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“Revolution in Thought: A new look at determinism and free will"

Maybe the biggest subjective difference between space and time is that there are three dimensions of space but only one of time. So while we can (more or less) move freely in all spatial directions, we are confined to one time direction.

But what if that were different? What if, for example, there were three temporal directions and only one spatial direction? Or some other dimensional configuration?
The biggest technical difference between space and time is that time has a negative metric signature.

What a universe could be like if time had the same signature as the space dimensions is explored in Greg Egan's excellent hard sci-fi Orthogonal trilogy, which begins with The Clockwork Rocket.

Thanks, I have never read that. I will try to pick it up.

I believe I have already mentioned the astrophysicist Gregory Benford’s novel Timescape, which is about sending messages backward in time with tachyons. It’s quite good, especially because it is not all about technical stuff but has well-defined, relatable characters.
 
Another sci-fi novel I’d recommend is His Master’s Voice by the Polish writer Stanislav Lem, which is about trying to decode an alien signal delivered via neutrinos. Actually I’d recommend anything by Lem, who wrote Solaris, and was Polish like me. :)
 
hjem .. .cough cough

Space-Time

distance as ticks on a meter stick, time as ticks on a clock

Time in seconds measures change

Time and distance are used to quantify that which can be observed.

The universe changes state. We can not go back to a previous state or to a future state of the inverse they do not exist.

To specify a point in space with moving inertial frames requires (x,y,z,t) hence space-time. Note there are also spherical and cylindrical coordinate systems.

Meters, kilograms, seconds, volts, Newtons are dimensions, quantities used to specify parameters.

Time and the rest of the SI dissensions do not have any kind of independent existence as in an 'other dimension of reality' or an independent reality.

People seem to get spooky when it comes to time ....

TARDIS Time And Relative Dimensions Inn Space

Dr Who has been running on PBS at least since the 1980s. Time Lords had a genetic mutation that allowed them to travel in time.

In Dune long term usage of a drug derived from a giant worm causes genetic changes that allows space travel by folding space.
 
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We can not go back to a previous state or to a future state of the inverse they do not exist.
We can't go back, but that doesn't mean the past doesn't exist, any more than the fact that we can't go to Sirius (and may never be able to) means that Sirius doesn't exist*.

I travelled here from 1970 to tell you that it is definitely possible to move forwards in time. In fact, stopping or slowing down seem to be fairly tricky.

I envisage myself moving through time like an asteroid moving through deep space; I move at a constant rate, because I cannot get any purchase on anything, so cannot apply any force to change my rate of progress on the T-axis.




* And interestingly, the Sirius I see when I look up at it tonight is Sirius in the past - on the 14th July 2019, to be precise. I may not be able to travel to the past, but as I can see the past with my own eyes, it seems perverse to say that it doesn't exist.
 
Pg

Pick a few major schools. Send an email to the philosophy department and say your deceased father wrote a philosophy book and you would appreciate it if someone would review it.

Maybe a PHD student. If you can afford offer a fee for a written review.

I have sent questions to schools in the past, most recently the University of Washington climate science deportment a few years ago. I posted responses on the science forum.

The forum here is informal. You have dismissed academia but they are the ones who can give you a revue,
I did try that years ago. I never could actually talk to a professor. I made a concerted effort with a blurb about the reason for my email. Some thought it was spam. I could try it again. It's a good idea. I could also try to reach philosophers interested in this topic on academia.edu. It is just very hard when so many people are competing with their own ideas for them to want to take the time to understand this book, which is a true treasure.

The way the eyes and brain work in generating sight is not a matter of what we believe. Vision is a physical process that requires a physical means and mechanisms to enable the ability to see, eyes with light sensitive cells, rods, cones, lenses, optic nerve to convey signals to the brain, etc.....which does not permit seeing in real time/instant vision. That is impossible. It goes against physics, space/time, relativity....moreover, it's just a bad idea.
 
Pg

As I said I think yiu have a communication problem. You don;t undershorts how you are being viewed by those you to to reach.

I am sure there are dedicated philosophy forums and some more academic then others. Requiring formality and rigor. Certainly beyond me.

As I said you have a lot of competition. Block universe and simulation theory appear to be established. People on the net talk about it.

I have no idea where contemporary mainstream philosophy is at.

Then there is the bible. Buddhism, Hinduism and others.


On top of that, the book just is not very well written. As has been pointed out a lot of it is self congratulatory.

It is not a coherent philosophical work.

You could rewrite it leaving out the pseudoscience and focus on free will versus determinism and how your version of determinism could change the world.

More of a paper not a book. Something clear and digestible.

University teachers have careers to build and maintain. They are competing among peers.
 
I contacted Clark, but he quickly cut me off and said to go to his thread and post there. He had no desire to hear what I had to say. It's so sad because the ego gets in the way people keep realizing that I am a crank with nothing useful (or even coherent) to contribute.
FTFY.

Your problems in getting your ideas accepted are not problems with other people or their egos; They are problems with your ideas, which are observably and obviously not true.
Stating this a thousand more times doesn't help you anymore than the first time.
Not true.
Yes indeed, and observably and obviously so.
Not obviously so.
He wasn't interested in listening to some stranger on the phone telling him about a discovery he never heard of.
Nor would I be.
It might have been a three-minute call.
Then he was a lot more tolerant of random strangers calling him out of the blue than I would be.
His main interest is naturalism, which is based on determinism. You would think he would have been interested when I told him what the discovery was about, but he probably thought I was some quack. He didn't know my backstory, and there was no way he could know in 3 minutes.
 
