The Problems Of Rural Christian White Americans

[bilby]

H

Please, feel free to stop emoting and start thinking at any point.

Apres vous, s’il vous plait.

It is good to know that you acknowledge that you are not an expert on American politics.

And we have yet ANOTHER failure of logic - an implied quote mine, of all things. Surely you are not so dumb as to imagine that anyone would accept your assertion that I acknowledge that I am not an expert on American politics; Any honest reader of our exchange can see that I made no such acknowledgment. I said: "I do not claim to be an expert on the USA on the basis of a few movies and acquaintances" - a rebuttal to your pathetic straw-man claim "By your reasoning, I am as great an expert on Australian politics as you are because I’ve seen all of the Crocadile Dundee movies, know who Nicole Kidman is and used to have neighbors who were from Australia".

Your decision to ignore the part in bold is just fucking childish. What next, you are going to establish your position by claiming to be rubber, while I am glue?

Your claim that I cannot know about the topic because of my lack of direct local experience is false, unreasonable and illogical. It is possible that I might not (a claim that is true of ANYONE, including you); But you demonstrably do NOT have reason to believe that I cannot.

Your logic is broken. You are dismissive of my input to the conversation on the basis of a premise that is clearly unreasonable.

 

[laughing dog]

Your claim that I cannot know about the topic because of my lack of direct local experience is false, unreasonable and illogical.

It is reasonable to conclude that you don't know very much about the topic based on your lack of experience. And given your input, that conclusion is justified even if it turns out to be incorrect.

 

[bilby]

Your claim that I cannot know about the topic because of my lack of direct local experience is false, unreasonable and illogical.

It is reasonable to conclude that you don't know very much about the topic based on your lack of experience. And given your input, that conclusion is justified even if it turns out to be incorrect.

My input is the ONLY source of information there is on the subject of how much I know about the topic.

If there are errors in what I wrote, then I would welcome somebody correcting those errors, so that I can learn. If there are disagreements on matters of opinion, then let us by all means discuss those opinions, and at the very least we will have a better grasp of each other's positions at the end of the discussion.

But don't just dismiss my comments on the completely unjustified basis that I cannot possibly have anything to contribute. It's fair enough to think that I possibly have little understanding of the subject; But it is NOT reasonable to think that this is a certainty.

I am perfectly happy to have my claims criticized, and even shown to be false; But a thoughtless dismissal based on the impossibility of knowing how much I do or do not know is astonishingly rude.

It's not North Korea; Information about the USA is readily available here. I get both CNN and Fox News on my cable TV plan. I have the Internet. I have friends in the USA with whom i discuss current affairs and politics, amongst other topics. I am almost certainly better informed about the USA than a sizable fraction of the US voting public.

Tell me that I am wrong, if I am. But don't tell me that you don't even need to consider my posts. That's seriously fucking stupid, and seriously fucking rude.

 

[Juma]

Yeah, it is amazing that I understand them instead of merely dismissing them all as inbred racists.

I understand many of them to be inbred racists. That's not a dismissal, it's just an observation that successfully allows their behaviour to be predicted.

Not really. You dont need to be a fool just for being inbred, or even for being racist. But people (yes, trumpers are people too) behaves as fools anyway. Why?

 

[bilby]

Yeah, it is amazing that I understand them instead of merely dismissing them all as inbred racists.

I understand many of them to be inbred racists. That's not a dismissal, it's just an observation that successfully allows their behaviour to be predicted.

Not really. You dont need to be a fool just for being inbred, or even for being racist. But people (yes, trumpers are people too) behaves as fools anyway. Why?

Because they are scared witless. By everything.

They have spent their entire lives surrounded by people raising the (false) alarm about one thing after another that they should view as an immediate and serious threat.

It's not even a uniquely US problem. The Americans have Trump; The Poms have Brexit. The French have the Front National. The Australians have One Nation.

 

[Opoponax]

Not really. You dont need to be a fool just for being inbred, or even for being racist. But people (yes, trumpers are people too) behaves as fools anyway. Why?

Because they are scared witless. By everything.

They have spent their entire lives surrounded by people raising the (false) alarm about one thing after another that they should view as an immediate and serious threat.

It's not even a uniquely US problem. The Americans have Trump; The Poms have Brexit. The French have the Front National. The Australians have One Nation.

I don't know who the leaders are in the the above organizations, but I do wonder, do they present as shockingly stupid as Trump does?

