The Problems Of Rural Christian White Americans

[Jolly_Penguin]

Sure. Fear sells. Both sides TRY to use that to their advantage.

Do you honestly think that both sides of politics are equally effective in engendering fear in their base? Do you honestly think that the things each side fears are equally real, and equally justified?

Those are two very different questions. I think the Republicans are slightly better at engendering fear, and that they used to be MUCH better at it before Trump inspired new levels in the Democrats. I personally believe what the Dems fear are more real and justified, but that's probably because I'm a liberal. Some fears on both sides are justified and most on both sides is hysteria.

 

[bilby]

And yes, lets not pretend that Trump hasn't inspired widespread fearmongering from Democrats at deafening levels.

Sure. And let's not pretend that Moore and Coulter are equivalent.

"Both sides are imperfect, therefore both sides are exactly equally bad" is nonsense.

The left wing are trying to employ the very successful right wing tactic of causing fear. But they are doing too little, too late - it's the right-wing's schtick, and the left can't hold a candle to the massive, highly practiced, and hugely powerful right-wing fear machine.

 

[prideandfall]

I get the promotional mailings of both the big parties since neither side can figure out which side I'm on. Both mailings are full of fearmongering, just different fears.

Did you know we're in imminent danger of losing access to abortion and starving in the streets while racists take over our government?
Did you know we're in imminent danger of societal collapse due to the destruction of the nuclear family while the value of life cheapens?

unsurprisingly it doesn't occur to you that one of those things is an actual legit concern that is based on the stated party platform of the opposition and demonstrable behavior by them while they're in power, and one of those things is a delusion cooked up by bigots who shit themselves over the thought of anything that isn't exactly like them.
there's a pretty big difference between "the niggers are comin' ta git yer guuuuuns" which never happens, and "oh hey, republicans are actively shutting down abortion clinics everywhere they're in power and constantly trying to pass laws making abortion illegal" which is happening all the time.

so i see that you're answering my question from earlier in the affirmative: you people just *never* get tired of this moore/coulter bullshit.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Sure. And let's not pretend that Moore and Coulter are equivalent.

I hear this Moore-Coulter thing brought up a lot. It is a good point. But it falls directly into another trap. Just because A is worse than B, doesn't make B not bad or not worth fixing. You shouldn't ignore B just because A is bigger, especially when B feeds directly into A.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

there's a pretty big difference between "the niggers are comin' ta git yer guuuuuns" which never happens, and "oh hey, republicans are actively shutting down abortion clinics everywhere they're in power and constantly trying to pass laws making abortion illegal" which is happening all the time.

The funny thing about that ... Republicans learned to use regulation to strangle Abortion clinics from Democrats. They saw what the Democrats were doing to gun shops, and said "you know, that might work." I know, Democrats aren't out to take away any existing guns. They only want to pass more regulations that prohibit the purchase, sale, gift, or inheritance of an increasing list of firearms and regulate gun shops out of existence. Rather like, oh, say, the way Republicans now do to Abortion clinics.

 

[bilby]

Sure. And let's not pretend that Moore and Coulter are equivalent.

I hear this Moore-Coulter thing brought up a lot. It is a good point. But it falls directly into another trap. Just because A is worse than B, doesn't make B not bad or not worth fixing. You shouldn't ignore B just because A is bigger, especially when B feeds directly into A.

Sure.

But the context is important. People say "You think A is bad; Well B is just as bad, so there!" Almost nobody says "A is bad, so I am going to ignore B". B is only ever brought up in the context of defending A. Rarely do you encounter someone who is criticizing A and is claiming that B should therefore be ignored.

In other words, your entire point here amounts to "I hear this Moore-Coulter thing brought up a lot. It is a good point. But Moore-Coulter!"

Perhaps you should more carefully consider the good point that you recognize about this argument.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

But the context is important. People say "You think A is bad; Well B is just as bad, so there!" Almost nobody says "A is bad, so I am going to ignore B". B is only ever brought up in the context of defending A. Rarely do you encounter someone who is criticizing A and is claiming that B should therefore be ignored.

I see it here all the time. I've seen it twice in the past couple of days on this forum. Try to tell somebody something isn't exclusive to A, and also happens with B (ie, its a broader phenomenon than they are acknowledging and probably caused by a deeper cause than their partisan focus), and you are all but guaranteed to hear somebody shout "Moore-Coulter; ignore B and focus only on A". Its like if you try to show its a broader issue and exists on both sides, people assume you are saying its "just as extreme" or "just as bad" on both sides, despite you never saying that.