Actually, his last book was called This is An Urgent Message From a Visitor To Your Planet, because he thought it might go over better by being an alien who came to help the Earthlings.
And he was wrong about that, too, we observe.
Do you think I'm saying he couldn't ever be wrong? No, that's not what I'm saying. I am saying that he wasn't wrong regarding his observations and reasoning that led him to his major discovery, and it IS major if it can do what he says.
If it can do what he says, then:
a) Why hasn't it already done what he says (if it requires widespread acceptance, it's dead on arrival - humanity doesn't work like that
That is true, but that is why he introduces a transitional period once scientists confirm it. Unfortunately, most people will reject anything he says because they believe man's will is free, and they are threatened by determinism because they think it would remove their personal autonomy and their freedom. That is the old definition that is causing so much confusion. The way he has correctly defined determinism does none of those things.
and nor does reality); and
b) Why do you refuse to summarise his observations in a concise and accurate format, so that anyone can reproduce them
I already explained why man's will is not free. Let's start there. The corollary can be reproduced to a limited degree by seeing how much better one's life can be, even while living in the world of free will. This might give them enough trust in the author to want to hear the rest.
He is clearly wrong in some of his assertions, which he appears to use as premises (though it's difficult to say, as everything is buried in long-winded pseudo-dialogues whose purpose seems more to conceal than to reveal).
That is not true, though. I don't know where you got this perception. He wasn't concealing anything. He was doing his best to make things as clear as possible. Yes, the dialogues came from him, but believing this is pseudoscience on account of his writing style is a rush to judgment.
His 'reasoning' simply isn't. It's like you mesn something completely other by the word than what everyone else does.
No, bilby. As I said, when someone is presenting a new concept and no word describes the concept, a person has to use a word that comes closest to what they're trying to convey.
And neither you nor he seem to be using the words 'observation' or 'discovery' in any more orthodox fashion, either.
He was an astute observer. He saw certain things after years and years of reading and thinking that others missed. He never planned on making a discovery; he was led to it. Who knows why someone uncovers a truth that others may have overlooked? He said that this knowledge came from years of reading other philosophers. He didn't make this discovery in a vacuum. Oh, and discovery means finding something new or unexpected.
 
I think you are misinterpreting naturalism.

The better term is causality instead of determinism which has different meanings.

You have to specify exactly which form of determinism you are referriing to.


Nothing happens without a cause, but that does not mean all things are predetermined or predictable from prior events or causes.

We know this from observation and exp[prince. I could give you electrical examples but it would not mean anything to you.

W#ill all kids who grow up in the same environment turn out the sam?

Can kids in bad environments grow up to be a doctor and kids in good environment to be criminals? Yes and yes.

If the great idea is that determinism causally is going to change behavior is refuted by observation.
 
In our present world of free will, it is not difficult to imagine what would happen if suddenly all laws, government, and forms of punishment were withdrawn. Every potential thief and even those who never thought about stealing would have a field day, and nobody would be safe. Sectarian violence would increase, causing extreme chaos and destruction. We can only begin to imagine what an aggressive country would do if there were no other powers to control the desire to spread whatever that country desired to spread. But the moment mankind understands what it means that will is not free, which prevents the very things for which government came into existence, it proves, beyond a shadow of doubt, the reality of God — this amazing mathematical power. Everything was timed so perfectly that you must catch your breath in absolute amazement when you contemplate the magnificence of this mathematical equation, which includes not only the solar system and the exquisite relationship that exists between the planets, but man himself and all the evil and ignorance that ever existed.
In our present world of free will...
OK, I agree for the sake of argument, will is presently free. What can we conclude, starting with this premise?
No bilby, will cannot be free, and there is no pretending that it is. But because no one understood why will is not free and what it could do to help us by extending the corollary, we are stuck using the only thing we can to prevent what we don't want: blame and punishment.

In the beginning of creation, when man was in the early stages of development, he could have destroyed himself were there no forces to control his nature.
Every single part of this is incorrect. The beginning of creation was billions of years before any man developed at all. And the idea that authoritarian control was necessary for the survival of early humans is a bald assertion that is almost certainly untrue.
Religion came to the rescue by helping explain the reason for such evil in the world.
Religion explains nothing, and isn't a monobloc anyway - there are myriad religions, all wrong, all valuable only as ways to manipulate other people into acting against their own interests.
It gave those who had faith a sense of comfort, hope, and the fortitude to go on living.
There is no evidence whatsoever for this claim.
Despite everything, it was a bright light in the story of civilization.
There is no evidence whatsoever for this claim, either.
However, to reach this stage of development so God could reveal Himself to all mankind by performing this deliverance from evil,
This not only hasn't occurred, and not only cannot occur, but also contradicts your claim that he only uses God as a metaphor.
it was absolutely necessary to get man to believe his will was free,
There is no evidence whatsoever for this claim.
and he believed in this theory, whether consciously or unconsciously.
There is no evidence whatsoever for this claim.
It became a dogma, a dogmatic doctrine of all religion, was the cornerstone of all civilization, and the only reason man was able to develop.
There is no evidence whatsoever for this claim.
The belief in free will was compelled to come about as a corollary of evil,
There is no evidence whatsoever for this claim.
for not only was it impossible to hold God responsible for man’s deliberate crimes, but primarily because it was impossible for man to solve his problems without blame and punishment, which required the justification of this belief in order to absolve his conscience. Therefore, it was assumed that man did not have to do what he did because he was endowed with a special faculty that allowed him to choose between good and evil.

In other words, if you were called upon to pass judgment on someone by sentencing him to death, could you do it if you knew his will was not free?
This is the logical fallacy of begging the question. He has not established that man's will is not free.

