it is relevant to this abortion topic.

 

[excreationist]

It doesn't say they are faked using latex or whatever might be used in movies.

There are many things that can happen. Just because a photo exists doesn't mean that the photo is of whatever it's claimed to be. And while making a 3d object for a movie would be expensive pasting stuff together in photoshop is not.

This is from a DVD that I hadn't watched before called The Shocker from 2005 (it was included for free with another DVD I bought). At the end it talked about abortion. It had a couple of minutes of moving videos so that would be hard to photoshop.

Spoiler: WARNING very shocking alledged abortion footage

Spoiler: you asked for it

Spoiler: are you sure?

View attachment 50382View attachment 50383View attachment 50384View attachment 50385

I haven't watched all of it but it makes me feel sad. I'm not saying it should be criminalised though. edit: the footage of bits of bodies/heads/etc makes me feel repulsed.

Big, big problems with your screenshots.

#1: Why did they do a c-section for an abortion?? No, that's almost certainly not an abortion.

It's a waste bin.

#2: A tape measure?? I can't imagine a tape measure being permitted in the OR because how do you clean all those interior surfaces??

So does that mean that the footage was fake? I thought it would be useful to know how long the foetus is.

#2, #4: Both of these look wrong to me. Major fetal defect, perhaps?

Sometimes the footage involves damaging the foetuses including chopping them up in order to get them out of the womb.

They gathered some gruesome footage, doesn't mean it really shows what they claim it is.

So those 2 minutes of footage didn't show aborted foetuses?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Some somewhat recent abortion news:

Trump pardons anti-abortion protesters a day before annual March for Life rally

The pardons come on the eve of the annual March for Life along the National Mall, where Trump is expected to address the crowd virtually.

www.nbcnews.com

President Donald Trump signed an executive order pardoning 23 anti-abortion-rights activists

It says they had been jailed:

Trump pardons 23 peaceful pro-life activists jailed under Biden

thecatholicherald.com

And that's evidence?!

He did it, the default assumption should be that it was the wrong action.

I'm just saying it is relevant to this abortion topic.

How? His track record is that he almost always gets it wrong. Thus the fact that he said something is if anything an indication that it's false, not that it's true.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

It doesn't say they are faked using latex or whatever might be used in movies.

There are many things that can happen. Just because a photo exists doesn't mean that the photo is of whatever it's claimed to be. And while making a 3d object for a movie would be expensive pasting stuff together in photoshop is not.

This is from a DVD that I hadn't watched before called The Shocker from 2005 (it was included for free with another DVD I bought). At the end it talked about abortion. It had a couple of minutes of moving videos so that would be hard to photoshop.

Spoiler: WARNING very shocking alledged abortion footage

Spoiler: you asked for it

Spoiler: are you sure?

View attachment 50382View attachment 50383View attachment 50384View attachment 50385

I haven't watched all of it but it makes me feel sad. I'm not saying it should be criminalised though. edit: the footage of bits of bodies/heads/etc makes me feel repulsed.

Big, big problems with your screenshots.

#1: Why did they do a c-section for an abortion?? No, that's almost certainly not an abortion.

It's a waste bin.

Even more evidence it's wrong. That's tissue--it goes in biohazard, not regular trash.

#2: A tape measure?? I can't imagine a tape measure being permitted in the OR because how do you clean all those interior surfaces??

So does that mean that the footage was fake? I thought it would be useful to know how long the foetus is.

I'm saying it's an inappropriate tool for the situation. Why is anyone handling it like that other than immediately after removal? And immediately after removal is the OR. And tape measures can't be sterilized.

#2, #4: Both of these look wrong to me. Major fetal defect, perhaps?

Sometimes the footage involves damaging the foetuses including chopping them up in order to get them out of the womb.

Those pictures aren't chopped up. They're just a bit wrong, they don't look like normal human structure.

They gathered some gruesome footage, doesn't mean it really shows what they claim it is.

So those 2 minutes of footage didn't show aborted foetuses?

I have no idea what they show. I'm just saying there are many red flags about the truthfulness.

 

[excreationist]

I'm just saying it is relevant to this abortion topic.

How? His track record is that he almost always gets it wrong. Thus the fact that he said something is if anything an indication that it's false, not that it's true.

Well I at least didn't know that so many pro-life people have gone to jail.

 

[excreationist]

#1: Why did they do a c-section for an abortion?? No, that's almost certainly not an abortion.

It's a waste bin.

Even more evidence it's wrong. That's tissue--it goes in biohazard, not regular trash.

Of course it would be a biohazard waste bin. That's still a form of waste bin.

#2: A tape measure?? I can't imagine a tape measure being permitted in the OR because how do you clean all those interior surfaces??

So does that mean that the footage was fake? I thought it would be useful to know how long the foetus is.

I'm saying it's an inappropriate tool for the situation. Why is anyone handling it like that other than immediately after removal? And immediately after removal is the OR. And tape measures can't be sterilized.

