Teacher Unions - Bad for Students?

[Jimmy Higgins]

Are you under the impression that if something is on the internet, it must be true? It could be someone's idea of a joke or someone trying to make teachers look bad.

The question itself is absurd.

Out of the context of a potential class lesson, perhaps. Or maybe the question makes perfect sense in teaching a student to either question a statement or to understand potential differences that aren't initially raised in the question.

So, some educator does look rather bad, unless you assume that someone went to lengths to create a fake question, make it #8 for realism, write a fake kid's answer with their toes for realistic handwriting, then write a fake teacher response. Is that at all possible? Sure, but odds are much higher that it is real, and especially that the question is real.

It is very possible the parent didn't understand what the answer was supposed to be.

Test makers and teachers make mistakes all the time because all people do and they are human. Don't allow the fact that irrational ideologues are using a mistake to claim all teachers are evil incompetents to lead you respond with counter-irrationality that this is more likely a complete hoax than a teacher mistake.

Honestly, based on the known information about the question, there is nothing in which to make an informed judgment. Yet, it hasn't stopped people from drawing conclusions from insufficient data... which of course is nothing new.

A teacher could be in error. The student could be in error. A parent may be right or wrong. We have no clue the truth.

 

[SimpleDon]

If it were made fully s transparent, I see little justifiable purpose for teacher's unions. Educating our children is an issue politicians run on. Politicians are legislators. They can put legislation in place regarding teacher pay etc. If they do not do so, they can be voted out. So unlike for profit companies (unless it is a private school), I don't see why the will and priorities of the populace can't regulate this without a union need. I think the same of most other government worker unions. They key now lacking is full transparency and accountability. Make sure the voters know who voted to screw over teachers etc, from a trustworthy government source available to all. And the opponents can run on that.

So you believe that non-teachers know more about teaching than teachers do. That is more than a little bit counterintuitive.

Can you give some examples of situations where a teachers union is less transparent than school system without a union?

The union doesn't hire and fire the teachers. Generally, it just does collectively what an individual teacher without an union has to do individually. The union improves the bargaining power of the teachers.

Especially in the situation of a teacher being fired I would think having an union would make the process more transparent, not less.

 

[laughing dog]

Are you under the impression that if something is on the internet, it must be true? It could be someone's idea of a joke or someone trying to make teachers look bad.

The question itself is absurd. So, some educator does look rather bad, unless you assume that someone went to lengths to create a fake question, make it #8 for realism, write a fake kid's answer with their toes for realistic handwriting, then write a fake teacher response. Is that at all possible? Sure, but odds are much higher that it is real, and especially that the question is real.

Unlike you, I am not assuming anything nor am I accepting on faith anything that is posted on internet. I asked a simple question of someone who blindly accepted as true something posted on the internet and who has a long history of mistaking fiction for fact. Do you have something substantive to add (like a link verifying this is the work of a teacher)?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

The question itself is absurd. So, some educator does look rather bad, unless you assume that someone went to lengths to create a fake question, make it #8 for realism, write a fake kid's answer with their toes for realistic handwriting, then write a fake teacher response. Is that at all possible? Sure, but odds are much higher that it is real, and especially that the question is real.

Unlike you, I am not assuming anything nor am I accepting on faith anything that is posted on internet. I asked a simple question of someone who blindly accepted as true something posted on the internet and who has a long history of mistaking fiction for fact. Do you have something substantive to add (like a link verifying this is the work of a teacher)?

Or even the context of the question.

 

[Horatio Parker]

How is teacher effectiveness measured?

Moving a teacher to a class of smart kids or dumb kids says what about the teacher?

Michelle Rhee made a career out her schools changing demographic.

What the reformers want is to be able to remove any teacher for any reason, and pay them all shit. Since all they'll have to do is follow the materials created by the publishing industry.

 

[Malintent]

I think you quoted a RESPONSE to the claim, not part of the claim.

It is part of the article, so why shouldn't it be part of the discussion of the article?

This is about ensuring quality education... those that wish to protect the power of the union have responded with the claim you quoted... I think.

That does not keep the claim from being relevant to the discussion.

because you are attempting to use a counter argument to claim the original argument is internally inconsistent.. It' like two people are having a discussion and one says the sky is black and the other says the sky is white, then you as a third person turn to one of the people and say their argument is invalid because it can't be both black and white... their argument is that it is one of the things, not the other.

That is what it sounded like is happening here...

 

[Malintent]

How is teacher effectiveness measured?

Moving a teacher to a class of smart kids or dumb kids says what about the teacher?

Michelle Rhee made a career out her schools changing demographic.

What the reformers want is to be able to remove any teacher for any reason, and pay them all shit. Since all they'll have to do is follow the materials created by the publishing industry.

... and the unions want nothing but to ensure any teacher can never be reprimanded or fired for any reason whatsoever and to help cover up any problems, Education be damned!