It also entails a contradiction. If man's will is not free, then the question "could you do it?" ceases to be meaningful.
To punish him in any way, you would have to believe that he was free to choose another alternative than the one for which he was being judged;
To pass judgement in any way, you would have to have free will yourself. If you don't, you are not judging anything, you are just going through the motions.
that he was not compelled by laws over which he had no control. Man was given no choice but to think this way, and that is why our civilization developed the principle of ‘an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth’ and why my discovery was never found.
These unsupported assertions are becoming tiresome. He clearly lacks the imagination to grasp that his readers might not already agree with him.
No one could ever get beyond this point because if man’s will is not free, it becomes absolutely impossible to hold him responsible for anything he does.
No, it doesn't. It might become unfair, or unjust, or unreasonable - but it's certainly still possible. Unfairness, injustice, and unreasonableness are commonplace and banal; We see them literally everywhere.
Well, is it any wonder the solution was never found if it lies beyond this point? How is it possible not to blame people for committing murder, rape, for stealing and the wholesale slaughter of millions?
Quite easily. Billions of people do exactly that every single day. Usually religion, tribalism, patriotism, or sycophancy are directly involved.
Does this mean that we are supposed to condone these evils, and wouldn’t man become even less responsible if there were no laws of punishment to control his nature?
It's hard to see how man could become any less responsible. We are ignoble selfish apes, most of whom lack the intelligence and imagination to avoid stuffing up our own environment, in pursuit of short term benefits.
Doesn’t our history show that if something is desired badly enough, he will go to any lengths to satisfy himself, even pounce down on other nations with talons or tons of steel?
Yup.
What is it that prevents the poor from walking into stores and taking what they need if not the fear of punishment?
Locks. Security guards. Conditioning. Probably a bunch of others. If he's going to ask rhetorical questions effectively, he's going to need to be less naïve (or to only adress audiences that are even more unimaginative than he clearly is).
The belief that will is not free strikes at the very heart of our present civilization.
There is no evidence whatsoever for this claim.
Right at this point lies the crux of a problem so difficult of solution that it has kept free will in power since time immemorial.
Yet some guy who can't imagine a locked door is going to solve it for us?
Although it has had a very long reign in the history of civilization, it is now time to put it to rest, once and for all, by first demonstrating that this theory can never be proven true.
No theory can ever be proven true. All he is doing here is showing that he does't know what a theory is, nor proof, nor truth.
...will is not free,
CONTRADICTION DETECTED - LOGIC FAIL - WRITER CANNOT BE CORRECT

Oh well. That wraps up the thread then.
No contradiction at all.
Sure there is. He declares both that will is not free, and that we currently live in an age of free will.
There is no contradiction there. We live in an age of free will, meaning that the belief that a person could have done otherwise is paramount, because it is the very foundation of the justice system that is used to determine guilt or innocence.
Even if we take the charitable approach of assuming that when he says "In our present world of free will...", he doesn't actually mean what he plainly says, and is instead employing clumsy rhetoric to say something like "The world is presently almost universally mistaken in our belief that will is free", then it follows that this situation cannot be changed, unless he is wrong and we have the freedom to will it to change.
That is not true. We don't have the free will to change it, but we do have the ability to reason and change our views going forward.
Not that such charity is deserved; If any of this were actually useful and important, he is derelict in his duty to mankind if he isn't clear and accurate in communicating it.
Come on, bilby, give him a little bit of slack. You are too harsh on him because you still can't believe that this is a genuine discovery.
 
In our present world of free will, it is not difficult to imagine what would happen if suddenly all laws, government, and forms of punishment were withdrawn. Every potential thief and even those who never thought about stealing would have a field day, and nobody would be safe. Sectarian violence would increase, causing extreme chaos and destruction. We can only begin to imagine what an aggressive country would do if there were no other powers to control the desire to spread whatever that country desired to spread. But the moment mankind understands what it means that will is not free, which prevents the very things for which government came into existence, it proves, beyond a shadow of doubt, the reality of God — this amazing mathematical power. Everything was timed so perfectly that you must catch your breath in absolute amazement when you contemplate the magnificence of this mathematical equation, which includes not only the solar system and the exquisite relationship that exists between the planets, but man himself and all the evil and ignorance that ever existed.
In our present world of free will...
OK, I agree for the sake of argument, will is presently free. What can we conclude, starting with this premise?
No bilby, will cannot be free, and there is no pretending that it is. But because no one understood why will is not free and what it could do to help us by extending the corollary, we are stuck using the only thing we can to prevent what we don't want: blame and punishment.

In the beginning of creation, when man was in the early stages of development, he could have destroyed himself were there no forces to control his nature.
Every single part of this is incorrect. The beginning of creation was billions of years before any man developed at all. And the idea that authoritarian control was necessary for the survival of early humans is a bald assertion that is almost certainly untrue.
Religion came to the rescue by helping explain the reason for such evil in the world.
Religion explains nothing, and isn't a monobloc anyway - there are myriad religions, all wrong, all valuable only as ways to manipulate other people into acting against their own interests.
It gave those who had faith a sense of comfort, hope, and the fortitude to go on living.
There is no evidence whatsoever for this claim.
Despite everything, it was a bright light in the story of civilization.
There is no evidence whatsoever for this claim, either.
However, to reach this stage of development so God could reveal Himself to all mankind by performing this deliverance from evil,
This not only hasn't occurred, and not only cannot occur, but also contradicts your claim that he only uses God as a metaphor.
it was absolutely necessary to get man to believe his will was free,
There is no evidence whatsoever for this claim.
and he believed in this theory, whether consciously or unconsciously.
There is no evidence whatsoever for this claim.
It became a dogma, a dogmatic doctrine of all religion, was the cornerstone of all civilization, and the only reason man was able to develop.
There is no evidence whatsoever for this claim.
The belief in free will was compelled to come about as a corollary of evil,
There is no evidence whatsoever for this claim.
for not only was it impossible to hold God responsible for man’s deliberate crimes, but primarily because it was impossible for man to solve his problems without blame and punishment, which required the justification of this belief in order to absolve his conscience. Therefore, it was assumed that man did not have to do what he did because he was endowed with a special faculty that allowed him to choose between good and evil.