Well I find the length of the foetus to be more meaningful than its weight (I mean many people wouldn't know how long a foetus of a particular weight is). I thought if they touched the tape measure after they've finished with the woman then it doesn't matter how sterile the tape measure is. Note they seem to be wearing gloves.

#2, #4: Both of these look wrong to me. Major fetal defect, perhaps?

Sometimes the footage involves damaging the foetuses including chopping them up in order to get them out of the womb.

Those pictures aren't chopped up. They're just a bit wrong, they don't look like normal human structure.

There are photos of partial heads, etc, though. I'm sure there'd be some pro-life expert that would be able to explain why they look like they do.

They gathered some gruesome footage, doesn't mean it really shows what they claim it is.

So those 2 minutes of footage didn't show aborted foetuses?

I have no idea what they show. I'm just saying there are many red flags about the truthfulness.

Like the "red flag" of there being a tape measure?

 

[Jarhyn]

I'm sure there'd be some

And you would be wrong.

The professional Christian circuit doesn't operate that way; if something is offered and looks plausible for the purposes of propaganda, they use it 'in good faith' without attribution.

If those images were uncovered tomorrow as 100% fraudulent, you would be seeing them used seriously still for the next 20 years, possibly forever.

It's kind of sad because exactly the sorts of things they need to be chasing down (accurate reference data and chains of custody on evidence) they operate entirely absent of.

Its like a bad Facebook meme, ya? And not to mention most of those stock images are at least 30 years old (which @Loren Pechtel should be made aware of). We have no idea where they came from at this point or why they were made nor when.

Of course, that doesn't stop a Christian from believing it to be true and becoming yet another Liar for Jesus.

 

[GenesisNemesis]

That's what Elon Musk says. I tend to agree with him.

Oh well if Elon Musk says it it must be true.

 

[excreationist]

@Loren Pechtel

Spoiler: Alledged aborted foetus footage and photos

Spoiler: It's even worse than last time

So there's dozens of alledged aborted foetuses there. I guess you'd continue to insist that it could be something other than foetuses. Maybe the darker ones are quite old rather than fresh?

If those images were uncovered tomorrow as 100% fraudulent, you would be seeing them used seriously still for the next 20 years, possibly forever.

It often involves moving footage and it is more than 20 years old.

Has aborted foetus footage ever been found to be fake?
Yes, there have been instances where footage or images purported to show aborted fetuses were found to be misleading or altered. For example, in 2015, an anti-abortion organization released undercover videos that were later analyzed and found to be edited.

Planned Parenthood 2015 undercover videos controversy - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Additionally, some images used in anti-abortion campaigns have been taken from unrelated sources, such as photos of stillborn infants rather than aborted fetuses.

https://www.cnn.com/2015/10/19/politics/planned-parenthood-videos/index.html

The video I included was much earlier than that and I haven't found any mention of its dozens of foetuses to be faked. Abortion supporters would love to find any evidence that that was a scam.
edit: 1:20 might show the head of conjoined twins - though I thought normally the head would have been attached.
BTW in the pro-life reddit they don't allow any posts showing abortion videos or images - just in the comments. So it's a bit difficult to ask them questions about that video.

 

[excreationist]

Maybe the discolouration is from them being poisoned?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

#1: Why did they do a c-section for an abortion?? No, that's almost certainly not an abortion.

It's a waste bin.

Even more evidence it's wrong. That's tissue--it goes in biohazard, not regular trash.

Of course it would be a biohazard waste bin. That's still a form of waste bin.

Look at your picture. Look at these bags (simply hit #1, I know nothing of the company):

https://store.stericycle.com/store/medical-waste-bags/biohazard-bags/

#2: A tape measure?? I can't imagine a tape measure being permitted in the OR because how do you clean all those interior surfaces??

So does that mean that the footage was fake? I thought it would be useful to know how long the foetus is.

I'm saying it's an inappropriate tool for the situation. Why is anyone handling it like that other than immediately after removal? And immediately after removal is the OR. And tape measures can't be sterilized.

Well I find the length of the foetus to be more meaningful than its weight (I mean many people wouldn't know how long a foetus of a particular weight is). I thought if they touched the tape measure after they've finished with the woman then it doesn't matter how sterile the tape measure is. Note they seem to be wearing gloves.

You're still not getting it. We have a scene that only makes sense to take place in the OR. We have a tool that would not be permitted in the OR.

#2, #4: Both of these look wrong to me. Major fetal defect, perhaps?

Sometimes the footage involves damaging the foetuses including chopping them up in order to get them out of the womb.

Those pictures aren't chopped up. They're just a bit wrong, they don't look like normal human structure.

There are photos of partial heads, etc, though. I'm sure there'd be some pro-life expert that would be able to explain why they look like they do.

What you showed had two pictures that do not appear to be cut apart but do not look right, either.

They gathered some gruesome footage, doesn't mean it really shows what they claim it is.

So those 2 minutes of footage didn't show aborted foetuses?