See, I tend to think that Obama made the alt-righters in the U.S. feel stupid. Here was a well educated, well-spoken, even tempered black guy who came from nothing and earned his way to the United States Presidency. It would be a sappy, agenda filled story were it a work of fiction. But it was real and I think seeing Obama be so successful made them feel every bit as dumb as they presently conduct themselves.

Rhea's opinions earlier in this thread really hit home in regards to the racial aspect, and is probably the most accurate assessment of the situation. At the same time though, when I look at Trump, I see a stupid, stupid man. A person with an average IQ isn't intimidated by him. A person with a lower than average IQ would seem more likely to find him admirable. Of course, there are some really smart people who support Trump, but as one learns in becoming an atheist, really smart people can believe really dumb things (i.e., genie in the sky).

I saw the same in Dubbya. That is, someone who really didn't possess the mental horsepower to be an accomplished POTUS. And damn if it wasn't proven many times over. And I think that makes Stupid a trend in conservative Presidents (which began with Dubbya). They felt they could "sit down and have a beer with him." Rather than wanting someone better and more capable, they wanted a cool beer buddy.

Dubbya's dad was a sharp dude. He was a fighter pilot, an actual, real to life successful businessman; a congressman, an ambassador, and head of the CIA.

Reagan, despite what many like to say, was no idiot either. Neither was Ford or Nixon (character issues aside).

But now (R)'s vote for dummies.

Is it because it makes them feel better about themselves?

 

[Toni]

Your claim that I cannot know about the topic because of my lack of direct local experience is false, unreasonable and illogical.

It is reasonable to conclude that you don't know very much about the topic based on your lack of experience. And given your input, that conclusion is justified even if it turns out to be incorrect.

My input is the ONLY source of information there is on the subject of how much I know about the topic.

If there are errors in what I wrote, then I would welcome somebody correcting those errors, so that I can learn. If there are disagreements on matters of opinion, then let us by all means discuss those opinions, and at the very least we will have a better grasp of each other's positions at the end of the discussion.

But don't just dismiss my comments on the completely unjustified basis that I cannot possibly have anything to contribute. It's fair enough to think that I possibly have little understanding of the subject; But it is NOT reasonable to think that this is a certainty.

I am perfectly happy to have my claims criticized, and even shown to be false; But a thoughtless dismissal based on the impossibility of knowing how much I do or do not know is astonishingly rude.

It's not North Korea; Information about the USA is readily available here. I get both CNN and Fox News on my cable TV plan. I have the Internet. I have friends in the USA with whom i discuss current affairs and politics, amongst other topics. I am almost certainly better informed about the USA than a sizable fraction of the US voting public.

Tell me that I am wrong, if I am. But don't tell me that you don't even need to consider my posts. That's seriously fucking stupid, and seriously fucking rude.

For one, you seem to rely on stereotypes (inbred racists) rather than on actual facts. You seem to not even consider that there is any valid point of view to be found in rural America or in the American south.

In fact, the United States has always walked a fine line between states rights and federal rights, between individual rights and responsibilities and those of the government.

Start with the assumption that everything you think you know is false. Start from the beginning without that Rupert Murdoch filter on your eyes. That would be a beginning place of understanding.

 

[jonatha]

Start from the beginning without that Rupert Murdoch filter on your eyes.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

It's not hatred. It's fear.

People are terrified of that which they do not understand, particularly when they are told by those they trust that they have good reason to be.

It's easy to make a person fearful. It's even easier if they are not well traveled, or well educated, and have had little exposure to reality outside their bubble.

Black men will rob you or rape you (or both). Immigrants will take your jobs and your women. Obama will take your guns. Everyone is out to get you, to take what is yours and to leave you with nothing. Just look around - see how everything is going to shit? Of course it is. People are taking YOUR STUFF. Taxes are THEFT. Atheists are trying to KILL BABIES. Muslims want to blow you to smithereens. EVERYONE who isn't like you is out to get you. But it's OK, because Trump will protect you from all of that. He will build a wall; He will drain the swamp, and fill Washington with people who CARE about these terrifying things that are lurking out there waiting to get YOU.

The fact that your fears are largely imaginary, and that therefore anyone who claims to be able to protect you from them is either a lunatic, a liar, or both, is impossible to grasp, when every part of your life experience points to things you should be terrified by.

You NEED those guns, for your own defence - despite the fact that people in the rest of the developed world don't have guns for self defence, and don't get robbed or raped any more than your people do.
You NEED that religion; Satan is trying to get your immortal soul - despite the fact that there's no evidence that you even own such a thing.
You NEED that border wall; Those illegals are bad hombres who don't send their best - despite the fact that illegal immigrants in the US contribute far more to the nation than they take out of it.

