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“Revolution in Thought: A new look at determinism and free will"

Pg

A- light is required for vision, and travels at a finite speed.

B - We see objects instantly in real time.

Do you see that A and B are mutually exclusive?
Lessans tried to show the reason we see in real time due to how the brain and eyes function, not light. This changes everything and makes his claim feasible. You keep going back to light, which is why you will never understand why there is no violation of physics.
Still does not explain away the logical problem.

From the book as it is written I have no idea what he was actually thinking.

You repeatedly claim the image is not conveyed by light but light is required for vision, the image is already at the eye. Weird to say the least.

If it is about how the eye and brain works he must not have read any science. His use of the word afferent mean what?.

The book is poorly written.
 
Pg

A- light is required for vision, and travels at a finite speed.

B - We see objects instantly in real time.

Do you see that A and B are mutually exclusive?
Lessans tried to show the reason we see in real time due to how the brain and eyes function, not light. This changes everything and makes his claim feasible. You keep going back to light, which is why you will never understand why there is no violation of physics.
Still does not explain away the logical problem.

From the book as it is written I have no idea what he was actually thinking.

You repeatedly claim the image is not conveyed by light but light is required for vision, the image is already at the eye. Weird to say the least.

If it is about how the eye and brain works he must not have read any science. His use of the word afferent mean what?.

The book is poorly written.
Sorry you can’t follow his reasoning. That’s on you, not me.
 
Pg

A- light is required for vision, and travels at a finite speed.

B - We see objects instantly in real time.

Do you see that A and B are mutually exclusive?
Lessans tried to show the reason we see in real time due to how the brain and eyes function, not light. This changes everything and makes his claim feasible. You keep going back to light, which is why you will never understand why there is no violation of physics.

The brain and eyes do not function in seeing unless light from a source, or reflected light, reaches our eyes, as even you concede.

Yet again:

How is it possible for light to be at the eye instantly even as you concede that it takes light time to get to the eye?
OMG, am I in a Twilight Zone? Do you think asking the same question for the 100th time is going to change my answer? :unsure:
 
Pg

A- light is required for vision, and travels at a finite speed.

B - We see objects instantly in real time.

Do you see that A and B are mutually exclusive?
Lessans tried to show the reason we see in real time due to how the brain and eyes function, not light. This changes everything and makes his claim feasible. You keep going back to light, which is why you will never understand why there is no violation of physics.
Still does not explain away the logical problem.

From the book as it is written I have no idea what he was actually thinking.
I don't believe you read Chapter Four when I posted it. You couldn't have.
You repeatedly claim the image is not conveyed by light but light is required for vision, the image is already at the eye. Weird to say the least.
There is nothing illogical about saying the image does not travel through space/time over eons. It sounds absurd if you think about it. It is much more logical to think that we see the object in real time as long as the light is at the eye when we are focused on the object itself. If there is not enough light at the eye or telescope to see the object, it just means that the object is either too far away or too dim for it to be observed.
If it is about how the eye and brain works he must not have read any science. His use of the word afferent mean what?.

The book is poorly written.
Opinions are like assholes: everybody has one. :confused2:
 
Pg

Your claim about real time instant vision is logically a problem based on your own words.

Now you try and wiggle out of it by saying Lessans was talking about how the brain and eye works.

How does it work?
 
Pg

Your claim about real time instant vision is logically a problem based on your own words.

Now you try and wiggle out of it by saying Lessans was talking about how the brain and eye works.

How does it work?
Where is it logically a problem, based on my own words? Where did I wiggle out of it? He gave his observations. He also said it could be tested further. As far as the mechanism, everything remains the same, with the exception of seeing a virtual image. Light strikes the photoreceptors, which connect through the optic nerve to the brain. This connection allows our thought processes and experiences that are held in memory to be integrated with new visual information that adds to our ever-expanding experiential repertoire. I don't think anyone knows how the brain works down to every neuron. They don't even know how consciousness works. It's through observation, not necessarily dissection, that we can have a better grasp of how the brain functions.
 
There is nothing illogical about saying the image does not travel through space/time over eons.

But, as people have been telling you for years, NO ONE says the “image” travels through spacetime over eons. LIGHT travels, not an IMAGE. An image is formed IN THE MIND.

It sounds absurd if you think about it. It is much more logical to think that we see the object in real time as long as the light is at the eye when we are focused on the object itself.

