Teacher Unions - Bad for Students?

[Bronzeage]

There is no right to form a public sector union in the first amendment. Teachers can associate with whomever they like, but the government can enthusiastically reject their demands and fire them if they want for doing it too. That's what free association means

Correct, and if they do, the entire union can go on strike, which is the whole point of a union. What you seem to want is to make it a crime for one worker to refuse to work if another worker is treated unfairly. You can 'ban' employees from unionizing, but that means having to fire literally everyone who is willing to join the union. That's essentially what you are advocating. It would be a battle of nerves, with poor families suffering the most. And that is of course what conservatives really want. American Conservatism has become little more than a psycopathic hatred of the poor, with no opportunity to exploit, insult or injure them neglected.

Also, keep in mind that union members are also voters, and active ones at that. You can't ban people from voting against politicians who try to prevent them from organizing. But you are fine with big corporations lobbying lawmakers, aren't you? But when actual voters do it, it is somehow undemocratic?

A labor union is a corporation. This means a labor union is created by the same mechanism by which a legal corporation is formed.

Neither are gifts from God or an act of nature.

A labor union exists and must operate within the legal code which defined it and made it possible. It's not a matter of rights. Incorporation is one of the privileges of living under a system of government which has enough power and wherewithal to create such laws and enforce them.

 

[Sarpedon]

Right but wrong, bronzeage. Unions have been corporatized to fit into our legal framework. That is absolutely true. But..There is absolutely nothing stopping people from forming a non-corporative union. Such a union would not be recognized by the government, at least not initially, but it could perform all the functions of a union, without all that corporative stuff. I think it is you who are mistaking a condition that we have created as some kind of given fact.

Early unions were NOT corporations. They were in fact, illegal associations of workers, with no legal contract, no binding framework. Only the agreement of the workers to cooperate. Government legalized unions when they found they could not suppress them. It was only then that unions became corporations. If government interference becomes too onerous, there is absolutely nothing stopping unions from going outside the law again, except the fears of the members. Some would suggest that unions were subverted by becoming recognized corporations.

It is the ability of workers to come together and decide to cooperate that is natural. The corporate trappings are artificial.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Funny how many of these organizations who want to get rid of 'bad teachers' are in favor of getting rid of teachers with a college degree in education, and replace them with a graduate from "Teach For America"'s 5 week course.

Education degrees are usually bottom of the barrel when it comes to expertise in their supposed field of expertise. I'd much have somebody with a real BS degree in say Math or Science etc. and a minor in education, or an outside program. I suspect this idiot teacher has a BS in Education.

How is it possible that the teacher still has a job? She's denying the assertion of the problem, not even the answer.

 

[Nice Squirrel]

Education degrees are usually bottom of the barrel when it comes to expertise in their supposed field of expertise. I'd much have somebody with a real BS degree in say Math or Science etc. and a minor in education, or an outside program. I suspect this idiot teacher has a BS in Education.

How is it possible that the teacher still has a job? She's denying the assertion of the problem, not even the answer.

Homeschooled child.

 

[whichphilosophy]

“It doesn’t matter to the out-of-state groups behind this suit that Minnesota is facing a teacher shortage, nor that high-needs schools are trying to attract more senior teachers, nor the growing body of research showing disparities in income, health and opportunity drive academic inequality — not employment practices,” Specht said.

So this isn't about teaching quality, but that the teachers are allowed to have a union.

Beneath the facade, it seems to be that where they are an easy target for scapegoating.

 

[laughing dog]

Education degrees are usually bottom of the barrel when it comes to expertise in their supposed field of expertise. I'd much have somebody with a real BS degree in say Math or Science etc. and a minor in education, or an outside program. I suspect this idiot teacher has a BS in Education.

How is it possible that the teacher still has a job? She's denying the assertion of the problem, not even the answer.

Why do you assume that this is the work of teacher?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

How is it possible that the teacher still has a job? She's denying the assertion of the problem, not even the answer.

Why do you assume that this is the work of teacher?

Because you know the JPG's on the internet are all true. This could only have been made truer with a small picture of Morgan Freeman added to it with a quote he never said next to the photo.

 

[Nice Squirrel]

How is it possible that the teacher still has a job? She's denying the assertion of the problem, not even the answer.

Why do you assume that this is the work of teacher?

Or that the instructions read: "For questions 4-8 the pizzas are all the same size."

