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“Revolution in Thought: A new look at determinism and free will"

 
As I interpreted it is we don't have free will but we sort of do. Ir is determinism but not entirely.

I'm not as well versed as others here but that sounds like a form of compatibilism.

The problem is use of jargon. Instead of crafting new terms and defining them clearly he co opted exceeding terms without clear definitions.

At one point Pg said all definitions of determinism are the same.


Yeah, like Schroedingers cat, we both.have free will and we do not have free will, where the world is both deterministic and indeterministic, where we both can and cannot select any option in any given instance of decision making.
Where did you conclude that the world is both deterministic and in deterministic from what I’ve written? It couldn’t be further from the truth. I have always said that Schroedinger’s cat does not prove there isn’t a cause. To repeat: Just because we don’t know all the variables leading to whether the cat is found dead or alive doesn’t mean there isn’t a cause. Part of the causal chain in a deterministic system involves making choices, albeit unfree. Your conclusion shows me you haven’t thought through Lessans’ definition carefully because it doesn’t allow for any kind of free will whatsoever. He explained that determinism cannot cause us to do what we don’t want, which is true. We get to make decisions because we consent to those decisions. There is nothing in determinism that tells us we must choose something necessarily, even if that choice is not our preference. That’s Pood’s gripe, which is the elephant in the room and preventing the reconciliation between these two schools of thought, creating the possibility for world peace. But you’ll never get there because you are concluding falsely that his definition sneaks in free will, which it does not.
 
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So now I am preventing world peace? :unsure:

Yet the person you voted for at least twice, by your own admission, has started a fiasco of a war and is threatening to bomb another country “back to the Stone Age.”
 
What the hell! Can't you scroll down to Chapter Three with your cursor? Are you disabled? :oops:

What the hell? Can’t you answer a simple question? Are you demented?
Watch what you say, Pood, or you're on timeout. 🕰️
How is it possible for light to be at the eye instantly even as you concede that it takes light time to get to the eye?
I explained this many times.

:rofl:

The block of space between the object and the eyes is measurable. It doesn't involve time or distance. Whether an object is a football field away or millions of miles away, we will see said object if it MEETS THE REQUIREMENTS FOR SIGHT. Do you know what they are?

I’ll try again and watch her weasel again:

How is it possible for light to be at the eye instantly even as you concede that it takes light time to get to the eye?
 
 
As I interpreted it is we don't have free will but we sort of do. Ir is determinism but not entirely.

I'm not as well versed as others here but that sounds like a form of compatibilism.

The problem is use of jargon. Instead of crafting new terms and defining them clearly he co opted exceeding terms without clear definitions.

At one point Pg said all definitions of determinism are the same.


Yeah, like Schroedingers cat, we both.have free will and we do not have free will, where the world is both deterministic and indeterministic, where we both can and cannot select any option in any given instance of decision making.
Where did you conclude that the world is both deterministic and in deterministic from what I’ve written?


It's implied in the authors tweaked version of determinism. You imply it when you say; ''You are implying that antecedent events CAUSE you to do what you do, when nothing in the past can cause you to do anything since we only have the present...''

The very definition of determinism entails that present conditions are determined by antecedent states of the system.

So what is this tweaked determinism if it contradicts the given terms of determinism, that events evolve according to past states of the system?

How did he define his version of determinism?

I've asked this question several times. It has not been made clear by anything you have said or quoted.


It couldn’t be further from the truth. I have always said that Schroedinger’s cat does not prove there isn’t a cause. To repeat: Just because we don’t know all the variables leading to whether the cat is found dead or alive doesn’t mean there isn’t a cause. Part of the causal chain in a deterministic system involves making choices, albeit unfree. Your conclusion shows me you haven’t thought through Lessans’ definition carefully because it doesn’t allow for any kind of free will whatsoever. He explained that determinism cannot cause us to do what we don’t want, which is true. We get to make decisions because we consent to those decisions. There is nothing in determinism that tells us we must choose something necessarily, even if that choice is not our preference. That’s Pood’s gripe, which is the elephant in the room and preventing the reconciliation between these two schools of thought, creating the possibility for world peace. But you’ll never get there because you are concluding falsely that his definition sneaks in free will, which it does not.