And as you yourself concede, it takes time for the light to get to the eye! So by your own admission real-time seeing is obviously impossible. Du-oh!
 
Pg

You are either sandbagging us or you lack any capacity to reason logically and be honest

We all seem to agree there is nothing in the book That would explain why despite all your years focused on the books you are unable to answer questions and explain.
 
His definition of determinism is that we are “compelled of our own free will” to “move in the direction of greater satisfaction.”

The very phrase is asinine, since “compulsion” and “free will” are opposites.

It is also obviously idiotic to suggest that past conditions, including our genetics, do not affect our present choices.

It doesn't make sense in any way you look at it.
It makes absolute sense if you understand that we are always moving in the direction of greater satisfaction from the moment we get up in the morning to the time we go to bed. You are confused DBT. You are in a defensive position trying to protect determinism. We don't have free will, and the author demonstrated why, yet you don't trust him. It's a misconception on your part.
---------------------------

In reality, we are carried along on the wings of time or life during every moment of our existence and have no say in this matter whatsoever. We cannot stop ourselves from being born and are compelled to either live out our lives the best we can or commit suicide. Is it possible to disagree with this? However, to prove that what we do of our own free will, of our own desire because we want to do it, is also beyond control, it is necessary to employ mathematical (undeniable) reasoning. Therefore, since it is absolutely impossible for man to be both dead and alive at the same time, and since it is absolutely impossible for a person to desire committing suicide unless dissatisfied with life (regardless of the reason), we are given the ability to demonstrate a revealing and undeniable relation.

Every motion, from the beating heart to the slightest reflex action, from all inner to outer movements of the body, indicates that life is never satisfied or content to remain in one position for always, like an inanimate object, which position shall be termed ‘death.’ I shall now call the present moment of time or life here, for the purpose of clarification, and the next moment coming up there. You are now standing on this present moment of time and space called here, and you are given two alternatives: either live or kill yourself; either move to the next spot called there or remain where you are without moving a hair’s breadth by committing suicide.

“I prefer. . .”

Excuse the interruption, but the very fact that you started to answer me or didn’t commit suicide at that moment makes it obvious that you were not satisfied to stay in one position, which is death or here, and prefer moving off that spot to there, which motion is life. Consequently, the motion of life, which is any motion from here to there, is a movement away from that which dissatisfies; otherwise, had you been satisfied to remain here or where you are, you would never have moved to there. Since the motion of life constantly moves away from here to there, which is an expression of dissatisfaction with the present position, it must obviously move constantly in the direction of greater satisfaction. It should be obvious that our desire to live, to move off the spot called here, is determined by a law over which we have no control, because even if we should kill ourselves, we are choosing what gives us greater satisfaction; otherwise, we would not kill ourselves. The truth of the matter is that at any particular moment, the motion of man is not free, for all life obeys this invariable law. He is constantly compelled by his nature to make choices and decisions and to prefer, of whatever options are available during his lifetime, that which he considers better for himself and his set of circumstances. For example, when he found that a discovery like the electric bulb was for his benefit in comparison to candlelight, he was compelled to prefer it, for his motion, just being alive, has always been in the direction of greater satisfaction, which is the direction life is compelled to take. Consequently, during every moment of man’s progress, he always did what he had to do because he had no choice. Although this demonstration proves that man’s will is not free, your mind may not be accustomed to grasping these type relations, so I will elaborate.

Suppose you wanted very much of two alternatives, A, which we shall designate as something considered evil by society, instead of B, the humdrum of your regular routine. Could you possibly pick B at that particular moment of time if A is preferred as a better alternative when nothing could dissuade you from your decision, not even the threat of the law? What if the clergy, given two alternatives, choose A, which shall now represent something considered good, instead of B, that which is judged evil; would it be possible for them to prefer the latter when the former is available as an alternative? If it is utterly impossible to choose B in this comparison, are they not compelled, by their very nature, to prefer A? And how can they be free when the favorable difference between A and B is the compulsion of their choice and the motion of life in the direction of greater satisfaction? To be free, according to the definition of free will, man would be able to prefer one of two alternatives, either the one he wants or the one he doesn’t want, which is an absolute impossibility because selecting what he doesn’t want when what he does want is available as an alternative is a motion in the direction of dissatisfaction. In other words, if man were free, he could actually prefer of several alternatives the one that gives him the least satisfaction, which would reverse the direction of his life and make him prefer the impossible.