 

[Bronzeage]

Right but wrong, bronzeage. Unions have been corporatized to fit into our legal framework. That is absolutely true. But..There is absolutely nothing stopping people from forming a non-corporative union. Such a union would not be recognized by the government, at least not initially, but it could perform all the functions of a union, without all that corporative stuff. I think it is you who are mistaking a condition that we have created as some kind of given fact.

Early unions were NOT corporations. They were in fact, illegal associations of workers, with no legal contract, no binding framework. Only the agreement of the workers to cooperate. Government legalized unions when they found they could not suppress them. It was only then that unions became corporations. If government interference becomes too onerous, there is absolutely nothing stopping unions from going outside the law again, except the fears of the members. Some would suggest that unions were subverted by becoming recognized corporations.

It is the ability of workers to come together and decide to cooperate that is natural. The corporate trappings are artificial.

The ultimate source of power in any society is a principle known as WWFUYS(we will fuck up your shit). To put it simply, the powers that be, value order over justice, and almost anything else. The greatest threat to power and order is WWFUYS. It comes with chaos and a total breakdown in order.

As you said, the government recognized labor unions because they could not be suppresed. They forced legal corporations to cooperate with unions because the threat of WWFUYS was recognized.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Right but wrong, bronzeage. Unions have been corporatized to fit into our legal framework. That is absolutely true. But..There is absolutely nothing stopping people from forming a non-corporative union. Such a union would not be recognized by the government, at least not initially, but it could perform all the functions of a union, without all that corporative stuff. I think it is you who are mistaking a condition that we have created as some kind of given fact.

Early unions were NOT corporations. They were in fact, illegal associations of workers, with no legal contract, no binding framework. Only the agreement of the workers to cooperate. Government legalized unions when they found they could not suppress them. It was only then that unions became corporations. If government interference becomes too onerous, there is absolutely nothing stopping unions from going outside the law again, except the fears of the members. Some would suggest that unions were subverted by becoming recognized corporations.

It is the ability of workers to come together and decide to cooperate that is natural. The corporate trappings are artificial.

The ultimate source of power in any society is a principle known as WWFUYS(we will fuck up your shit). To put it simply, the powers that be, value order over justice, and almost anything else. The greatest threat to power and order is WWFUYS. It comes with chaos and a total breakdown in order.

As you said, the government recognized labor unions because they could not be suppresed. They forced legal corporations to cooperate with unions because the threat of WWFUYS was recognized.

Huh? In the late 1800's and early 1900's, the big business people would just tell the Government to beat the crap out of the WWFUYS. It worked. They could be suppressed.

 

[ronburgundy]

How is it possible that the teacher still has a job? She's denying the assertion of the problem, not even the answer.

Why do you assume that this is the work of teacher?

It's pretty clear the teacher is marking the answer wrong there. Who else do you think is marking the student's test wrong?

But it is possible that the teacher is just marking it wrong according to the answer guide supplied by the test creator. Most teachers don't create their own tests and answer guides. Its possible that some company actually created this question and just worded it terribly, such that it made the student's answer objectively correct. In fact, the student's answer is the only correct answer to the question being asked, other than maybe saying "Marty also stole 2/6th of Sally's pizza."
The student is actually quite clever and showing logical reasoning, insight, and questioning implicit assumptions (like that the pizzas are the same size). It is doubtful that the question was supposed to require such abstract insightful problem solving, and was just meant to be a simple math knowledge test. I bet the question was assuming that the pizzas were the same size and needed to state this clearly, and then was supposed to ask "Is this possible?" rather than "How is this possible?"

 

[ronburgundy]

Why do you assume that this is the work of teacher?

Or that the instructions read: "For questions 4-8 the pizzas are all the same size."

Is that true? Given the press this story got, I would think that such a fact would have come out by now but can find no one claiming that the test states anywhere that the pizzas are the same size. Without that statement the students answer is not just correct, but the most clearly correct answer.

Also, if that instruction did exist, then there would be no possible correct answer, because it would be impossible for what is described to have occurred, and "It is not possible." is not actually an answer to "How is that possible?" but rather a rejection of the question is moot.

It is an awful question, no matter how you slice it.

That said, I wonder if all the right-wing SJWs getting outraged over this would be happy to have every mistake they have ever made at their job plastered on the internet. My guess is everyone of them has made countless errors as or much greater than this.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Or that the instructions read: "For questions 4-8 the pizzas are all the same size."

Is that true? Given the press this story got,

What press? The Internet isn't the press. We know nothing about the rest of the page which is notably absent.

I would think that such a fact would have come out by now but can find no one claiming that the test states anywhere that the pizzas are the same size. Without that statement the students answer is not just correct, but the most clearly correct answer.

