Defending The Soviet Union

[barbos]

The situation has changed over time, because land grant universities charge considerably more these days. Higher education was actually cheaper before the Reagan era, because there were plenty of opportunities to get scholarships and grants, if one qualified. In countries where higher education is "free", you still have to qualify for entrance, which is equivalent to winning a scholarship or grant. (Most of my undergraduate and graduate education was government-funded, even though I had to pay for tuition and other expenses. I also had a government-backed low interest loan that would be impossible to get nowadays, thanks to Republican rollbacks in spending for education.)

Unfortunately, science and academia suffered greatly under Communist rule. Whatever else the Soviet Union invented, it also invented  Lysenkoism.

Lysenko was ahead of his time - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epigenetics

I take the smiley to acknowledge your awareness of the bullshit. And Lysenko was not the only damage that Stalin perpetrated.

Half-bullshit. And I would give most of the "credit" to Lysenko himself.

Outside of certain protected fields, such as rocket science, Communist interference played havoc with the quality of education. Even as late as the 80s and 90s, libraries lacked materials from the West because of the wall of censorship. Soviet colleagues that I corresponded with had to beg me to send them materials.

In hard sciences like physics and chemistry there was no interference (at least since after WW2) . Chemistry was actually ahead of western one.

When I was in Russia for an academic conference in 1997, I had a chance to visit Moscow University. They were suffering greatly from loss of funding that had been caused by the collapse of the SU.

Well, yes in 1997, capitalists were in power

Again, the bullshit-eating grin. There was utter chaos, and education funding had been slashed because the country's economy was in transition.

I blame Bill Clinton. He failed miserably to help Russia transition after fall of USSR.

...Well, I got my "undergrad" degree in mostly Soviet Union and PhD in US. I can say education vise, USSR was better, US higher education is mostly a vehicle to extract money from students, don't know what it was in 1965 though.

Soviet education excelled in some areas and was miserable in others. Soviet engineering, science, and engineering were always quite excellent, but not better than in the US.

Well, that's debatable and I already had this debate. Soviet higher education was structured quite different from western one. So direct comparison is hard, But I can tell you one thing, if we take average graduate from top Soviet universities and top US universities then US would lose by a large margin. But then again that's because you can't directly compare these things. Top Soviet Unioversities are essentially graduate schools.

The problem was primarily that Soviet academics and scientists simply lacked access to materials that were widely available to Western scholars, especially historical materials that had been censored. Soviet academics could not travel or interact freely with their counterparts in the West, so they simply could not keep up with the latest developments. The social sciences were particularly devastated.

I don't consider social sciences especially in USSR worthy of respect.

In any case, it's an accepted fact that commies put a lot of effort of providing free stuff (education, health care, housing), it was really their thing with socialism and all that. Quality suffered but quality in general was not that great in USSR.

Socialists in general put a lot of effort into providing free stuff for the masses, but Western socialism was far superior to Soviet socialism in that respect, because the quality was much higher in non-Communist countries that guaranteed basic human rights. The good things that the Soviet system brought about do not excuse the abuses that held the country back for so many decades.

Western socialism countries did not have to worry about defense, US were protecting them.

 

[steve_bank]

When the Soviet union failed countries voted with their feet The majority of East Europe opted to have ties with the EU and NATO. I'd have to look up the exceptions and who is in The Russian Federation.

Poland and Solidarity is an example of rejecting Russia and the SU.

 

[steve_bank]

What should Clinton have done to help Russia? There was a succession of power grabs ending in the oligarchy today. State resources we sold off cheap to high ranking party members. The system that never really worked collapsed.

If Russians want change, it is up to them to make it happen.

People decry us as empire, and at the same time complain if we do nothing and mind our own business.

 

[barbos]

When the Soviet union failed countries voted with their feet The majority of East Europe opted to have ties with the EU and NATO. I'd have to look up the exceptions and who is in The Russian Federation.

Poland and Solidarity is an example of rejecting Russia and the SU.

Yugoslavia was an exception, but then NATO bombed them out of it. Solidarity leader was a KGB agent by the way. And current litvinian president had been 100% communist right until the end of it. Poland is now a major source of problems in EU. And so is Hungary and to a lesser degree Czech republic and Romania. And no, Russia has nothing to do with it, Poland's ruling party still hates Russia.