I have nothing to defend. How the eyes and brain work in generating sight is well enough understood to dismiss the authors claim of light at the eye/instant vision, including modified determinism in relation to world peace, as absurd.

These ideas are never going to be widely accepted, because they have no merit.
 
His definition of determinism is that we are “compelled of our own free will” to “move in the direction of greater satisfaction.”

The very phrase is asinine, since “compulsion” and “free will” are opposites.

It is also obviously idiotic to suggest that past conditions, including our genetics, do not affect our present choices.

It doesn't make sense in any way you look at it.
It makes absolute sense if you understand that we are always moving in the direction of greater satisfaction from the moment we get up in the morning to the time we go to bed. You are confused DBT. You are in a defensive position trying to protect determinism. We don't have free will, and the author demonstrated why, yet you don't trust him. It's a misconception on your part.
---------------------------

In reality, we are carried along on the wings of time or life during every moment of our existence and have no say in this matter whatsoever. We cannot stop ourselves from being born and are compelled to either live out our lives the best we can or commit suicide. Is it possible to disagree with this? However, to prove that what we do of our own free will, of our own desire because we want to do it, is also beyond control, it is necessary to employ mathematical (undeniable) reasoning. Therefore, since it is absolutely impossible for man to be both dead and alive at the same time, and since it is absolutely impossible for a person to desire committing suicide unless dissatisfied with life (regardless of the reason), we are given the ability to demonstrate a revealing and undeniable relation.

Every motion, from the beating heart to the slightest reflex action, from all inner to outer movements of the body, indicates that life is never satisfied or content to remain in one position for always, like an inanimate object, which position shall be termed ‘death.’ I shall now call the present moment of time or life here, for the purpose of clarification, and the next moment coming up there. You are now standing on this present moment of time and space called here, and you are given two alternatives: either live or kill yourself; either move to the next spot called there or remain where you are without moving a hair’s breadth by committing suicide.

“I prefer. . .”

Excuse the interruption, but the very fact that you started to answer me or didn’t commit suicide at that moment makes it obvious that you were not satisfied to stay in one position, which is death or here, and prefer moving off that spot to there, which motion is life. Consequently, the motion of life, which is any motion from here to there, is a movement away from that which dissatisfies; otherwise, had you been satisfied to remain here or where you are, you would never have moved to there. Since the motion of life constantly moves away from here to there, which is an expression of dissatisfaction with the present position, it must obviously move constantly in the direction of greater satisfaction. It should be obvious that our desire to live, to move off the spot called here, is determined by a law over which we have no control, because even if we should kill ourselves, we are choosing what gives us greater satisfaction; otherwise, we would not kill ourselves. The truth of the matter is that at any particular moment, the motion of man is not free, for all life obeys this invariable law. He is constantly compelled by his nature to make choices and decisions and to prefer, of whatever options are available during his lifetime, that which he considers better for himself and his set of circumstances. For example, when he found that a discovery like the electric bulb was for his benefit in comparison to candlelight, he was compelled to prefer it, for his motion, just being alive, has always been in the direction of greater satisfaction, which is the direction life is compelled to take. Consequently, during every moment of man’s progress, he always did what he had to do because he had no choice. Although this demonstration proves that man’s will is not free, your mind may not be accustomed to grasping these type relations, so I will elaborate.

Suppose you wanted very much of two alternatives, A, which we shall designate as something considered evil by society, instead of B, the humdrum of your regular routine. Could you possibly pick B at that particular moment of time if A is preferred as a better alternative when nothing could dissuade you from your decision, not even the threat of the law? What if the clergy, given two alternatives, choose A, which shall now represent something considered good, instead of B, that which is judged evil; would it be possible for them to prefer the latter when the former is available as an alternative? If it is utterly impossible to choose B in this comparison, are they not compelled, by their very nature, to prefer A? And how can they be free when the favorable difference between A and B is the compulsion of their choice and the motion of life in the direction of greater satisfaction? To be free, according to the definition of free will, man would be able to prefer one of two alternatives, either the one he wants or the one he doesn’t want, which is an absolute impossibility because selecting what he doesn’t want when what he does want is available as an alternative is a motion in the direction of dissatisfaction. In other words, if man were free, he could actually prefer of several alternatives the one that gives him the least satisfaction, which would reverse the direction of his life and make him prefer the impossible.