In other words, if you were called upon to pass judgment on someone by sentencing him to death, could you do it if you knew his will was not free?
This is the logical fallacy of begging the question. He has not established that man's will is not free.

It also entails a contradiction. If man's will is not free, then the question "could you do it?" ceases to be meaningful.
To punish him in any way, you would have to believe that he was free to choose another alternative than the one for which he was being judged;
To pass judgement in any way, you would have to have free will yourself. If you don't, you are not judging anything, you are just going through the motions.
that he was not compelled by laws over which he had no control. Man was given no choice but to think this way, and that is why our civilization developed the principle of ‘an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth’ and why my discovery was never found.
These unsupported assertions are becoming tiresome. He clearly lacks the imagination to grasp that his readers might not already agree with him.
No one could ever get beyond this point because if man’s will is not free, it becomes absolutely impossible to hold him responsible for anything he does.
No, it doesn't. It might become unfair, or unjust, or unreasonable - but it's certainly still possible. Unfairness, injustice, and unreasonableness are commonplace and banal; We see them literally everywhere.
Well, is it any wonder the solution was never found if it lies beyond this point? How is it possible not to blame people for committing murder, rape, for stealing and the wholesale slaughter of millions?
Quite easily. Billions of people do exactly that every single day. Usually religion, tribalism, patriotism, or sycophancy are directly involved.
Does this mean that we are supposed to condone these evils, and wouldn’t man become even less responsible if there were no laws of punishment to control his nature?
It's hard to see how man could become any less responsible. We are ignoble selfish apes, most of whom lack the intelligence and imagination to avoid stuffing up our own environment, in pursuit of short term benefits.
Doesn’t our history show that if something is desired badly enough, he will go to any lengths to satisfy himself, even pounce down on other nations with talons or tons of steel?
Yup.
What is it that prevents the poor from walking into stores and taking what they need if not the fear of punishment?
Locks. Security guards. Conditioning. Probably a bunch of others. If he's going to ask rhetorical questions effectively, he's going to need to be less naïve (or to only adress audiences that are even more unimaginative than he clearly is).
The belief that will is not free strikes at the very heart of our present civilization.
There is no evidence whatsoever for this claim.
Right at this point lies the crux of a problem so difficult of solution that it has kept free will in power since time immemorial.
Yet some guy who can't imagine a locked door is going to solve it for us?
Although it has had a very long reign in the history of civilization, it is now time to put it to rest, once and for all, by first demonstrating that this theory can never be proven true.
No theory can ever be proven true. All he is doing here is showing that he does't know what a theory is, nor proof, nor truth.
...will is not free,
CONTRADICTION DETECTED - LOGIC FAIL - WRITER CANNOT BE CORRECT

Oh well. That wraps up the thread then.
No contradiction at all.
Sure there is. He declares both that will is not free, and that we currently live in an age of free will.
There is no contradiction there. We live in an age of free will, meaning that the belief that a person could have done otherwise is paramount, because it is the very foundation of the justice system that is used to determine guilt or innocence.
Even if we take the charitable approach of assuming that when he says "In our present world of free will...", he doesn't actually mean what he plainly says, and is instead employing clumsy rhetoric to say something like "The world is presently almost universally mistaken in our belief that will is free", then it follows that this situation cannot be changed, unless he is wrong and we have the freedom to will it to change.
That is not true. We don't have the free will to change it, but we do have the ability to reason and change our views going forward.
Not that such charity is deserved; If any of this were actually useful and important, he is derelict in his duty to mankind if he isn't clear and accurate in communicating it.
Come on, bilby, give him a little bit of slack. You are too harsh on him because you still can't believe that this is a genuine discovery.
I want to add that saying: "In the beginning of creation," were my words, not his. I actually took it out (thanks to you) and wrote: When man was in the early stages of development.

Maybe you could be my editor. ;)

I want to add that this one sentence does not ruin or take away from his claim. You are looking at the trees without seeing the forest. Try not to scrutinize minutiae to give yourself reasons to throw his work out. In doing so, you are actually getting in the way of your own efforts to determine truth from fiction.
 
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@peacegirl, we do not see in real time. We cannot see in real time. It violates every principle of physics, starting with Einstein’s relativity, which could never have been formulated if we saw in real time.
Einstein may be wrong. OMG, I am being blasphemous. Sorry! :(
In fact, nothing could have been formulated if real-time seeing were true, since nobody would be around to formulate anything. If instant seeing were correct, the entire night sky would be white, and the surface temperature of the earth would be the same as the sun.
What the hell are you talking about? Everything that exists in the universe comprises of space between things. It would not be all white.
This has also been explained to you. We cannot see a vast, even infinite, number of stars because their light has not gotten to us yet, and most of the light will never get to us because of the expansion of the universe.
That is true, and that is why we can't see stars that are too far away. There is no light, not even a glimmer of light, for the light to be at the telescope for anything to be magnified.
Actually, this isn’t quite true. A lot of starlight is red-shifted out of the visible spectrum because of universal expansion. But it’s close enough.
And that is one way to give us a clue that the star exists, but without the actual ability to see it.
Stand outside just before dawn. Take a neighbor with you.

When the sun rises, what do you see?

If your writer were correct, we would see the sun rising for 8,5 minutes before the ground or the neighbor were lighted up. But that is not what we see. You can test this for yourself.
I have answered you already. We would see each other because dawn would appear before the Sun would smile on us as it comes over the horizon . You keep bringing up a hypothetical example that Lessans used to help people to see why we would see in real time, but it has nothing to do with morning coming into view as the Earth rotates to allow us to see our neighbors.
 