I have no idea what they show. I'm just saying there are many red flags about the truthfulness.

Like the "red flag" of there being a tape measure?

Yes. What I'm saying is that there are multiple things that do not make sense in normal medical practice. The most likely conclusion is that it isn't medical practice, that this is somehow faked. They show you horrific things and tell you what you're supposedly seeing--doesn't mean that's what it really is. Two out of four frames contain details which are non-obviously wrong. That makes me think Hollywood and without an advisor checking the details.

 

[excreationist]

Could you comment on the video in post #491? Note it is 20+ years old maybe 30+ years. That footage should be better evidence than those 4 screenshots. I’m not surprised that some of it isn’t “normal medical practice”. Maybe some people had a bargain basement abortion.

 

[Spacetime Inhabitant]

Could you comment on the video in post #491? Note it is 20+ years old maybe 30+ years. That footage should be better evidence than those 4 screenshots. I’m not surprised that some of it isn’t “normal medical practice”. Maybe some people had a bargain basement abortion.

So some people had a bargain basement abortion, yet also present was some fancy imaging equipment, and these people who had or did the abortion release this fancy imaging (complete with musical soundtrack).

 

[Jarhyn]

Could you comment on the video in post #491? Note it is 20+ years old maybe 30+ years. That footage should be better evidence than those 4 screenshots. I’m not surprised that some of it isn’t “normal medical practice”. Maybe some people had a bargain basement abortion.

So some people had a bargain basement abortion, yet also present was some fancy imaging equipment, and these people who had or did the abortion release this fancy imaging (complete with musical soundtrack).

Which is quite the point that the evidence is itself 'fake', not that it is a fake abortion, but that it represents an action and outcome that either never happens or only does when some wealthy republican makes it happen.

Also, such things would be far more rare and difficult to access of above-board abortion services are available.

Then, it could have been cut up props, corn starch, and food dye.

We don't know because clearly their "evidence" has no chain of evidence or valid story behind it

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I'm sure there'd be some

And you would be wrong.

The professional Christian circuit doesn't operate that way; if something is offered and looks plausible for the purposes of propaganda, they use it 'in good faith' without attribution.

If those images were uncovered tomorrow as 100% fraudulent, you would be seeing them used seriously still for the next 20 years, possibly forever.

It's kind of sad because exactly the sorts of things they need to be chasing down (accurate reference data and chains of custody on evidence) they operate entirely absent of.

Its like a bad Facebook meme, ya? And not to mention most of those stock images are at least 30 years old (which @Loren Pechtel should be made aware of). We have no idea where they came from at this point or why they were made nor when.

I know fakes have been around for a long time but I don't have them memorized to know if these were the same fakes.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

@Loren Pechtel

Spoiler: Alledged aborted foetus footage and photos

Spoiler: It's even worse than last time

So there's dozens of alledged aborted foetuses there. I guess you'd continue to insist that it could be something other than foetuses. Maybe the darker ones are quite old rather than fresh?

If those images were uncovered tomorrow as 100% fraudulent, you would be seeing them used seriously still for the next 20 years, possibly forever.

It often involves moving footage and it is more than 20 years old.

Has aborted foetus footage ever been found to be fake?
Yes, there have been instances where footage or images purported to show aborted fetuses were found to be misleading or altered. For example, in 2015, an anti-abortion organization released undercover videos that were later analyzed and found to be edited.

Planned Parenthood 2015 undercover videos controversy - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Additionally, some images used in anti-abortion campaigns have been taken from unrelated sources, such as photos of stillborn infants rather than aborted fetuses.

https://www.cnn.com/2015/10/19/politics/planned-parenthood-videos/index.html

The video I included was much earlier than that and I haven't found any mention of its dozens of foetuses to be faked. Abortion supporters would love to find any evidence that that was a scam.
edit: 1:20 might show the head of conjoined twins - though I thought normally the head would have been attached.
BTW in the pro-life reddit they don't allow any posts showing abortion videos or images - just in the comments. So it's a bit difficult to ask them questions about that video.

In other words, the same old fakes. They use fakes because it's not actually happening.

The prevalence of false data from the pro-punishment crowd says they don't have real data. If they had real data they wouldn't be using fake data.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Maybe the discolouration is from them being poisoned?

You're still assuming it's real. That color looks rather like deoxygenated blood. What you would get from it being dead. In the medical world if the heart must be stopped (and there are occasions when that's needed) the standard approach is potassium chloride. Very quick, simply jams the signals without doing damage--once it dissipates things are back to normal.

 

[TomC]

Could you comment on the video in post #491? Note it is 20+ years old maybe 30+ years. That footage should be better evidence than those 4 screenshots. I’m not surprised that some of it isn’t “normal medical practice”. Maybe some people had a bargain basement abortion.

I don't want to stink up my mind with images like those so I haven't seen them. But one of the possibilities that popped into my head was that they came from back alley abortionists.
Ya know, the kind women resort to when legitimate health care facilities are not available to them. Ya know, like now.
Tom