I have nothing to defend. How the eyes and brain work in generating sight is well enough understood to dismiss the authors claim of light at the eye/instant vision, including modified determinism in relation to world peace, as absurd.

These ideas are never going to be widely accepted, because they have no merit.
All you are doing is defending the conventional definition, refusing to understand that there is another side which says that determinism cannot cause us to do anything we don't want to do (note: but please understand that this doesn't make our will free), which means that we are responsible for what we do because we can't shift what is our responsibility by saying determinism caused our behavior. Nothing can cause us to do anything we don't consent to. That is a fallacy. That was why it was necessary to make this important distinction. I can see that you have no questions or interest, but I can't hold you responsible because I know you are moving in the direction of greater satisfaction, and for you to be satisfied, you have to defend your position, even though the author's clarification can bring about an enduring peace.
 
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Pg

A- light is required for vision, and travels at a finite speed.

B - We see objects instantly in real time.

Do you see that A and B are mutually exclusive?
Lessans tried to show the reason we see in real time due to how the brain and eyes function, not light. This changes everything and makes his claim feasible. You keep going back to light, which is why you will never understand why there is no violation of physics.
Still does not explain away the logical problem.

From the book as it is written I have no idea what he was actually thinking.
I don't believe you read Chapter Four when I posted it. You couldn't have.
You repeatedly claim the image is not conveyed by light but light is required for vision, the image is already at the eye. Weird to say the least.
There is nothing illogical about saying the image does not travel through space/time over eons. It sounds absurd if you think about it. It is much more logical to think that we see the object in real time as long as the light is at the eye when we are focused on the object itself. If there is not enough light at the eye or telescope to see the object, it just means that the object is either too far away or too dim for it to be observed.
If it is about how the eye and brain works he must not have read any science. His use of the word afferent mean what?.

The book is poorly written.
Opinions are like assholes: everybody has one. :confused2:

Opinions are like assholes: everybody has one.

Is this the great Lessans' secret that will change the world?

You are trying to 'sell us a bill of goods'.
 
Pg

A- light is required for vision, and travels at a finite speed.

B - We see objects instantly in real time.

Do you see that A and B are mutually exclusive?
Lessans tried to show the reason we see in real time due to how the brain and eyes function, not light. This changes everything and makes his claim feasible. You keep going back to light, which is why you will never understand why there is no violation of physics.
Still does not explain away the logical problem.

From the book as it is written I have no idea what he was actually thinking.
I don't believe you read Chapter Four when I posted it. You couldn't have.
You repeatedly claim the image is not conveyed by light but light is required for vision, the image is already at the eye. Weird to say the least.
There is nothing illogical about saying the image does not travel through space/time over eons. It sounds absurd if you think about it. It is much more logical to think that we see the object in real time as long as the light is at the eye when we are focused on the object itself. If there is not enough light at the eye or telescope to see the object, it just means that the object is either too far away or too dim for it to be observed.
If it is about how the eye and brain works he must not have read any science. His use of the word afferent mean what?.

The book is poorly written.
Opinions are like assholes: everybody has one. :confused2:

Opinions are like assholes: everybody has one.

Is this the great Lessans' secret that will change the world?

You are trying to 'sell us a bill of goods'.
I’m not selling you a bill of goods!
 
Why would you say that Pg?

You know, the early bird gets the worm. Think about it.
 
Why would you say that Pg?

You know, the early bird gets the worm. Think about it.

Why would you say that?

The early bird gets the worm is the secret to whirled peas, if only worms were peas and could be whirled. Well I suppose they could be whirled but they’d still not be peas, just drecky brown sludge. Think about it.

No whirled peas for birds! :sadcheer:
 
His definition of determinism is that we are “compelled of our own free will” to “move in the direction of greater satisfaction.”

The very phrase is asinine, since “compulsion” and “free will” are opposites.

It is also obviously idiotic to suggest that past conditions, including our genetics, do not affect our present choices.