You NEED to be terrified; Everything different or remote is seriously scary shit, and it is coming to get YOU.

The Trump base (And the One Nation voters in Australia, and the Brexiteers in the UK) are all dangerously paranoid lunatics. They are the salt of the Earth - Hard, square, and bad for your health. But the problem is not that they hate (most don't). It is that they FEAR.

A strange dog won't bite you because it hates you - It can't hate you because it doesn't know you. It bites because it fears you - and wants to get its retaliation in first. That doesn't make it any less dangerous to you, but it does (perhaps) give you the start of a strategy for dealing with the danger. Fox News and AM radio are like the kids who have been throwing fire-crackers at the stray dog, making it terrified and jumpy. They make sure that it is constantly reminded that anything unfamiliar is a threat. The first step to opening any kind of non-hostile relationship is to remove those constant psychological attacks. Until that happens, there's no possible solution that doesn't end with one or both parties getting hurt.

But there's nothing so certain to grab people's attention than informing them of a threat. And as long as getting people's attention en-masse is as hugely lucrative as it is currently for organizations like Fox News, they will keep on inventing and exaggerating threats for profit. Today's US Citizens are perhaps the safest humans who have ever lived. But they are scared of terrorists, or immigrants, or atheists, or communism, or fluoride, or taxation, or miscegenation, or satan, or D&D, or Rock n Roll, or any of dozens of things that are not a real threat to them at all. And most of all, they are scared of smart people, of book-learning (other than from the Bible, of course), and of education. Because if you want to keep people scared of things that don't exist, it's vital to condition them to avoid asking searching questions.

I agree with your sentiment but the things under discussion I see more as trends than hard-line statements. So, for example, scientific studies show a correlation between fear and conservatism. It's not an absolute thing but I think you're right that it's fear rather than hatred since that didn't show up in correlations. I don't agree on some of the intensity (or high frequency) of claims you've made but I totally get the statements. Just as a single example: is it really easy to make a person fearful, I don't know how you are measuring "easy," but I do believe the latter that when people have less education and exposure to other groups, it makes it easier to be fearful of them. Are the Trump base all "dangerously paranoid lunatics?" No, but is there truth that he appeals to fear and that there are imagined fears at a higher percent among this group than non-Trump voters? Yes. So I again I agree generally inasmuch as we are discussing trends rather than absolutes. It's also probably important to recognize fear as a factor and propaganda as a mechanism of spreading it as you do. As we try to regain control of our country, we may have to solve this problem to win.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

Oh there's plenty of fear mongering out there, but that is only a part and not the whole.

There is also fear mongering out there. Fear mongering such as "they're a bunch of racists", "they're a bunch of misogynists", "they're a bunch of homophobes", "they used to say 'let's lynch blacks', now they say 'let's cut taxes'", etc.

 

[bilby]

My input is the ONLY source of information there is on the subject of how much I know about the topic.

If there are errors in what I wrote, then I would welcome somebody correcting those errors, so that I can learn. If there are disagreements on matters of opinion, then let us by all means discuss those opinions, and at the very least we will have a better grasp of each other's positions at the end of the discussion.

But don't just dismiss my comments on the completely unjustified basis that I cannot possibly have anything to contribute. It's fair enough to think that I possibly have little understanding of the subject; But it is NOT reasonable to think that this is a certainty.

I am perfectly happy to have my claims criticized, and even shown to be false; But a thoughtless dismissal based on the impossibility of knowing how much I do or do not know is astonishingly rude.

It's not North Korea; Information about the USA is readily available here. I get both CNN and Fox News on my cable TV plan. I have the Internet. I have friends in the USA with whom i discuss current affairs and politics, amongst other topics. I am almost certainly better informed about the USA than a sizable fraction of the US voting public.

Tell me that I am wrong, if I am. But don't tell me that you don't even need to consider my posts. That's seriously fucking stupid, and seriously fucking rude.

For one, you seem to rely on stereotypes (inbred racists) rather than on actual facts.

My only use of that phrase was a paraphrasing of Jason Harvestdancer's prior use of the same phrase. I in no way rely on, nor do I even care much for, that stereotype.

You seem to not even consider that there is any valid point of view to be found in rural America or in the American south.

Not one single thing I have said claims or even implies that.

In fact, the United States has always walked a fine line between states rights and federal rights, between individual rights and responsibilities and those of the government.