 

[prideandfall]

The funny thing about that ...

yeah funny thing, show me one link to a serious (as in, a law that was brought to vote or passed) that is trying to restrict gun sales in a general sense, as opposed to trying to get background checks to restrict untraceable sales and/or to the deficient and undesirable, and i'll concede that point.

 

[Opoponax]

The funny thing about that ... Republicans learned to use regulation to strangle Abortion clinics from Democrats. They saw what the Democrats were doing to gun shops, and said "you know, that might work." I know, Democrats aren't out to take away any existing guns. They only want to pass more regulations that prohibit the purchase, sale, gift, or inheritance of an increasing list of firearms and regulate gun shops out of existence. Rather like, oh, say, the way Republicans now do to Abortion clinics.

Huh. I won't even bother asking for any kind of factual basis. It'd be like demanding to see a two headed unicorn.

I can pretty much guarantee I own more guns than you do and that in the case of a Trumptardian-pocalypse that I'm much better stocked with ammo than you or most conservative gun fetishists are.

This means that I know a thing or two about the gun shops in my area and the area I used to live in. It also means I've bought some (most lately) guns over the internet.

Here's some news for you: it's really easy, even here in godawful Commiefornia to get an amazing variety of guns. I love talking guns. Here's what I have:

Handguns
S&W Shield (9mm)
S&W Model 69 (44 Mag)
Ruger GP100 (357 mag)
CZ 75 (9mm)

I also want a 1911, but I can't decide between 45ACP and 10MM. But I'd really prefer 10MM in Glock. I'm not a big fan of Glock, but they make a reliable AF pistol. But dammit, 10mm in a big-ass 1911 would just be so cool. Anyway...

Shotgun
Sadly, just one, but it serves it's purpose: Mossberg 930 semi-auto (12 gauge)

Rifle
Ruger 10-22 (.22)
RAS 47 (AK/7.62x39)
30-06 (Browning)
30-06 (Savage)
375 H&H Magnum (.375 elephant gun baby!--good god, what a kick, but it puts a 300 grain round downrange at up to 2700 fps).
45-70 Guide Gun (lever-action .45 caliber)

I'll admit, I don't like some of the stupid shit they do out here, but at least California tries to do something, regardless of how misguided it is. Maybe if the goddamn conservatives would do something sensible like require licensing and training before being allowed to own a gun, it would at least to some degree limit access.

Speaking of that, when I picked up my 45-70 from Bass Pro, there was some fucking idiot lady there who was also picking up a gun, a Glock in .45 IIRC. We got to talking and it turns out this dummy had never fired a gun before. And she planned on keeping it in her purse "just in case." Yeah, let's not do anything to prevent empty heads like that from running around with a handgun.

I can go into a gun store here tomorrow morning and have my choice of a wide variety of guns. If they don't have it in stock, they can order it provided it's on the roster.

Wait, what were you saying? Oh hell, I don't care.

 

[Malintent]

That's bigotry at best, racism at worst. It is the contempt by the progressives towards the rural that caused the rural to reject the progressives. You are a symptom of why they didn't vote the way you wanted them to.

Is it a case of finding a good way to put across the message that they may be victims of their own ignorance? To use that as the starting point?

In my opinion, yes. However there is no "good way" that anyone has thought of. To use an extreme analogy of another large group of people that are dangerously misinformed.. North Koreans. The best idea I ever heard was to hang a communications satellite over the Korean Peninsula, and then do a series of "bombing runs" over North Korea, dropping 1 million fully charged cell phones with free unlimited cellular data and unfiltered internet access.

How do we do that type of thing in our "flyover states" that have these factory towns just waiting for the next bit of technology to ghost it?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Mid-West a Victim of Rural Brain Drain

I think it's fairly understated how big of an impact de-industrialization and this are having on your politics.

Yeah--when an area suffers substantial emigration the the results are very bad. The people that make it a good place are very disproportionately the ones that leave.

 

[laughing dog]

That's bigotry at best, racism at worst. It is the contempt by the progressives towards the rural that caused the rural to reject the progressives. You are a symptom of why they didn't vote the way you wanted them to.