Yup, just like Glen Beck is likely guilty of raping and killing that teenaged girl because he hasn't dispelled the rumors about it.

Also, if that instruction did exist, then there would be no possible correct answer, because it would be impossible for what is described to have occurred, and "It is not possible." is not actually an answer to "How is that possible?" but rather a rejection of the question is moot.

Unless this was part of the lesson in which the test was testing the knowledge of the student for. I never knew this even existed recently. The teacher may as well.

 

[SimpleDon]

Minnesota joins the (small) list of states struggling over the role of teacher unions and their impact on student achievement.

Lawsuit accuses Minnesota of protecting bad teachers at expense of students

Discuss.

This seems to be more of an attack on the idea of an union rather than an attempt to redress an observed problem with the quality of education.

Are you or anyone here aware of any studies that non-union teachers do a better job of teaching than union teachers?

My experience is with both union and nonunion construction workers. Union construction workers are much better trained and have more experience than nonunion ones.

Edit. Once again I didn't notice that this thread was on its sixth page already. I am sure that the opponents of the teacher's unions here have already posted links to numerous studies showing the very thing that this lawsuit is saying, that nonunion teachers and school districts who don't have teachers unions do a much better job of teaching students.

I will try to catch up.

 

[Nice Squirrel]

Or that the instructions read: "For questions 4-8 the pizzas are all the same size."

Is that true? Given the press this story got, I would think that such a fact would have come out by now but can find no one claiming that the test states anywhere that the pizzas are the same size. Without that statement the students answer is not just correct, but the most clearly correct answer.

I don't know do we have any context for this? Do we know anything beyond the green marker?

 

[marc]

Every time I hear of some measure to help find and get rid of 'bad teachers', it usually ends up being something stupid that just puts more pressure on good teachers, hampers teachers ability to teach, or even encourages bad teaching practices. I know several teachers, and if anything they are way underpaid for the work they do.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Every time I hear of some measure to help find and get rid of 'bad teachers', it usually ends up being something stupid that just puts more pressure on good teachers, hampers teachers ability to teach, or even encourages bad teaching practices. I know several teachers, and if anything they are way underpaid for the work they do.

It is an extremely naive thing. It is something that you should ask when you are young and dumb, but after a little reflection, you should realize it is actually an absurdly difficult to somewhat impossible task to create a "system" to automate the process. Oddly, these are the same people who think you can't teach a car to drive... because it is too hard and you need human judgement. But be certain a test and a computer can suss out the bad teachers from the good.

The only way to know if a teacher is good is to have management that is gifted at telling good teachers from bad.

You'd have to be an idiot to think a post of an image with a single question on Reddit is clear evidence of the endemic existence of bad teachers. Well... actually it could be evidence that the people who think it is evidence had bad teachers themselves... but it could also mean that they just didn't pay attention in class.

 

[laughing dog]

Why do you assume that this is the work of teacher?

It's pretty clear the teacher is marking the answer wrong there.

Are you under the impression that if something is on the internet, it must be true? It could be someone's idea of a joke or someone trying to make teachers look bad.

 

[ronburgundy]

It's pretty clear the teacher is marking the answer wrong there.

Are you under the impression that if something is on the internet, it must be true? It could be someone's idea of a joke or someone trying to make teachers look bad.

The question itself is absurd. So, some educator does look rather bad, unless you assume that someone went to lengths to create a fake question, make it #8 for realism, write a fake kid's answer with their toes for realistic handwriting, then write a fake teacher response. Is that at all possible? Sure, but odds are much higher that it is real, and especially that the question is real.
Would you favor such a conspiracy theory if it were about claiming that a video of a cop beating a black man was completely staged by BLM to make cops look bad?

Test makers and teachers make mistakes all the time because all people do and they are human. Don't allow the fact that irrational ideologues are using a mistake to claim all teachers are evil incompetents to lead you respond with counter-irrationality that this is more likely a complete hoax than a teacher mistake.

 

[Nice Squirrel]

Are you under the impression that if something is on the internet, it must be true? It could be someone's idea of a joke or someone trying to make teachers look bad.

The question itself is absurd. So, some educator does look rather bad, unless you assume that someone went to lengths to create a fake question, make it #8 for realism, write a fake kid's answer with their toes for realistic handwriting, then write a fake teacher response. Is that at all possible?

Or it could be a parent, or a tutor, or a 13-year old grading the work of her younger brother. Without context of the source, we don't know.

ETA I've checked there is no known source for this.