 

[barbos]

What should Clinton have done to help Russia?

Have no idea, but I do know that he has not even tried.

There was a succession of power grabs ending in the oligarchy today. State resources we sold off cheap to high ranking party members. The system that never really worked collapsed.

If Russians want change, it is up to them to make it happen.

Well, you did not use that logic in Japan/Germany after WW2, or even in East Germany in 1989

People decry us as empire, and at the same time complain if we do nothing and mind our own business.

Well, Clinton did nothing, and Obama put sanctions when Russia started kinda sort things out economy wise. So let me think about how should I feel about it.

 

[Harry Bosch]

When the Soviet union failed countries voted with their feet The majority of East Europe opted to have ties with the EU and NATO. I'd have to look up the exceptions and who is in The Russian Federation.

Poland and Solidarity is an example of rejecting Russia and the SU.

Yugoslavia was an exception, but then NATO bombed them out of it. Solidarity leader was a KGB agent by the way. And current litvinian president had been 100% communist right until the end of it. Poland is now a major source of problems in EU. And so is Hungary and to a lesser degree Czech republic and Romania. And no, Russia has nothing to do with it, Poland's ruling party still hates Russia.

I don't necessarily think that Poland or other such countries "hate" Russia. But they just want sovereignty. They just want to make decisions for themselves and do not want to return to bowing down to Russia.

 

[barbos]

When the Soviet union failed countries voted with their feet The majority of East Europe opted to have ties with the EU and NATO. I'd have to look up the exceptions and who is in The Russian Federation.

Poland and Solidarity is an example of rejecting Russia and the SU.

Yugoslavia was an exception, but then NATO bombed them out of it. Solidarity leader was a KGB agent by the way. And current litvinian president had been 100% communist right until the end of it. Poland is now a major source of problems in EU. And so is Hungary and to a lesser degree Czech republic and Romania. And no, Russia has nothing to do with it, Poland's ruling party still hates Russia.

I don't necessarily think that Poland or other such countries "hate" Russia. But they just want sovereignty. They just want to make decisions for themselves and do not want to return to bowing down to Russia.

Mmmm. you need to get up to date on EU politics. Putin does not even dream about controlling Poland.
Current Polish government hate Russia. They also hate Ukraine (WW2 stuff), and want Germany to pay them I don't remember in the order of $300bil (which is coincidentally equal to their debt to EU ) for WW2 shenanigans. Oh I forgot, they also say Russian government is behind that crash in which polish government delegation died. And they also recently pushed through court reform which makes courts completely dependent on government, EU really did not like that and put sanctions on Poland because of that. Their minister of defense is a real freak.

Yes, EU put sanctions on Poland

Hungary's Putin tried court reform similar to polish one but could not, so they are in better shape in that sense. Poland's government is a freak show, but economy is fine.
The irony of the situation is that there is some rationale behind that court reform shit in Poland and attempts of it Hungary. Independent court system seems to be susceptible to corruption so they try to copy Putin on that.

 

[poster]

It's interesting that people who are smart enough to question religious dogma found in holy books and regurgitated by the masses cannot find it in themselves to question political dogma found in publications and other outlets such as the NY Times, Washing Post, CNN, FOX, MSNBC and the rest of the media propagnada machine and also regergitated by the masses.

Try this - view the various media outlets as different churches spewing the same general bullshit if that helps see through the veil.

I don't see the former Soviet Union or the current state of Russia as any sort of panacea by far, but the majority of this group looks like a bunch of US propaganda lap dogs.

Just an observation!

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

Poland is now a major source of problems in EU.

Interesting example.

Poland rejected more immigrants. Germany decided that the EU should levy sanctions against Poland for that. Poland responded by demanding WWII reparations from both Germany and Russia.

The protest signs in Poland say "no fascists no communists".

 

[Copernicus]

When the Soviet union failed countries voted with their feet The majority of East Europe opted to have ties with the EU and NATO. I'd have to look up the exceptions and who is in The Russian Federation.

Poland and Solidarity is an example of rejecting Russia and the SU.