It doesn't make sense in any way you look at it.
It makes absolute sense if you understand that we are always moving in the direction of greater satisfaction from the moment we get up in the morning to the time we go to bed. You are confused DBT. You are in a defensive position trying to protect determinism. We don't have free will, and the author demonstrated why, yet you don't trust him. It's a misconception on your part.
---------------------------

In reality, we are carried along on the wings of time or life during every moment of our existence and have no say in this matter whatsoever. We cannot stop ourselves from being born and are compelled to either live out our lives the best we can or commit suicide. Is it possible to disagree with this? However, to prove that what we do of our own free will, of our own desire because we want to do it, is also beyond control, it is necessary to employ mathematical (undeniable) reasoning. Therefore, since it is absolutely impossible for man to be both dead and alive at the same time, and since it is absolutely impossible for a person to desire committing suicide unless dissatisfied with life (regardless of the reason), we are given the ability to demonstrate a revealing and undeniable relation.

Every motion, from the beating heart to the slightest reflex action, from all inner to outer movements of the body, indicates that life is never satisfied or content to remain in one position for always, like an inanimate object, which position shall be termed ‘death.’ I shall now call the present moment of time or life here, for the purpose of clarification, and the next moment coming up there. You are now standing on this present moment of time and space called here, and you are given two alternatives: either live or kill yourself; either move to the next spot called there or remain where you are without moving a hair’s breadth by committing suicide.

“I prefer. . .”

Excuse the interruption, but the very fact that you started to answer me or didn’t commit suicide at that moment makes it obvious that you were not satisfied to stay in one position, which is death or here, and prefer moving off that spot to there, which motion is life. Consequently, the motion of life, which is any motion from here to there, is a movement away from that which dissatisfies; otherwise, had you been satisfied to remain here or where you are, you would never have moved to there. Since the motion of life constantly moves away from here to there, which is an expression of dissatisfaction with the present position, it must obviously move constantly in the direction of greater satisfaction. It should be obvious that our desire to live, to move off the spot called here, is determined by a law over which we have no control, because even if we should kill ourselves, we are choosing what gives us greater satisfaction; otherwise, we would not kill ourselves. The truth of the matter is that at any particular moment, the motion of man is not free, for all life obeys this invariable law. He is constantly compelled by his nature to make choices and decisions and to prefer, of whatever options are available during his lifetime, that which he considers better for himself and his set of circumstances. For example, when he found that a discovery like the electric bulb was for his benefit in comparison to candlelight, he was compelled to prefer it, for his motion, just being alive, has always been in the direction of greater satisfaction, which is the direction life is compelled to take. Consequently, during every moment of man’s progress, he always did what he had to do because he had no choice. Although this demonstration proves that man’s will is not free, your mind may not be accustomed to grasping these type relations, so I will elaborate.

Suppose you wanted very much of two alternatives, A, which we shall designate as something considered evil by society, instead of B, the humdrum of your regular routine. Could you possibly pick B at that particular moment of time if A is preferred as a better alternative when nothing could dissuade you from your decision, not even the threat of the law? What if the clergy, given two alternatives, choose A, which shall now represent something considered good, instead of B, that which is judged evil; would it be possible for them to prefer the latter when the former is available as an alternative? If it is utterly impossible to choose B in this comparison, are they not compelled, by their very nature, to prefer A? And how can they be free when the favorable difference between A and B is the compulsion of their choice and the motion of life in the direction of greater satisfaction? To be free, according to the definition of free will, man would be able to prefer one of two alternatives, either the one he wants or the one he doesn’t want, which is an absolute impossibility because selecting what he doesn’t want when what he does want is available as an alternative is a motion in the direction of dissatisfaction. In other words, if man were free, he could actually prefer of several alternatives the one that gives him the least satisfaction, which would reverse the direction of his life and make him prefer the impossible.

I have nothing to defend. How the eyes and brain work in generating sight is well enough understood to dismiss the authors claim of light at the eye/instant vision, including modified determinism in relation to world peace, as absurd.

These ideas are never going to be widely accepted, because they have no merit.
All you are doing is defending the conventional definition, refusing to understand that there is another side which says that determinism cannot cause us to do anything we don't want to do (note: but please understand that this doesn't make our will free), which means that we are responsible for what we do because we can't shift what is our responsibility by saying determinism caused our behavior. Nothing can cause us to do anything we don't consent to. That is a fallacy. That was why it was necessary to make this important distinction. I can see that you have no questions or interest, but I can't hold you responsible because I know you are moving in the direction of greater satisfaction, and for you to be satisfied, you have to defend your position, even though the author's clarification can bring about an enduring peace.


It doesn't make sense. It's all over the place. It just looks like a case of making up a set of claims that are intended to appear like a discovery, but unfortunately happen to contradict both the laws of physics - how the world works - and how determinism is defined.
 
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