Tesla, not very green

[ZiprHead]

Dafuq? The vast majority of those parts in the second pic move. Do you know how an ICE engine works?

There's an awful lot of housing parts in the second picture. Perhaps if you count each component of the sets of identical ones you get more moving parts than stationary ones.

You just couldn't say "Sorry, I was wrong.", could you.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

According to what? The hack job website you cited which "cites" a study in a different language, but doesn't seem to actually link to it?

I remember similar efforts against the Insight and Prius, but their math needed the average distance a hybrid drove lifetime being around 60k to 80k miles.

I can accept electrics may have issues with green, but I don't see an argument showing it as such. When one needs to cite rare earth metal mining as part of the footprint, when that rare earth metals were going to be mined regardless is biased.

You count the rare earths that the electric car needs that the gasoline one doesn't. You don't get to simply say they would have been mined anyway.

And note that this not the first report of the lack of greenness of Teslas. As it currently stands electric cars are one of these feel-good things, not an actual environmental benefit. When our powerplants are carbon free then electric cars will be green, but not until then.

First off the rare earth metals are being mined regardless, so that is a crap argument. Regarding the report, what report?! The OP link had links that didn't link the Swedish report.

Regarding green-ness and complaining about electric plant emissions, why aren't gasoline production emissions mentioned or pollution via method of transport to every gas station?

 

[Derec]

It's an S63

Ah, a Merc. Thanks.

No, certainly not a Merc with that M logo on the cover. Even though there is a Merc S63 AMG, so I understand the confusion.

S63 is the engine designation, and it's the sports version of the BMW twin turbo V8.
I used this engine deliberately because it is used in the M5 which is a conventional competitor to Tesla Model S.
To give Mercs their due though, this is a cutout of the 9G-Tronic transmission as is used in the new E-Class including the new E63.

Quite a complicated beast.

 

[Derec]

It's doing the correct thing and going on averages.

But if your plant doesn't rely solely on the grid power, averages do not apply.

Things may become more green in the future. That doesn't say they are green now.

First, green is a spectrum, not a binary switch. Second, you will never get to more mature technology of the future if you don't ever start.

Big problem here--most of those parts in the second image don't move.

How do you figure? Let's look at the moving parts - crankshaft, connecting rods (x8), pistons (x8), fuel injectors (x8), valves (x32), rockers (x32), camshafts (x4), timing chains (x2) and turbines in the two turbos. Even if if were not an actual majority of parts, that's a lot of moving parts and even non-moving ones have to be manufactured, which takes up energy.
The far greater simplicity of EV powertrains compared to ICEs should be taken into account when doing these comparisons.

I'm not saying that there aren't advantages to electric cars. It's just they aren't greener than normal cars yet.

I disagree, for all the reasons I stated.

 

[Derec]

It's a very complicated machine and the very most complicated part is the funny little box laying inside the ignition control harness. For some reason, the cover has been taken off and the circuit board is exposed.

Well that reason would be the same as for laying all the parts neatly one next to another - for illustration.

There is a simple reason we drove around for about a century, content with only 9% efficiency, and that was because it was the best there was. Nothing can compete with a gasoline engine for it's combination of power, versatility, and weight. It can operate in any environment on this planet. South Pole, Sahara Desert, there's a gasoline engine that will start up and run with the push of a button. Those days are coming to an end and not a bit too soon.

Mind you, EVs still struggle in extreme envioronments. So there will be niche applications of ICE long after they cease to be mainstream in most of the world.

- - - Updated - - -

Naked flesh is a far superior canvas.

Depends on the flesh.

 

[Derec]

You count the rare earths that the electric car needs that the gasoline one doesn't. You don't get to simply say they would have been mined anyway.

We are spefically talking about Teslas here. Unlike most EVs, which use permanent magnet rotors, Teslas use indicution motors, with a copper squirrel cage instead. No permanent magnet, no need for rare earths. Note that both approaches have advantages and disadvantages, and rare earths are not all that rare.

And note that this not the first report of the lack of greenness of Teslas.

Yes, these strories do come with some regularity. All like this one, they tend to be flawed.

As it currently stands electric cars are one of these feel-good things, not an actual environmental benefit. When our powerplants are carbon free then electric cars will be green, but not until then.

Well they will be even greener, but that doesn't mean they are not somewhat green already. And an upheaval of the automotive industry such as EVs represent takes decades by necessity. We should not have waited for grid to become green to start developing/deploying EVs and I hope that that's not what you are suggesting.

 

[Derec]

There's an awful lot of housing parts in the second picture.

Not that many housing parts. The block, the heads the covers. In addition the fuel rail/lines, intake and exhaust manifolds etc. do not move, but they still don't add up to the moving parts. And even if they do not move, they still take energy to manufacture.

Perhaps if you count each component of the sets of identical ones you get more moving parts than stationary ones.

Why woudn't you? A V8 DOHC has more moving parts and is more complex than a straight 4 DOHC. A V8 DOHC has more moving parts and is more complex than a V8 SOHC. Even if the added compexity comes from repeated parts.

You need to compare like with like. If you compare the Tesla Model S with gasoline cars, you need to compare it to its competitors, not to a Ford Focus.

 

[barbos]

We are spefically talking about Teslas here. Unlike most EVs, which use permanent magnet rotors, Teslas use indicution motors, with a copper squirrel cage instead. No permanent magnet, no need for rare earths. Note that both approaches have advantages and disadvantages, and rare earths are not all that rare.