Untrue superlatives can be thrown back and forth all day. The reality is somewhere in between and this is what the dialog is about.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Why do you assume that this is the work of teacher?

Or that the instructions read: "For questions 4-8 the pizzas are all the same size."

Except the question asks "how is this possible?"--implying that it is possible. There's a simple explanation of how it's possible--the student found it.

Whoever graded it--which is certainly not the person who wrote the question in the first place--completely failed it.

 

[coloradoatheist]

How is teacher effectiveness measured?

Moving a teacher to a class of smart kids or dumb kids says what about the teacher?

Michelle Rhee made a career out her schools changing demographic.

What the reformers want is to be able to remove any teacher for any reason, and pay them all shit. Since all they'll have to do is follow the materials created by the publishing industry.

The issue has been that teachers just say, "We can't measure it, but pay us more"

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Why do you assume that this is the work of teacher?

It's pretty clear the teacher is marking the answer wrong there. Who else do you think is marking the student's test wrong?

But it is possible that the teacher is just marking it wrong according to the answer guide supplied by the test creator. Most teachers don't create their own tests and answer guides. Its possible that some company actually created this question and just worded it terribly, such that it made the student's answer objectively correct. In fact, the student's answer is the only correct answer to the question being asked, other than maybe saying "Marty also stole 2/6th of Sally's pizza."
The student is actually quite clever and showing logical reasoning, insight, and questioning implicit assumptions (like that the pizzas are the same size). It is doubtful that the question was supposed to require such abstract insightful problem solving, and was just meant to be a simple math knowledge test. I bet the question was assuming that the pizzas were the same size and needed to state this clearly, and then was supposed to ask "Is this possible?" rather than "How is this possible?"

I don't see a problem with the question. It's simply making you consider that fractions are of something, not just abstract numbers. Given the "how is this possible?" question it makes the student think about how it applies to the real world. Making them think of the real-world application is a good thing in my book.

A question like this doesn't belong on something like the SAT but for a quiz in class I'll give it a thumbs up. (It's really more about learning than about testing knowledge.)

 

[Horatio Parker]

How is teacher effectiveness measured?

Moving a teacher to a class of smart kids or dumb kids says what about the teacher?

Michelle Rhee made a career out her schools changing demographic.

What the reformers want is to be able to remove any teacher for any reason, and pay them all shit. Since all they'll have to do is follow the materials created by the publishing industry.

... and the unions want nothing but to ensure any teacher can never be reprimanded or fired for any reason whatsoever and to help cover up any problems, Education be damned!

Untrue superlatives can be thrown back and forth all day. The reality is somewhere in between and this is what the dialog is about.

Are you suggesting that teachers will not lose pay and benefits along with security if the union disappears?

Applying glibertarian churn and burn, so called market forces, will not improve education, but it will fatten some bottom lines.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

How is teacher effectiveness measured?

Moving a teacher to a class of smart kids or dumb kids says what about the teacher?

Michelle Rhee made a career out her schools changing demographic.

What the reformers want is to be able to remove any teacher for any reason, and pay them all shit. Since all they'll have to do is follow the materials created by the publishing industry.

I would measure the effectiveness by looking at how much students improve. (Not on the final level.)

Also, I think asking the A students (in general, not specifically in that class) for their opinions on who is good and bad would do a fair job.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

How is teacher effectiveness measured?

Moving a teacher to a class of smart kids or dumb kids says what about the teacher?

Michelle Rhee made a career out her schools changing demographic.

What the reformers want is to be able to remove any teacher for any reason, and pay them all shit. Since all they'll have to do is follow the materials created by the publishing industry.

I would measure the effectiveness by looking at how much students improve. (Not on the final level.)

So a school that has well performing students needs to improve until perfection? When a school has an ever changing student body, looking for improvements is like trying to shot a missile out of the sky. The question is, "Are the teachers getting the most of their students?"

Also, I think asking the A students (in general, not specifically in that class) for their opinions on who is good and bad would do a fair job.

Fair job of what? And why A and not B? B students not smart enough to have an opinion? Are the C and D students not allowed to say why they think the teacher isn't reaching them? Anecdotally I remember my Algebra II teacher and me never clicking (Something like a C- for the year, got an A+ in Pre-Calc).

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

How do we know this is real? Do third graders really get the word 'reasonableness' on their math questions? Why is the next question cut-off to the right? Why is the next question not at all aligned to the previous question? What is the primary source for this worksheet?

 

[Horatio Parker]

How do we know this is real? Do third graders really get the word 'reasonableness' on their math questions? Why is the next question cut-off to the right? Why is the next question not at all aligned to the previous question? What is the primary source for this worksheet?

The source is Reddit, according to the internets, so YMMV.