All of the satellite nations were unhappy under Soviet occupation, and Austria narrowly escaped the same fate. The  Hungarian Revolution of 1956 and the Czech  Prague Spring in 1968 were overt attempts to break away. Both were crushed by Soviet troops. In the case of Prague, there were pictures of burning Soviet tanks on which demonstrators had painted swastikas. Some young Soviet troops were completely unprepared for that kind of anti-Soviet sentiment and had to be "rotated" back home. The Polish opposition, loosely led by Lech Wałęsa, was far less violent, and people also used Catholic churches as a means of rallying opposition. Barbos may be correct that Wałęsa had cooperated as an informant for Communist authorities in 1980, but he was always playing a dangerous game. Those charges were never proven, but the evidence was likely suppressed to save the country the embarrassment of having their national hero shamed. After Poland won its independence peacefully, Wałęsa compromised with the Communist Party to help bring about the transition.

Thanks to Gorbachev's  Glasnost policies, the satellite countries were able to break away without fear of a Soviet reoccupation. It is no accident that all of those satellite nations moved quickly to join NATO and that Ukraine also wanted to join. Putin justified their fears when he seized Crimea and occupied much of eastern Ukraine. Barbos is probably right that Putin does not dream of occupying Poland or those other countries (with the possible exception of Moldova), but he does want to bring them back under the Russian sphere of influence. He doesn't dare attempt to invade a NATO country for the time being, but the Baltic states could be overrun very easily, as could Ukraine. What is happening in Chechnya is a good example of Putin's real ambitions. Chechnya failed to win its independence from Russia, but it did win a great deal of autonomy. It is now run by the corrupt, murderous  Ramzan Kadyrov, a former rebel warlord who defected to the Russian side at the beginning of the second Chechen war. For now, he is a very close ally of Putin.

 

[humbleman]

No, no, no.

This is unacceptable.

Stop attacking Putin and the Soviet Union.

My best organized legal defense: ♫CASATSCHOK!♫

[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dazaeQHrXIM[/YOUTUBE]

 

[Copernicus]

Since I've brought up the subject of Ramzan Kadyrov, it occurs to me that some readers may not be familiar with him. John Oliver did a famous profile of him in 2016, and you can see a 5-minute clip of it below. Enjoy.

[YOUTUBE]v5ri68tDZ0Q[/YOUTUBE]

 

[humbleman]

Since I've brought up the subject of Ramzan Kadyrov, it occurs to me that some readers may not be familiar with him. John Oliver did a famous profile of him in 2016, and you can see a 5-minute clip of it below. Enjoy.

[YOUTUBE]v5ri68tDZ0Q[/YOUTUBE]

Lol.

But, even Americans wear Putin T-shirts

 

[steve_bank]

I think the Poles and others are deeply fearful of Russia. They look at Georgia, Crimea, and Ukraine.

I had a philosophy professor who was a teen in Lithuania post war. A Russian political officer had a town meeting. A person stood up and said 'If god does not exist why must you prove it'. The Russian drew his side arm and shot him.

People renumber the Russians.

 

[barbos]

I think the Poles and others are deeply fearful of Russia. They look at Georgia, Crimea, and Ukraine.

I know you think that, media told you to think that, but you have been lied to.

I had a philosophy professor who was a teen in Lithuania post war. A Russian political officer had a town meeting. A person stood up and said 'If god does not exist why must you prove it'. The Russian drew his side arm and shot him.
People renumber the Russians.

Both sides have excellent anecdotes. They may even all be true.

 

[Copernicus]

I think the Poles and others are deeply fearful of Russia. They look at Georgia, Crimea, and Ukraine.

I know you think that, media told you to think that, but you have been lied to.

I don't think that he has about the message sent on Georgia, Crimea, and Ukraine. However, that has nothing to do with the historical animosity between Poles and Russians. It goes back centuries, and the Soviet era was not even the origin of it, although Poles had suffered grievous atrocities at the hands of Soviet troops. Katyn is still a festering sore, not to mention Stalin shifting and reducing the boundaries of the country to expand his own. It's not that Poles were ever any better as human beings, but animosities always tend to be one-sided perspectives on past behaviors. Poland had its heyday, but then it got carved up by its neighbors. Stalin was just reclaiming a lost province in his empire, and Hitler was playing him for a sucker. Doubtless, Stalin got some satisfaction out of reclaiming territory that had been lost when Pilsudski sent Trotsky's Red Army packing after their invasion of Polish territory.