Your implications are all over the place, you appear to be arguing both against determinism and for it, including for and against free will.

I can't make heads or tails of the authors claims. It just doesn't make sense.
 
 
As I interpreted it is we don't have free will but we sort of do. Ir is determinism but not entirely.

I'm not as well versed as others here but that sounds like a form of compatibilism.

The problem is use of jargon. Instead of crafting new terms and defining them clearly he co opted exceeding terms without clear definitions.

At one point Pg said all definitions of determinism are the same.


Yeah, like Schroedingers cat, we both.have free will and we do not have free will, where the world is both deterministic and indeterministic, where we both can and cannot select any option in any given instance of decision making.
Where did you conclude that the world is both deterministic and in deterministic from what I’ve written?


It's implied in the authors tweaked version of determinism. You imply it when you say; ''You are implying that antecedent events CAUSE you to do what you do, when nothing in the past can cause you to do anything since we only have the present...''

The very definition of determinism entails that present conditions are determined by antecedent states of the system.

So what is this tweaked determinism if it contradicts the given terms of determinism, that events evolve according to past states of the system?

How did he define his version of determinism?

I've asked this question several times. It has not been made clear by anything you have said or quoted.


It couldn’t be further from the truth. I have always said that Schroedinger’s cat does not prove there isn’t a cause. To repeat: Just because we don’t know all the variables leading to whether the cat is found dead or alive doesn’t mean there isn’t a cause. Part of the causal chain in a deterministic system involves making choices, albeit unfree. Your conclusion shows me you haven’t thought through Lessans’ definition carefully because it doesn’t allow for any kind of free will whatsoever. He explained that determinism cannot cause us to do what we don’t want, which is true. We get to make decisions because we consent to those decisions. There is nothing in determinism that tells us we must choose something necessarily, even if that choice is not our preference. That’s Pood’s gripe, which is the elephant in the room and preventing the reconciliation between these two schools of thought, creating the possibility for world peace. But you’ll never get there because you are concluding falsely that his definition sneaks in free will, which it does not.

Your implications are all over the place, you appear to be arguing both against determinism and for it, including for and against free will.

I can't make heads or tails of the authors claims. It just doesn't make sense.

I mentioned this very early on in this thread. The author’s claims are in no way consistent with your hard determinism.
 
His definition of determinism is that we are “compelled of our own free will” to “move in the direction of greater satisfaction.”

The very phrase is asinine, since “compulsion” and “free will” are opposites.

It is also obviously idiotic to suggest that past conditions, including our genetics, do not affect our present choices.
 
His definition of determinism is that we are “compelled of our own free will” to “move in the direction of greater satisfaction.”

The very phrase is asinine, since “compulsion” and “free will” are opposites.

It is also obviously idiotic to suggest that past conditions, including our genetics, do not affect our present choices.

It doesn't make sense in any way you look at it.
 
 
As I interpreted it is we don't have free will but we sort of do. Ir is determinism but not entirely.

I'm not as well versed as others here but that sounds like a form of compatibilism.

The problem is use of jargon. Instead of crafting new terms and defining them clearly he co opted exceeding terms without clear definitions.

At one point Pg said all definitions of determinism are the same.


Yeah, like Schroedingers cat, we both.have free will and we do not have free will, where the world is both deterministic and indeterministic, where we both can and cannot select any option in any given instance of decision making.
Where did you conclude that the world is both deterministic and in deterministic from what I’ve written?


It's implied in the authors tweaked version of determinism. You imply it when you say; ''You are implying that antecedent events CAUSE you to do what you do, when nothing in the past can cause you to do anything since we only have the present...''

The very definition of determinism entails that present conditions are determined by antecedent states of the system.

So what is this tweaked determinism if it contradicts the given terms of determinism, that events evolve according to past states of the system?