We can not go back to a previous state or to a future state of the inverse they do not exist.
We can't go back, but that doesn't mean the past doesn't exist, any more than the fact that we can't go to Sirius (and may never be able to) means that Sirius doesn't exist*.

I travelled here from 1970 to tell you that it is definitely possible to move forwards in time. In fact, stopping or slowing down seem to be fairly tricky.

I envisage myself moving through time like an asteroid moving through deep space; I move at a constant rate, because I cannot get any purchase on anything, so cannot apply any force to change my rate of progress on the T-axis.




* And interestingly, the Sirius I see when I look up at it tonight is Sirius in the past - on the 14th July 2019, to be precise. I may not be able to travel to the past, but as I can see the past with my own eyes, it seems perverse to say that it doesn't exist.

At FF, we explained to her that you could travel the far future in an arbitrarily short period of time as measured by the ship clock.

You could, for example, by accelerating to a certain fraction of c, age one year, but return to the earth as it is 50,000 years in the future.

Travel to the past? Closed timelike curves, if they exist.

These examples alone make it clear that the past and future exist along with the present. There is nothing privileged about the “present” — it’s an indexical, just like “here.”

She was outraged and incredulous when these things were explained to her at FF, and wholly and irrationally rejected them.
 
Pg

Can you talk less about how great your father was and talk more about how it is supposed to work getting rid of war?

If it is a guessing game, ok.

Is it animal, vegetable. or mineral?
Is it bigger than a breadbox?
 
In our present world of free will, it is not difficult to imagine what would happen if suddenly all laws, government, and forms of punishment were withdrawn. Every potential thief and even those who never thought about stealing would have a field day, and nobody would be safe. Sectarian violence would increase, causing extreme chaos and destruction. We can only begin to imagine what an aggressive country would do if there were no other powers to control the desire to spread whatever that country desired to spread. But the moment mankind understands what it means that will is not free, which prevents the very things for which government came into existence, it proves, beyond a shadow of doubt, the reality of God — this amazing mathematical power. Everything was timed so perfectly that you must catch your breath in absolute amazement when you contemplate the magnificence of this mathematical equation, which includes not only the solar system and the exquisite relationship that exists between the planets, but man himself and all the evil and ignorance that ever existed.
In our present world of free will...
OK, I agree for the sake of argument, will is presently free. What can we conclude, starting with this premise?
No bilby, will cannot be free, and there is no pretending that it is. But because no one understood why will is not free and what it could do to help us by extending the corollary, we are stuck using the only thing we can to prevent what we don't want: blame and punishment.

In the beginning of creation, when man was in the early stages of development, he could have destroyed himself were there no forces to control his nature.
Every single part of this is incorrect. The beginning of creation was billions of years before any man developed at all. And the idea that authoritarian control was necessary for the survival of early humans is a bald assertion that is almost certainly untrue.
Religion came to the rescue by helping explain the reason for such evil in the world.
Religion explains nothing, and isn't a monobloc anyway - there are myriad religions, all wrong, all valuable only as ways to manipulate other people into acting against their own interests.
I'm not saying that religion was correct. It was a way to make sense of the world and to find reasons for the evil that gave God a free pass. That is how free will came to be, because it wasn't God who was responsible for evil; it was humans who had the free will not to cause evil.
It gave those who had faith a sense of comfort, hope, and the fortitude to go on living.
There is no evidence whatsoever for this claim.
Many people found comfort in religion and still do. This isn't even worth arguing about.
Despite everything, it was a bright light in the story of civilization.
There is no evidence whatsoever for this claim, either.
It was, because people needed something to believe in. They wanted to trust in something, and religion filled that gap.
However, to reach this stage of development so God could reveal Himself to all mankind by performing this deliverance from evil,
This not only hasn't occurred, and not only cannot occur, but also contradicts your claim that he only uses God as a metaphor.
No, God is a metaphor for the laws that govern us. That's all he meant. This discovery has nothing to do with religion.


it was absolutely necessary to get man to believe his will was free,
There is no evidence whatsoever for this claim.
and he believed in this theory, whether consciously or unconsciously.
There is no evidence whatsoever for this claim.
Yes there is. He read history. He knew how many civilizations came and went.

Religion came to the rescue by helping explain the reason for such evil in the world. It gave those who had faith a sense of comfort, hope, and the fortitude to go on living. Despite everything, it was a bright light in the story of civilization. However, to reach this stage of development so God could reveal Himself to all mankind by performing this deliverance from evil, it was absolutely necessary to get man to believe his will was free, and he believed in this theory, whether consciously or unconsciously. It became a dogma, a dogmatic doctrine of all religion, was the cornerstone of all civilization, and the only reason man was able to develop.

The belief in free will was compelled to come about as a corollary of evil, for not only was it impossible to hold God responsible for man’s deliberate crimes, but primarily because it was impossible for man to solve his problems without blame and punishment, which required the justification of this belief in order to absolve his conscience. Therefore, it was assumed that man did not have to do what he did because he was endowed with a special faculty that allowed him to choose between good and evil. In other words, if you were called upon to pass judgment on someone by sentencing him to death, could you do it if you knew his will was not free? To punish him in any way, you would have to believe that he was free to choose another alternative than the one for which he was being judged; that he was not compelled by laws over which he had no control. Man was given no choice but to think this way, and that is why our civilization developed the principle of ‘an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth’ and why my discovery was never found. No one could ever get beyond this point because if man’s will is not free, it becomes absolutely impossible to hold him responsible for anything he does. Well, is it any wonder the solution was never found if it lies beyond this point?
It became a dogma, a dogmatic doctrine of all religion, was the cornerstone of all civilization, and the only reason man was able to develop.
There is no evidence whatsoever for this claim.
The belief in free will was compelled to come about as a corollary of evil,
There is no evidence whatsoever for this claim.
for not only was it impossible to hold God responsible for man’s deliberate crimes, but primarily because it was impossible for man to solve his problems without blame and punishment, which required the justification of this belief in order to absolve his conscience. Therefore, it was assumed that man did not have to do what he did because he was endowed with a special faculty that allowed him to choose between good and evil.