But, how bout this, assuming it's real, how do we know that the teacher isn't grading to the test. IOW, perhaps administration is not interested in teacher baloney about creative thinking, just mark the friggin test and shut up. There's an assumption here that if anyone is at fault, it's the teacher.

Of course, a predisposition in that direction is unpossible.

 

[laughing dog]

The issue has been that teachers just say, "We can't measure it, but pay us more"

Everybody who works wants to get paid more. More importantly, The issue is that as nation we demand more and more of schools (and teachers) in terms of social work and instruction - why should they be paid more?

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

The source is Reddit, according to the internets, so YMMV.

The sheet looks altered to me. I looked it up to try to find the source on the Internet. I saw the reddit.com site was one of a gazillion with a pic with no attributable source to it.

But, how bout this, assuming it's real, how do we know that the teacher isn't grading to the test. IOW, perhaps administration is not interested in teacher baloney about creative thinking, just mark the friggin test and shut up. There's an assumption here that if anyone is at fault, it's the teacher.

Of course, a predisposition in that direction is unpossible.

Teachers can be dumbasses but sometimes details can give better understanding. The young child could have used the word "bigger" to mean "more" as if they remembered the names in reverse. The teacher could have asked for more information from the student and the student confirmed their confusion. Even though when we read it we understand it to mean as we think, actually bigger.

It's also entirely possible that the teacher is a dumbass or that the teacher misinterpreted the student's answer as I have described above, thinking the student is a dumbass. The student's parents could and should tell the teacher they are wrong and get it corrected.

See, I think that is what parents would typically do--get it corrected. Then, there would be nothing to post on the Internet. Because parents would normally do that and because the sheet itself looks very odd, I have to wonder if this whole scenario is made up.

 

[Horatio Parker]

The sheet looks altered to me. I looked it up to try to find the source on the Internet. I saw the reddit.com site was one of a gazillion with a pic with no attributable source to it.

But, how bout this, assuming it's real, how do we know that the teacher isn't grading to the test. IOW, perhaps administration is not interested in teacher baloney about creative thinking, just mark the friggin test and shut up. There's an assumption here that if anyone is at fault, it's the teacher.

Of course, a predisposition in that direction is unpossible.

Teachers can be dumbasses but sometimes details can give better understanding. The young child could have used the word "bigger" to mean "more" as if they remembered the names in reverse. The teacher could have asked for more information from the student and the student confirmed their confusion. Even though when we read it we understand it to mean as we think, actually bigger.

It's also entirely possible that the teacher is a dumbass or that the teacher misinterpreted the student's answer as I have described above, thinking the student is a dumbass. The student's parents could and should tell the teacher they are wrong and get it corrected.

See, I think that is what parents would typically do--get it corrected. Then, there would be nothing to post on the Internet. Because parents would normally do that and because the sheet itself looks very odd, I have to wonder if this whole scenario is made up.

You're still assuming that the teacher is the problem, and that the teacher has the authority to decide to give credit based on a reasonable argument. I'm suggesting that that may not be the case.

What's a parent to do if the ultimate authority is Kaplan, and their answer is we'll take your point under advisement. The teacher may have nothing to do with it. Can teachers give credit for "wrong" answers for any reason?

 

[SimpleDon]

So our thread that started out asking if teachers unions are bad for the students ended up de-evolved into a discussion about a single exam question that is maybe mismarked or maybe isn't mismarked that proves that our education system is or isn't broken and it is or isn't all due to the curse of trade unionism and its protection of incompetent teachers.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

From the op article:
At issue are state laws, such as the Teacher Tenure Act, that grant layoff protection to teachers after three years on the job, require a lengthy procedure to fire them and set up a system where teachers with less seniority are fired first regardless of their performance, known as Last in First Out.

Last In First Out is for lay offs not firings in general. Furthermore, it doesn't work this way "Last In First Out" since often teachers who can retire but choose not to are offered deals to retire as part of mass layoffs.

Before unions the school had a lot of power to fire teachers for any reason. Teachers couldn't get equivalent legal assistance to fight the school/govt over their firing. They could be fired even for illegitimate reasons but the school/govt could make stuff up. Having a union gives teachers some protection.

Regarding tenure, teachers will get tenure after several years of proving themselves through evaluations. They will hardly be incompetent once tenured in ~3 years. After that time, they are required to continue their education every year. Deficits in evaluations will also be cause for them to improve through additional learning.

Teachers can still end up being fired in the case of incompetence or abusive behavior. Parents can and do complain and the teachers feel the pressure from the local govt when that happens. Multiple complaints about a teacher will have an effect on their jobs.

So, the unattributed image posted to this thread is relevant in that if the parents complained about the issue it would be recorded, put pressure on the teacher and their bosses, etc.

Here's an article that claims to have 6 reasons why teachers' unions are good for kids:
http://www.alternet.org/6-reasons-teachers-unions-are-good-kids