How did he define his version of determinism?

I've asked this question several times. It has not been made clear by anything you have said or quoted.


It couldn’t be further from the truth. I have always said that Schroedinger’s cat does not prove there isn’t a cause. To repeat: Just because we don’t know all the variables leading to whether the cat is found dead or alive doesn’t mean there isn’t a cause. Part of the causal chain in a deterministic system involves making choices, albeit unfree. Your conclusion shows me you haven’t thought through Lessans’ definition carefully because it doesn’t allow for any kind of free will whatsoever. He explained that determinism cannot cause us to do what we don’t want, which is true. We get to make decisions because we consent to those decisions. There is nothing in determinism that tells us we must choose something necessarily, even if that choice is not our preference. That’s Pood’s gripe, which is the elephant in the room and preventing the reconciliation between these two schools of thought, creating the possibility for world peace. But you’ll never get there because you are concluding falsely that his definition sneaks in free will, which it does not.

Your implications are all over the place, you appear to be arguing both against determinism and for it, including for and against free will.

I can't make heads or tails of the authors claims. It just doesn't make sense.

I mentioned this very early on in this thread. The author’s claims are in no way consistent with your hard determinism.
Call it what you will, Pood. IT IS DETERMINISM. There is no hard, soft, or in between, like the Three Bears. It's one or the other, but you won't accept that just because we get to choose, will is not free. You are so off, I don't think there is any coming back from the cognitive/dissonance that you feel. I know you're trying, but you haven't been able to square your compatibilist beliefs with anything resembling the truth.
 
His definition of determinism is that we are “compelled of our own free will” to “move in the direction of greater satisfaction.”

The very phrase is asinine, since “compulsion” and “free will” are opposites.

It is also obviously idiotic to suggest that past conditions, including our genetics, do not affect our present choices.

It doesn't make sense in any way you look at it.
It makes absolute sense if you understand that we are always moving in the direction of greater satisfaction from the moment we get up in the morning to the time we go to bed. You are confused DBT. You are in a defensive position trying to protect determinism. We don't have free will, and the author demonstrated why, yet you don't trust him. It's a misconception on your part.
---------------------------

In reality, we are carried along on the wings of time or life during every moment of our existence and have no say in this matter whatsoever. We cannot stop ourselves from being born and are compelled to either live out our lives the best we can or commit suicide. Is it possible to disagree with this? However, to prove that what we do of our own free will, of our own desire because we want to do it, is also beyond control, it is necessary to employ mathematical (undeniable) reasoning. Therefore, since it is absolutely impossible for man to be both dead and alive at the same time, and since it is absolutely impossible for a person to desire committing suicide unless dissatisfied with life (regardless of the reason), we are given the ability to demonstrate a revealing and undeniable relation.

Every motion, from the beating heart to the slightest reflex action, from all inner to outer movements of the body, indicates that life is never satisfied or content to remain in one position for always, like an inanimate object, which position shall be termed ‘death.’ I shall now call the present moment of time or life here, for the purpose of clarification, and the next moment coming up there. You are now standing on this present moment of time and space called here, and you are given two alternatives: either live or kill yourself; either move to the next spot called there or remain where you are without moving a hair’s breadth by committing suicide.

“I prefer. . .”

Excuse the interruption, but the very fact that you started to answer me or didn’t commit suicide at that moment makes it obvious that you were not satisfied to stay in one position, which is death or here, and prefer moving off that spot to there, which motion is life. Consequently, the motion of life, which is any motion from here to there, is a movement away from that which dissatisfies; otherwise, had you been satisfied to remain here or where you are, you would never have moved to there. Since the motion of life constantly moves away from here to there, which is an expression of dissatisfaction with the present position, it must obviously move constantly in the direction of greater satisfaction. It should be obvious that our desire to live, to move off the spot called here, is determined by a law over which we have no control, because even if we should kill ourselves, we are choosing what gives us greater satisfaction; otherwise, we would not kill ourselves. The truth of the matter is that at any particular moment, the motion of man is not free, for all life obeys this invariable law. He is constantly compelled by his nature to make choices and decisions and to prefer, of whatever options are available during his lifetime, that which he considers better for himself and his set of circumstances. For example, when he found that a discovery like the electric bulb was for his benefit in comparison to candlelight, he was compelled to prefer it, for his motion, just being alive, has always been in the direction of greater satisfaction, which is the direction life is compelled to take. Consequently, during every moment of man’s progress, he always did what he had to do because he had no choice. Although this demonstration proves that man’s will is not free, your mind may not be accustomed to grasping these type relations, so I will elaborate.