Is it a case of finding a good way to put across the message that they may be victims of their own ignorance? To use that as the starting point?

In my opinion, yes. However there is no "good way" that anyone has thought of. To use an extreme analogy of another large group of people that are dangerously misinformed.. North Koreans. The best idea I ever heard was to hang a communications satellite over the Korean Peninsula, and then do a series of "bombing runs" over North Korea, dropping 1 million fully charged cell phones with free unlimited cellular data and unfiltered internet access.

How do we do that type of thing in our "flyover states" that have these factory towns just waiting for the next bit of technology to ghost it?

Incessantly educate with facts is the key. I think realizing that there is huge gap of trust and information to make up so that patience is paramount. The merchants of deceit have made this a difficult slog. Calling these people "deplorable" or "inbred" or "racist" to their face (even if it is true) only hurts those efforts.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I'll admit, I don't like some of the stupid shit they do out here, but at least California tries to do something, regardless of how misguided it is. Maybe if the goddamn conservatives would do something sensible like require licensing and training before being allowed to own a gun, it would at least to some degree limit access.

Beware that California's rules will in time ban the purchase of all handguns. They aren't updating their list of approved guns and old ones are aging off--in time the list will be empty.

Speaking of that, when I picked up my 45-70 from Bass Pro, there was some fucking idiot lady there who was also picking up a gun, a Glock in .45 IIRC. We got to talking and it turns out this dummy had never fired a gun before. And she planned on keeping it in her purse "just in case." Yeah, let's not do anything to prevent empty heads like that from running around with a handgun.

Yeah--it's bozos like this that are the primary reason I want a gun license system. Model it on driver's licenses--no crap about need, just show that you know your shit and it's issued. Special cases are just modifications on the license. (NFA weapons would simply be a license endorsement. You undergo the background check once, you get your endorsement, then you can buy NFA weapons pretty much as you would buy any others.)

(There's also the secondary thing that it allows the police to very easily determine if you're allowed to possess that gun. Just like driving without a license is a crime and gets your car seized, possessing a gun without a license would be a crime and get your gun seized. You would not be required to have your license on your own property and you would not be required to have it in an emergency.)

 

[Loren Pechtel]

In my opinion, yes. However there is no "good way" that anyone has thought of. To use an extreme analogy of another large group of people that are dangerously misinformed.. North Koreans. The best idea I ever heard was to hang a communications satellite over the Korean Peninsula, and then do a series of "bombing runs" over North Korea, dropping 1 million fully charged cell phones with free unlimited cellular data and unfiltered internet access.

How do we do that type of thing in our "flyover states" that have these factory towns just waiting for the next bit of technology to ghost it?

Huh? How would that work?

1) You can't position a satellite over the Korean peninsula. Orbital mechanics will not permit this.

2) Ordinary cell phones don't talk to satellites in the first place. Even if you could put a bird up there it does not good. You're thinking of satellite phones. They're big and the internet access is very poor--most websites would take ages to load. Not to mention the satellite time it takes to do it.

3) Ever hear of jamming? Satellite communications use very low power signals, it's easy to jam.

 

[Horatio Parker]

That's bigotry at best, racism at worst. It is the contempt by the progressives towards the rural that caused the rural to reject the progressives. You are a symptom of why they didn't vote the way you wanted them to.

Is it a case of finding a good way to put across the message that they may be victims of their own ignorance? To use that as the starting point?

In my opinion, yes. However there is no "good way" that anyone has thought of. To use an extreme analogy of another large group of people that are dangerously misinformed.. North Koreans. The best idea I ever heard was to hang a communications satellite over the Korean Peninsula, and then do a series of "bombing runs" over North Korea, dropping 1 million fully charged cell phones with free unlimited cellular data and unfiltered internet access.

How do we do that type of thing in our "flyover states" that have these factory towns just waiting for the next bit of technology to ghost it?

Increased interaction between North and South would do the trick.

Unification never seems to make it onto the menu.

 

[Horatio Parker]

In my opinion, yes. However there is no "good way" that anyone has thought of. To use an extreme analogy of another large group of people that are dangerously misinformed.. North Koreans. The best idea I ever heard was to hang a communications satellite over the Korean Peninsula, and then do a series of "bombing runs" over North Korea, dropping 1 million fully charged cell phones with free unlimited cellular data and unfiltered internet access.