 

[barbos]

I think the Poles and others are deeply fearful of Russia. They look at Georgia, Crimea, and Ukraine.

I know you think that, media told you to think that, but you have been lied to.

I don't think that he has about the message sent on Georgia, Crimea, and Ukraine. However, that has nothing to do with the historical animosity between Poles and Russians. It goes back centuries, and the Soviet era was not even the origin of it, although Poles had suffered grievous atrocities at the hands of Soviet troops. Katyn is still a festering sore, not to mention Stalin shifting and reducing the boundaries of the country to expand his own. It's not that Poles were ever any better as human beings, but animosities always tend to be one-sided perspectives on past behaviors. Poland had its heyday, but then it got carved up by its neighbors. Stalin was just reclaiming a lost province in his empire, and Hitler was playing him for a sucker. Doubtless, Stalin got some satisfaction out of reclaiming territory that had been lost when Pilsudski sent Trotsky's Red Army packing after their invasion of Polish territory.

You don't sound unbiased here.

 

[Copernicus]

I don't think that he has about the message sent on Georgia, Crimea, and Ukraine. However, that has nothing to do with the historical animosity between Poles and Russians. It goes back centuries, and the Soviet era was not even the origin of it, although Poles had suffered grievous atrocities at the hands of Soviet troops. Katyn is still a festering sore, not to mention Stalin shifting and reducing the boundaries of the country to expand his own. It's not that Poles were ever any better as human beings, but animosities always tend to be one-sided perspectives on past behaviors. Poland had its heyday, but then it got carved up by its neighbors. Stalin was just reclaiming a lost province in his empire, and Hitler was playing him for a sucker. Doubtless, Stalin got some satisfaction out of reclaiming territory that had been lost when Pilsudski sent Trotsky's Red Army packing after their invasion of Polish territory.

You don't sound unbiased here.

Wait. Are you saying that I am *more* biased than you? I thought that I had no biases. I am completely neutral on every issue, and everyone else is biased.

 

[barbos]

Wait. Are you saying that I am *more* biased than you? I thought that I had no biases. I am completely neutral on every issue, and everyone else is biased.

Yes, I am saying that. Truth is, Poland was a "Soviet Union" of middle ages which was a pain in the Russia's ass. Then it was "collapsed" by pupular demand of neighboring countries. Most of what can be called Poland became part of Russian Empire. Then after WW1 their "Putin" tried to rebuild it with some success (starving to death a bunch of Red Army POWs in the process, hello Katyn') then Stalin got everything more-less back in accordance to ethnic distribution and hence Ukraine and Belarus became what they are today.
Now about Polish "Soviet Union" time, they were not very nice to ukrainians or rather non-catholic type of ukrainians, and that's why ukrainians were not nice to poles later in WW2 and killed bunch of them when opportunity arose. Now "independent" and free from Russian influence Ukraine names streets after guys who were killing Poles during WW2 and poles are thinking about getting western Ukraine back
In other words it's a mess, even without Russia involved.

 

[Copernicus]

Thanks for the history lesson, barbos. I was reading Pravda and Izvestiya before you were born, and I've probably read a great deal more than you have from uncensored libraries. So forgive me, if I seem less than enamored of your take on the history of Poland and Russia, but I've been exposed to different perspectives on those subjects. I admit that I did not learn history in a Soviet school system, and I concede that there might have been yet another perspective that I've missed. But I do believe that there is some reason why history books in the Soviet Union were subject to extreme censorship and why Russian scholars rushed to learn about their history from Western materials after the collapse of the SU. It isn't because the West was subject to the same kind of censorship that existed in the Soviet Union.

The fact is that I could subscribe to Pravda and Izvestiya when I was a high school student learning Russian back in the 1960s. The CIA actually stopped my subscriptions and sent me a postcard asking whether I wished to continue receiving "propaganda" from the Soviet Union. I replied that I did, but other US citizens complained about this practice and took the CIA to court. The Supreme Court ruled against the CIA, and my subscriptions continued. I know that high school students studying English in the Soviet Union had no such opportunity to subscribe to US newspapers, let alone take the KGB to court for blocking access to Western "propaganda".