Suppose you wanted very much of two alternatives, A, which we shall designate as something considered evil by society, instead of B, the humdrum of your regular routine. Could you possibly pick B at that particular moment of time if A is preferred as a better alternative when nothing could dissuade you from your decision, not even the threat of the law? What if the clergy, given two alternatives, choose A, which shall now represent something considered good, instead of B, that which is judged evil; would it be possible for them to prefer the latter when the former is available as an alternative? If it is utterly impossible to choose B in this comparison, are they not compelled, by their very nature, to prefer A? And how can they be free when the favorable difference between A and B is the compulsion of their choice and the motion of life in the direction of greater satisfaction? To be free, according to the definition of free will, man would be able to prefer one of two alternatives, either the one he wants or the one he doesn’t want, which is an absolute impossibility because selecting what he doesn’t want when what he does want is available as an alternative is a motion in the direction of dissatisfaction. In other words, if man were free, he could actually prefer of several alternatives the one that gives him the least satisfaction, which would reverse the direction of his life and make him prefer the impossible.
 
After sunrise, the viewable sun is about 2 to 3 degrees above the horizon, depending on latitude and time of year.

If Lessans’ claims about light and sight were correct, when we view the sunrise, the visible sun would be two to three degrees above the horizon, but the whole ground, and any neighbor next to us, would be in darkness. Only after some 8.5 minutes, with the sun 2 to 3 degrees above the horizon, would the ground and our neighbor light up and become visible.

Is this what we see?

No, it is not.

Conclusion about Lessans’ claims:

(n)
 
Pg
always moving in the direction of greater satisfaction


Again that is somewhat meaningless. What is this sanctification?

Hedonism?
Intellectual satisfaction?


To Buddhists sanctification come from cutting attainments to magisterial things. The oppste of Hedonist self indigence stratification.

I think it is better to say we look to reduce pain and effort and increase comfort, unless yoi are into masochism and elf abuse, another form of satisfaction?

Religious ecstasy?

Since he first tribes and civilizations cooperative efforts to producing more food and meeting basic needs with less effort. IOW creating free time.

The result the massive modern industry of entertainment. Free tine to explore archeology and history.

Making money playing pool. Free time to write weird books.
 
Pg

A- light is required for vision, and travels at a finite speed.

B - We see objects instantly in real time.

Do you see that A and B are mutually exclusive?
 
After sunrise, the viewable sun is about 2 to 3 degrees above the horizon, depending on latitude and time of year.

If Lessans’ claims about light and sight were correct, when we view the sunrise, the visible sun would be two to three degrees above the horizon, but the whole ground, and any neighbor next to us, would be in darkness. Only after some 8.5 minutes, with the sun 2 to 3 degrees above the horizon, would the ground and our neighbor light up and become visible.

Is this what we see?

No, it is not.

Conclusion about Lessans’ claims:

(n)
Your conclusion is wrong based on false premises. You cannot use the hypothetical situation he gave regarding why we would see the Sun turned on before we would see each other 8.5 minutes later. Sunlight has been streaming for 4.6 billion years; it's just on the other side of our planet as the Earth turns. You don't have a clue what you're talking about. (n)
 
Pg

A- light is required for vision, and travels at a finite speed.

B - We see objects instantly in real time.