In other words, if you were called upon to pass judgment on someone by sentencing him to death, could you do it if you knew his will was not free?
This is the logical fallacy of begging the question. He has not established that man's will is not free.
That excerpt was not meant to establish that man's will is not free. It was to explain why man had to believe man didn't have to choose evil if he didn't want to, and if he did, it justified doing whatever was necessary to punish him, so as not to do it again.
It also entails a contradiction. If man's will is not free, then the question "could you do it?" ceases to be meaningful.
No it is not a contradiction. He questioned his friend to see if, under the changed environmental conditions, he would be able to hurt someone by taking advantage. The answer is no.
To punish him in any way, you would have to believe that he was free to choose another alternative than the one for which he was being judged;
To pass judgement in any way, you would have to have free will yourself. If you don't, you are not judging anything, you are just going through the motions.
No bilby. You are getting confused due to the present definition of determinism. I hope you will want to understand a more accurate definition of determinism, or you will fight me when there is nothing to fight.
that he was not compelled by laws over which he had no control. Man was given no choice but to think this way, and that is why our civilization developed the principle of ‘an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth’ and why my discovery was never found.
These unsupported assertions are becoming tiresome. He clearly lacks the imagination to grasp that his readers might not already agree with him.
So what are you peeved about? If that is true, he was just confirming those facts, just in case someone didn't know. Are you going to condemn him to death for his "misstep" like Socrates?
No one could ever get beyond this point because if man’s will is not free, it becomes absolutely impossible to hold him responsible for anything he does.
No, it doesn't. It might become unfair, or unjust, or unreasonable - but it's certainly still possible. Unfairness, injustice, and unreasonableness are commonplace and banal; We see them literally everywhere.
That may be true, but there is a problem when it comes to the justice system. They have to believe the person who did a crime could have not to have done it, or they couldn't justify dishing out punishment. If someone had a brain tumor and committed a crime, they would have accounted for this and would not have dished out the same kind of punishment, thus proving that the belief in free will plays an important part in how we judge the actions of others.
Well, is it any wonder the solution was never found if it lies beyond this point? How is it possible not to blame people for committing murder, rape, for stealing and the wholesale slaughter of millions?
Quite easily. Billions of people do exactly that every single day. Usually religion, tribalism, patriotism, or sycophancy are directly involved.
How can people not strike back against rape and murder? It's a natural reaction.
Does this mean that we are supposed to condone these evils, and wouldn’t man become even less responsible if there were no laws of punishment to control his nature?
It's hard to see how man could become any less responsible. We are ignoble selfish apes, most of whom lack the intelligence and imagination to avoid stuffing up our own environment, in pursuit of short term benefits.
I understand, but there is a way to prevent this selfishness.
Doesn’t our history show that if something is desired badly enough, he will go to any lengths to satisfy himself, even pounce down on other nations with talons or tons of steel?
Yup.
What is it that prevents the poor from walking into stores and taking what they need if not the fear of punishment?
Locks. Security guards. Conditioning. Probably a bunch of others. If he's going to ask rhetorical questions effectively, he's going to need to be less naïve (or to only adress audiences that are even more unimaginative than he clearly is).
All he was imparting is that fear of punishment can be a deterrent, along with locks and security guards, and the knowledge that if they are caught, they will have to deal with the consequences.
The belief that will is not free strikes at the very heart of our present civilization.
There is no evidence whatsoever for this claim.
It does strike at the heart of our present civilization because the justice and penal system base their philosophy on the belief that a person could have done otherwise. He didn't have to do what he did, and therefore, he deserves what he gets. That is the entire foundation of how our justice system works, or they could not lock someone up and throw away the key.
Right at this point lies the crux of a problem so difficult of solution that it has kept free will in power since time immemorial.
Yet some guy who can't imagine a locked door is going to solve it for us?
Please stop, bilby. Locked doors is what we do now. How is it working?
Although it has had a very long reign in the history of civilization, it is now time to put it to rest, once and for all, by first demonstrating that this theory can never be proven true.
No theory can ever be proven true. All he is doing here is showing that he does't know what a theory is, nor proof, nor truth.
It's not a theory. He knew the difference between opinion, theory, and fact.
...will is not free,
CONTRADICTION DETECTED - LOGIC FAIL - WRITER CANNOT BE CORRECT

Oh well. That wraps up the thread then.
No contradiction at all.
Sure there is. He declares both that will is not free, and that we currently live in an age of free will.
I went over this already. We don't have free will, but there was no way to solve the problem of those who hurt us, so we had to believe this person had the free will to do otherwise. That's why compatiblists believe what they do. It's understandable, but he took it further to show that, when we extend the corollary, it actually prevents the very thing punishment could never achieve.
Even if we take the charitable approach of assuming that when he says "In our present world of free will...", he doesn't actually mean what he plainly says, and is instead employing clumsy rhetoric to say something like "The world is presently almost universally mistaken in our belief that will is free", then it follows that this situation cannot be changed, unless he is wrong and we have the freedom to will it to change.
But it can be changed. Once again, you are using a false definition of what determinism means. We can learn new ways of thinking. Determinism doesn't take this attribute away from us.
Not that such charity is deserved; If any of this were actually useful and important, he is derelict in his duty to mankind if he isn't clear and accurate in communicating it.
I think you may change your mind once you see how difficult this knowledge was to convey. Give him a break, okay? Ten-four! ;)
 
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'how difficult this knowledge was to convey. '

So he did it by his own volition and free will, no one forced him to do it? Or was he the e result of a series of casualties leading to what he did and he had no choice?