Lithium-ion batteries use rare-earth too.

 

[Derec]

Basic reason would suggest a car manufacturer that has not yet made a profit, would not be worth more than Ford Motor Company, a firm which has shown consistent profits for over a century. Reason, basic, or any other kind, doesn't seem to apply to this problem.

The stock market loves to price in future expectations into the current value of the stock.

 

[Derec]

Lithium-ion batteries use rare-earth too.

Not to my knowledge. Which rare earth metal is being used? In which type of Li-ion battery?

I think Tesla uses LiNiCoAlO₂ for their cars. None of these is a rare earth element obviously.

 

[ZiprHead]

Ah, a Merc. Thanks.

No, certainly not a Merc with that M logo on the cover.

So my original thought was correct. Thanks for the info.

 

[ZiprHead]

To give Mercs their due though, this is a cutout of the 9G-Tronic transmission as is used in the new E-Class including the new E63.

Quite a complicated beast.

Nah, hardly no moving parts there, dad gum.

 

[Derec]

The buses in my city run on Natural Gas. I also don't see why they couldn't be electric and plugged into a solar power source. If mileage is an issue they can be swapped out no?

They do have those. In general, every time you have a vehicle that makes frequent stops the nopn-idling and regenerative braking of an EV is of great advantage.

 

[ZiprHead]

I remember seeing something about a cab company that went with all electric cabs. The battery module was mounted on the bottom of the cab. When the battery ran close to empty, the driver would go back to the cab company, drive into a robotic apparatus that would remove the drained battery and replace it with one fully charged. The whole process took about a little over a minute and the electric cab as back on the road.

There was also an episode of Wheeler Dealers where they ran across a Maserati Biturbo that had been converted to electric many years ago. Edd, with the help of a company that specialised in converting vehicles to electric, updated the system with modern components.

[YOUTUBE]https://youtu.be/VU8VlgINnio[/YOUTUBE]

 

[Derec]

If some unforeseen disaster suddenly shut down all of the coal and gas plants in the US, the factory would stop production - regardless of their marketing department's claim to being 100% solar.

Only uintil they could jury-rig a bunch of their batteries to the solar panels.

 

[Derec]

Also reminded me of Tesla marketing their wall batteries for home use. They use the same batteries as in their car when in reality lithium-phosphate is certainly more suited for home use because they can be cycled 2000 times, cost less and not flammable (!!!) they are just heavier than ordinary lithium-ion.
So Musk is not averse to bullshitting his followers.

Actually they use a different Li-ion chemistry than their car batteries. From the wiki page:

The daily cycle 7 kWh PW1 battery uses nickel-manganese-cobalt chemistry[9] and can be cycled 5,000 times before warranty expiration.[9][10]

But I think you are right in the broader sense. We use Liu-ion for mobile applications (cell phones, laptops, cars) because Li is the lightest metal (by both molar mass and density) and third-lightest element by molar mass. That makes for good energy denisity by mass of various types of Li-ion batteries. But for stationary use there is no real reason to limit oneself to electrochemistries involving Lithium.

 

[barbos]

Lithium-ion batteries use rare-earth too.

Not to my knowledge. Which rare earth metal is being used? In which type of Li-ion battery?

I think Tesla uses LiNiCoAlO₂ for their cars. None of these is a rare earth element obviously.

Lanthanum is used in electrodes in some amount I think. I know it's used in NiMH for sure even though it's rarely mentioned.

 

[bilby]

If some unforeseen disaster suddenly shut down all of the coal and gas plants in the US, the factory would stop production - regardless of their marketing department's claim to being 100% solar.

Only uintil they could jury-rig a bunch of their batteries to the solar panels.

Sure. A BIG bunch. At enormous cost.

Currently, mains storage batteries cost about $200-$300 per kWh. Even if you only need to allow for one or two cloudy days in a row, you will need a shitload of batteries to be able to store the power used just by that one factory. Mains electricity costs around $0.15 per kWh.

 

[SimpleDon]

Basic reason would suggest a $100,000 sports car is not an environmentally friendly car. An environmentally friendly car is going to look like something somewhere between a 1992 geo metro and a motorcycle. Teslas are toys for rich people.

Basic reason would suggest a car manufacturer that has not yet made a profit, would not be worth more than Ford Motor Company, a firm which has shown consistent profits for over a century. Reason, basic, or any other kind, doesn't seem to apply to this problem.

This is typical of almost all stock market valuations of new, hot companies. Relative valuation of companies is now little more than a measure of the current relative gullibility of rich people and professional fund investors. Both groups have the same problem, too much money to put into the market. Not many companies earn enough in profits to justify their stock valuation according to the P to E accepted yardstick standards of just a few decades ago.

Fortunately, the economy has evolved over the years such that the pseudo-investment in the stock market is not related to the capital investment important to the economy. Except that it now hurts the economy because the profits that provide this money to the rich comes at the cost of wages, which are important and would grow the economy by increasing the demand for products.

 

[crispy]

To give Mercs their due though, this is a cutout of the 9G-Tronic transmission as is used in the new E-Class including the new E63.

Quite a complicated beast.

Nah, hardly no moving parts there, dad gum.

Duh, its a JPEG dad.