Do you see that A and B are mutually exclusive?
Lessans tried to show the reason we see in real time due to how the brain and eyes function, not light. This changes everything and makes his claim feasible. You keep going back to light, which is why you will never understand why there is no violation of physics.
 
After sunrise, the viewable sun is about 2 to 3 degrees above the horizon, depending on latitude and time of year.

If Lessans’ claims about light and sight were correct, when we view the sunrise, the visible sun would be two to three degrees above the horizon, but the whole ground, and any neighbor next to us, would be in darkness. Only after some 8.5 minutes, with the sun 2 to 3 degrees above the horizon, would the ground and our neighbor light up and become visible.

Is this what we see?

No, it is not.

Conclusion about Lessans’ claims:

(n)
Your conclusion is wrong based on false premises. You cannot use the hypothetical situation he gave regarding why we would see the Sun turned on before we would see each other 8.5 minutes later. Sunlight has been streaming for 4.6 billion years; it's just on the other side of our planet as the Earth turns. You don't have a clue what you're talking about. (n)

Total gibberish, as usual.

The light from the sun is on the other side of our planet as the earth turns? What the hell does that mean? We do not see because of that light unless it is reflected off an object back to us — but you actually deny reflection even takes place!

Peacegirl, how do we see the moon? Can you explain in your own words?
 
Pg

A- light is required for vision, and travels at a finite speed.

B - We see objects instantly in real time.

Do you see that A and B are mutually exclusive?
Lessans tried to show the reason we see in real time due to how the brain and eyes function, not light. This changes everything and makes his claim feasible. You keep going back to light, which is why you will never understand why there is no violation of physics.

The brain and eyes do not function in seeing unless light from a source, or reflected light, reaches our eyes, as even you concede.

Yet again:

How is it possible for light to be at the eye instantly even as you concede that it takes light time to get to the eye?
 
Pg

A- light is required for vision, and travels at a finite speed.

B - We see objects instantly in real time.

Do you see that A and B are mutually exclusive?

She surely does see this obvious logical contradiction (as who couldn’t?), yet she cannot bear to admit it.
 
Pg
always moving in the direction of greater satisfaction


Again that is somewhat meaningless. What is this sanctification?

Hedonism?
Intellectual satisfaction?


To Buddhists sanctification come from cutting attainments to magisterial things. The oppste of Hedonist self indigence stratification.

I think it is better to say we look to reduce pain and effort and increase comfort, unless yoi are into masochism and elf abuse, another form of satisfaction?

Religious ecstasy?

Since he first tribes and civilizations cooperative efforts to producing more food and meeting basic needs with less effort. IOW creating free time.
There is nothing intrinsically bad with having the free time to enjoy one's pursuits as well as the ability to think through better ways to serve civilization by producing more food and meeting basic needs with less effort, as a cooperative.
The result the massive modern industry of entertainment. Free tine to explore archeology and history.

Making money playing pool. Free time to write weird books.
What the fuck are you talking about, Steve? Your mind is going off on strange tangents that have nothing to do with this man. He didn't make money playing pool. In fact, he played for free on most occasions, although he could have taken money from many inexperienced pool players, but he didn't want to cheat anyone, knowing he was much better at the game.
 
Pg

A- light is required for vision, and travels at a finite speed.

B - We see objects instantly in real time.

Do you see that A and B are mutually exclusive?
Lessans tried to show the reason we see in real time due to how the brain and eyes function, not light. This changes everything and makes his claim feasible. You keep going back to light, which is why you will never understand why there is no violation of physics.

The brain and eyes do not function in seeing unless light from a source, or reflected light, reaches our eyes, as even you concede.

Yet again:

How is it possible for light to be at the eye instantly even as you concede that it takes light time to get to the eye?
Because we see the object first, not the light. The light is only a mirror image of what is there, not separate from the object. I need a break from this constant hammering of yours, trying to get me to admit something that I will not admit to, because I don't believe he was wrong. You will have to live with the apparent clash of "ideas" until science either confirms or denies his observations. So far, science has not done either.
 
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