At any point could he have children not to do it? If not then he gets no credit for anything.

If there is sensibility for actions then there is no credit for actions.

A lot of words but still just speculative philosophy.
 
In our present world of free will, it is not difficult to imagine what would happen if suddenly all laws, government, and forms of punishment were withdrawn. Every potential thief and even those who never thought about stealing would have a field day, and nobody would be safe. Sectarian violence would increase, causing extreme chaos and destruction. We can only begin to imagine what an aggressive country would do if there were no other powers to control the desire to spread whatever that country desired to spread. But the moment mankind understands what it means that will is not free, which prevents the very things for which government came into existence, it proves, beyond a shadow of doubt, the reality of God — this amazing mathematical power. Everything was timed so perfectly that you must catch your breath in absolute amazement when you contemplate the magnificence of this mathematical equation, which includes not only the solar system and the exquisite relationship that exists between the planets, but man himself and all the evil and ignorance that ever existed.
In our present world of free will...
OK, I agree for the sake of argument, will is presently free. What can we conclude, starting with this premise?
No bilby, will cannot be free, and there is no pretending that it is. But because no one understood why will is not free and what it could do to help us by extending the corollary, we are stuck using the only thing we can to prevent what we don't want: blame and punishment.

In the beginning of creation, when man was in the early stages of development, he could have destroyed himself were there no forces to control his nature.
Every single part of this is incorrect. The beginning of creation was billions of years before any man developed at all. And the idea that authoritarian control was necessary for the survival of early humans is a bald assertion that is almost certainly untrue.
Religion came to the rescue by helping explain the reason for such evil in the world.
Religion explains nothing, and isn't a monobloc anyway - there are myriad religions, all wrong, all valuable only as ways to manipulate other people into acting against their own interests.
It gave those who had faith a sense of comfort, hope, and the fortitude to go on living.
There is no evidence whatsoever for this claim.
Despite everything, it was a bright light in the story of civilization.
There is no evidence whatsoever for this claim, either.
However, to reach this stage of development so God could reveal Himself to all mankind by performing this deliverance from evil,
This not only hasn't occurred, and not only cannot occur, but also contradicts your claim that he only uses God as a metaphor.
it was absolutely necessary to get man to believe his will was free,
There is no evidence whatsoever for this claim.
and he believed in this theory, whether consciously or unconsciously.
There is no evidence whatsoever for this claim.
It became a dogma, a dogmatic doctrine of all religion, was the cornerstone of all civilization, and the only reason man was able to develop.
There is no evidence whatsoever for this claim.
The belief in free will was compelled to come about as a corollary of evil,
There is no evidence whatsoever for this claim.
for not only was it impossible to hold God responsible for man’s deliberate crimes, but primarily because it was impossible for man to solve his problems without blame and punishment, which required the justification of this belief in order to absolve his conscience. Therefore, it was assumed that man did not have to do what he did because he was endowed with a special faculty that allowed him to choose between good and evil.

In other words, if you were called upon to pass judgment on someone by sentencing him to death, could you do it if you knew his will was not free?
This is the logical fallacy of begging the question. He has not established that man's will is not free.

It also entails a contradiction. If man's will is not free, then the question "could you do it?" ceases to be meaningful.
To punish him in any way, you would have to believe that he was free to choose another alternative than the one for which he was being judged;
To pass judgement in any way, you would have to have free will yourself. If you don't, you are not judging anything, you are just going through the motions.
that he was not compelled by laws over which he had no control. Man was given no choice but to think this way, and that is why our civilization developed the principle of ‘an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth’ and why my discovery was never found.
These unsupported assertions are becoming tiresome. He clearly lacks the imagination to grasp that his readers might not already agree with him.
No one could ever get beyond this point because if man’s will is not free, it becomes absolutely impossible to hold him responsible for anything he does.
No, it doesn't. It might become unfair, or unjust, or unreasonable - but it's certainly still possible. Unfairness, injustice, and unreasonableness are commonplace and banal; We see them literally everywhere.
Well, is it any wonder the solution was never found if it lies beyond this point? How is it possible not to blame people for committing murder, rape, for stealing and the wholesale slaughter of millions?
Quite easily. Billions of people do exactly that every single day. Usually religion, tribalism, patriotism, or sycophancy are directly involved.
Does this mean that we are supposed to condone these evils, and wouldn’t man become even less responsible if there were no laws of punishment to control his nature?
It's hard to see how man could become any less responsible. We are ignoble selfish apes, most of whom lack the intelligence and imagination to avoid stuffing up our own environment, in pursuit of short term benefits.
Doesn’t our history show that if something is desired badly enough, he will go to any lengths to satisfy himself, even pounce down on other nations with talons or tons of steel?
Yup.
What is it that prevents the poor from walking into stores and taking what they need if not the fear of punishment?
Locks. Security guards. Conditioning. Probably a bunch of others. If he's going to ask rhetorical questions effectively, he's going to need to be less naïve (or to only adress audiences that are even more unimaginative than he clearly is).
The belief that will is not free strikes at the very heart of our present civilization.
There is no evidence whatsoever for this claim.
Right at this point lies the crux of a problem so difficult of solution that it has kept free will in power since time immemorial.
Yet some guy who can't imagine a locked door is going to solve it for us?
Although it has had a very long reign in the history of civilization, it is now time to put it to rest, once and for all, by first demonstrating that this theory can never be proven true.
No theory can ever be proven true. All he is doing here is showing that he does't know what a theory is, nor proof, nor truth.
...will is not free,
CONTRADICTION DETECTED - LOGIC FAIL - WRITER CANNOT BE CORRECT

Oh well. That wraps up the thread then.
No contradiction at all.
Sure there is. He declares both that will is not free, and that we currently live in an age of free will.