How do we do that type of thing in our "flyover states" that have these factory towns just waiting for the next bit of technology to ghost it?

Incessantly educate with facts is the key. I think realizing that there is huge gap of trust and information to make up so that patience is paramount. The merchants of deceit have made this a difficult slog. Calling these people "deplorable" or "inbred" or "racist" to their face (even if it is true) only hurts those efforts.

The Dems were foolish to stop the 50 state initiative.

I agree calling them racist only aggravates things. I suspect most of them consider themselves fair, only they feel minorities just don't cut the mustard, and insisting on equality makes things worse.

A mindset from the good old days when whitey ruled the world without question.

 

[Malintent]

In my opinion, yes. However there is no "good way" that anyone has thought of. To use an extreme analogy of another large group of people that are dangerously misinformed.. North Koreans. The best idea I ever heard was to hang a communications satellite over the Korean Peninsula, and then do a series of "bombing runs" over North Korea, dropping 1 million fully charged cell phones with free unlimited cellular data and unfiltered internet access.

How do we do that type of thing in our "flyover states" that have these factory towns just waiting for the next bit of technology to ghost it?

Huh? How would that work?

1) You can't position a satellite over the Korean peninsula. Orbital mechanics will not permit this.

2) Ordinary cell phones don't talk to satellites in the first place. Even if you could put a bird up there it does not good. You're thinking of satellite phones. They're big and the internet access is very poor--most websites would take ages to load. Not to mention the satellite time it takes to do it.

3) Ever hear of jamming? Satellite communications use very low power signals, it's easy to jam.

details details... NK already jams most radio frequencies, and they also pollute the sound waves in the air around their borders to prevent loudspeakers from broadcasting information across their borders. It would be extremely challenging to get a technology in there, for sure.

as far as satellite positioning... yes, it would take multiple satellites to always have one over their horizon... and the towers in SK that relay the signal are currently being jammed.

But how would it work? Smarter people than me should be working on that... that, and my fucking jet pack that I was promised in 1980.

 

[Worldtraveller]

For the most part, people vote their pocketbooks.

I keep seeing this, but I've yet to see any real evidence of it. so, [citation needed]

 

[Worldtraveller]

stick “3 percenter” on their trucks.

???

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=three+percenters

 

[bilby]

In my opinion, yes. However there is no "good way" that anyone has thought of. To use an extreme analogy of another large group of people that are dangerously misinformed.. North Koreans. The best idea I ever heard was to hang a communications satellite over the Korean Peninsula, and then do a series of "bombing runs" over North Korea, dropping 1 million fully charged cell phones with free unlimited cellular data and unfiltered internet access.

How do we do that type of thing in our "flyover states" that have these factory towns just waiting for the next bit of technology to ghost it?

Huh? How would that work?

1) You can't position a satellite over the Korean peninsula. Orbital mechanics will not permit this.

2) Ordinary cell phones don't talk to satellites in the first place. Even if you could put a bird up there it does not good. You're thinking of satellite phones. They're big and the internet access is very poor--most websites would take ages to load. Not to mention the satellite time it takes to do it.

3) Ever hear of jamming? Satellite communications use very low power signals, it's easy to jam.

It wouldn't work even if it were technically possible.

Patriotic North Koreans would simply hand the devices in to the authorities. Those few who did use them would mostly refuse to believe the truth, because it is in direct conflict with the 'facts' they have 'known' all their lives, and because the Dear Leader and his officials warned them that the devil would tempt them the foreigners would try to beguile them with lies.

It is several orders of magnitude easier to deceive a person than it is to persuade him that he is the victim of deceit. People would mostly rather continue to be stupid, than admit that they were stupid in the past.

- - - Updated - - -

In my opinion, yes. However there is no "good way" that anyone has thought of. To use an extreme analogy of another large group of people that are dangerously misinformed.. North Koreans. The best idea I ever heard was to hang a communications satellite over the Korean Peninsula, and then do a series of "bombing runs" over North Korea, dropping 1 million fully charged cell phones with free unlimited cellular data and unfiltered internet access.

How do we do that type of thing in our "flyover states" that have these factory towns just waiting for the next bit of technology to ghost it?

Increased interaction between North and South would do the trick.

Unification never seems to make it onto the menu.

Just to clarify, are you talking about Korea, the USA, or both?