I am aware of this. None of it is relevant to anything I have posted in this thread.

Start with the assumption that everything you think you know is false. Start from the beginning without that Rupert Murdoch filter on your eyes. That would be a beginning place of understanding.

Start by dropping the condescension, and reading my posts.

If you think I view the world through a 'Rupert Murdoch filter', or even that I have any time for any of his shithouse media outlets, then it is VERY clear that you haven't been paying any attention to my posts either in this thread, or elsewhere on this board.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Oh there's plenty of fear mongering out there, but that is only a part and not the whole.

There is also fear mongering out there. Fear mongering such as "they're a bunch of racists", "they're a bunch of misogynists", "they're a bunch of homophobes", "they used to say 'let's lynch blacks', now they say 'let's cut taxes'", etc.

OK, that is kind of a disingenuous statement because it is fairly clear that the only reason they want to reduce taxes is to make rope less expensive so that lynching blacks is more affordable. You can't just pretend they've changed their underlying position.

 

[bilby]

Oh there's plenty of fear mongering out there, but that is only a part and not the whole.

There is also fear mongering out there. Fear mongering such as "they're a bunch of racists", "they're a bunch of misogynists", "they're a bunch of homophobes", "they used to say 'let's lynch blacks', now they say 'let's cut taxes'", etc.

That's not fearmongering; even if I were foolish enough to believe the claims above, why would I be scared of a racist, misogynist, homophobe who wants to cut taxes? What's the threat?

I might pity such a fool (unless Mr T has a strong copyright enforcement team); I might think he was pathetic, or stupid, or misguided. But he's hardly an object of fear. He's not going to cause me to be raped, robbed, murdered, or damned to a lake of fire for eternity.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

That last one is based on things Charles Rangel said. "It's not 's***' or 'n*****' anymore. [Instead] they say, 'Let's cut taxes.' "

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

That's not fearmongering; even if I were foolish enough to believe the claims above, why would I be scared of a racist, misogynist, homophobe who wants to cut taxes? What's the threat?

You don't see a danger in racists, misogynists, and homophobes gaining positions of power or electing their representatives to positions of power?

 

[bilby]

That's not fearmongering; even if I were foolish enough to believe the claims above, why would I be scared of a racist, misogynist, homophobe who wants to cut taxes? What's the threat?

You don't see a danger in racists, misogynists, and homophobes gaining positions of power or electing their representatives to positions of power?

Only in the most abstract sense. I don't feel the need to barricade myself in my home, avoid certain areas of town, carry a gun, or pray to Jesus to protect me against them. I don't expect them to plant bombs, or to rob, rape or shoot me or my family.

They are a concern, but not an immediate and existential threat to me, my family and my way of life.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

I get the promotional mailings of both the big parties since neither side can figure out which side I'm on. Both mailings are full of fearmongering, just different fears.

Did you know we're in imminent danger of losing access to abortion and starving in the streets while racists take over our government?
Did you know we're in imminent danger of societal collapse due to the destruction of the nuclear family while the value of life cheapens?

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

I get the promotional mailings of both the big parties since neither side can figure out which side I'm on. Both mailings are full of fearmongering, just different fears.

Did you know we're in imminent danger of losing access to abortion and starving in the streets while racists take over our government?
Did you know we're in imminent danger of societal collapse due to the destruction of the nuclear family while the value of life cheapens?

When I get junk mail like that, if there is a pre-stamped self addressed envelope included, I like to swap the adds and mail them each others.

 

[bilby]

I get the promotional mailings of both the big parties since neither side can figure out which side I'm on. Both mailings are full of fearmongering, just different fears.

Did you know we're in imminent danger of losing access to abortion and starving in the streets while racists take over our government?
Did you know we're in imminent danger of societal collapse due to the destruction of the nuclear family while the value of life cheapens?

Sure. Fear sells. Both sides TRY to use that to their advantage.

Do you honestly think that both sides of politics are equally effective in engendering fear in their base? Do you honestly think that the things each side fears are equally real, and equally justified?

Fear itself is not a bad thing - some things are genuinely dangerous. But fear of non-existent threats is the issue here. Republican legislators really do block access to abortions; And they really are racists. If those things scare you, then you have good reason to fear a republican dominance of the political scene. But Democrats do not cause society to collapse; do not take steps to destroy the nuclear family; and do not cheapen the value of life. These are pretend threats.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

And yes, lets not pretend that Trump hasn't inspired widespread fearmongering from Democrats at deafening levels.