Even if we take the charitable approach of assuming that when he says "In our present world of free will...", he doesn't actually mean what he plainly says, and is instead employing clumsy rhetoric to say something like "The world is presently almost universally mistaken in our belief that will is free", then it follows that this situation cannot be changed, unless he is wrong and we have the freedom to will it to change.

Not that such charity is deserved; If any of this were actually useful and important, he is derelict in his duty to mankind if he isn't clear and accurate in communicating it.
I want to add here that having the free will to change (given a different set of conditions) does not mean we have the freedom of the will to choose otherwise, once a choice has been made. Furthermore, the fact that we have no free will does not mean we can't make a different choice the next time a similar situation presents itself, due to new information that has a bearing on our next choice. My saying, "I did this of my own free will, only means "I did this because I wanted to," which determinism does not strip us of. When someone says he did something of his own free will, it only means that nothing forced him to do what he did against his will. It's a colloquial expression that the author uses throughout the book, but in no way does it mean that will is free. He clarifies this. THERE IS NO DETECTED CONTRADICTION. I hope you get this soon so we can move forward. 🙏

Determinism was faced with an almost impossible task because it assumed that heredity and environment caused man to choose evil, and the proponents of free will believed the opposite, that man was not caused or compelled; he did it of his own accord; he wanted to do it; he didn’t have to. The term ‘free will’ contains an assumption or fallacy, for it implies that if man is not caused or compelled to do anything against his will, it must be preferred of his own free will. This is one of those logical, not mathematical, conclusions. The expression ‘I did it of my own free will’ is perfectly correct when it is understood to mean ‘I did it because I wanted to; nothing compelled or caused me to do it since I could have acted otherwise had I desired.’ This expression was necessarily misinterpreted due to the general ignorance that prevailed, for although it is correct in the sense that a person did something because they wanted to, this in no way indicates that their will is free. In fact, I shall use the expression ‘of my own free will’ frequently myself, which only means ‘of my own desire.’ Are you beginning to see how words have deceived everyone?”

“You must be kidding! Here you are in the process of demonstrating why the will of man is not free, and in the same breath you tell me you’re doing this of your own free will.”


“This is clarified somewhat when you understand that man is free to choose what he prefers, what he desires, what he wants, what he considers better for himself and his family. But the moment he prefers or desires anything is an indication that he is compelled to this action because of some dissatisfaction, which is the natural compulsion of his nature. Because of this misinterpretation of the expression ‘man’s will is free,’ great confusion continues to exist in any discussion surrounding this issue, for although it is true that man has to make choices, he must always prefer that which he considers good, not evil, for himself when the former is offered as an alternative. The words ‘cause’ and ‘compel’ are the perception of an improper or fallacious relation because in order to be developed and have meaning it was absolutely necessary that the expression ‘free will’ be born as their opposite, as tall gives meaning to short. But these words do not describe reality unless interpreted properly.
 
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I want to add here that having the free will to change (which we have given a different set of conditions) does not mean we have freedom of the will to do otherwise, once a choice has been made. We could not have done differently, but that does not mean we cannot do differently the next time a similar situation presents itself. Determinism doesn't stop us from saying, "I did this of my own free will, which only means 'I did this because I wanted to." Nothing made me do it against my will. It's a colloquial expression that he uses throughout the book but it does not mean will is free. THERE IS NO DETECTED CONTRADICTION. I hope you get this soon so we can move forward. 🙏

As pointed out, this is just basically compatibilism, except for the part in which it is claimed that we could not have done otherwise after the fact, which is a modal fallacy. So your author was basically a compatiblist without knowing it.
 
They reasoned that since it takes longer for the sound from an airplane to reach us when 15,000 feet away than when 5000; and since it takes longer for light to reach us the farther it is away when starting its journey, light and sound must function alike in other respects
Literally nobody reasoned this. "They" are a figment of his imagination, and this is a classic strawman logical fallacy.
That has been the logic that gave people the belief that the eyes were a sense organ like the other true sense organs.
No, it's not.
It made sense,
No, it doesn't.
but it turned out to be 100% wrong! 🫤
Yes, it is. That's why:
Literally nobody reasoned this. "They" are a figment of his imagination, and this is a classic strawman logical fallacy.
If you want to understand why someone believes something, and what reasoning they used to get to that belief, then you need to ask them.

If you just invent a story about them that you can readily discredit, then you are not only engaging in the strawman fallacy, but also being extremely insulting.
If I invented a story about how you got to a certain belief, by all means correct me. I never intended to insult you, but remember, it works both ways.
 
I want to add here that having the free will to change (which we have given a different set of conditions) does not mean we have freedom of the will to do otherwise, once a choice has been made. We could not have done differently, but that does not mean we cannot do differently the next time a similar situation presents itself. Determinism doesn't stop us from saying, "I did this of my own free will, which only means 'I did this because I wanted to." Nothing made me do it against my will. It's a colloquial expression that he uses throughout the book but it does not mean will is free. THERE IS NO DETECTED CONTRADICTION. I hope you get this soon so we can move forward. 🙏

As pointed out, this is just basically compatibilism, except for the part in which it is claimed that we could not have done otherwise after the fact, which is a modal fallacy. So your author was basically a compatiblist without knowing it.
It is not compatibilism because it does not say that will is free under certain conditions in order to hold people morally accountable. You are not even close.
 
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