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None of that is helpful. Projecting today's values onto people some 250 years ago is absurd. What culture has ever existed that didn't do horrible things?
None.

Including our current ones.

Humans have always been vicious hypocritical arseholes who have done horrible things to each other, and there is exactly no reason whatsoever to assume that we are suddenly different in that regard from our ancestors.

Is it really your position that we should therefore not even try to do better than they did?

Talk about making the perfect the enemy of the good.

Your great-great-grandparents were vile hypocrites. As were mine. And as are we all. That's not an excuse to stop trying to do a little better today than we managed yesterday.
I never said we shouldn't try. I don't where you derived that from. You're inferring something that isn't there.
You implied that people 250 years ago should get a pass from us because their culture did horrible things as a matter of course.

If you accept (as you apparently do) that people today live in a culture that does horrible things as a matter of course, then it follows logically that you think people today should also get a pass from us.
Also the people from 250 years ago are dead. I can project my values onto them however I please.
 
Wikipedia says fifteen signers of the DoI didn't own any slaves.
I don’t own any slaves. Can I claim to be a humanitarian too, or is it a relative term?
The exception that proves the rule. Sam Adams received a slave as a gift. He freed her immediately.
Ok ok, I’ll give Sam some props. I wonder if (hope) I’d have done the same.
Spartacus revolted because being a slave gladiator sucks.
He “revolted” because he busted out of training camp with dozens of other badasses, and there was no way Rome could let them get away. If he had gone alone they might not have made him famous. The escapees quickly proved that the Roman military was no match for them in anything even close to even odds, and the rebels had people joining them, getting trained by them etc. it took a good portion of Rome’s available military resources to finally exterminate them.

There's a long list of former slaves who became slaveowners, in ancient times, in antebellum America, and elsewhere. Cicero famously observed "A slave dreams not of freedom, but of his own slaves." No doubt some of these were as hypocritical as Thomas Jefferson; but others undoubtedly absorbed the popular attitude of their times that slavery was fine as a practice and it was only sensible to want to be on the dishing out end rather than on the receiving end.
Indeed. Today, poor people don’t dream of freedom from oppression by avaricious billionaires like Trump, they want to BE avaricious billionaires like Trump. The more people a billionaire controlled system can keep poor, the greater their control.
 
Which of the founders was a true humanitarian. I've looked up which ones didn't own slaves and couldn't find any.
Among the famous founders, just Thomas Paine, Samuel Huntington, and the Adams family. Also of course plenty of obscure figures -- Wikipedia says fifteen signers of the DoI didn't own any slaves.

Samuel Adams would be a better example, as he was a life-long abolitionist and used his influence as a business leader to discourage slavery in his nascent state.
The exception that proves the rule. Sam Adams received a slave as a gift. He freed her immediately.

This is moral relatavism nonsense. People hundreds, indeed thousands of years, ago knew slavery was wrong. It is why Spartacus revolted.
This is anachronism nonsense. Spartacus revolted because being a slave sucks. There's no record of Spartacus raising any objection to the enslavement of anyone besides himself and his own followers. Not wanting something for yourself in no way means you don't want it for others -- you might as well argue that every soldier who tries not to get killed knows war is wrong. The normal attitude toward slavery in ancient times was that it was a personal misfortune. There was no abolitionist movement; nobody even spoke out against it but a few scattered weirdos. The Persian Empire had laws against it, true; but they only prohibited enslaving Zoroastrians.

These things were always known to be immoral.

Maybe not by all of the perpetrators, but certainly by all of the victims.
There's a long list of former slaves who became slaveowners, in ancient times, in antebellum America, and elsewhere. Cicero famously observed "A slave dreams not of freedom, but of his own slaves." No doubt some of these were as hypocritical as Thomas Jefferson; but others undoubtedly absorbed the popular attitude of their times that slavery was fine as a practice and it was only sensible to want to be on the dishing out end rather than on the receiving end.

To my mind, the true test of whether some dead guys knew it was wrong is whether they lied about the reasons for it. The ancient Spartans ritually declared war on their slaves every year for hundreds of years after the original war, to perpetuate the fiction that the practice was still about war and not exploitation. During the Atlantic slave trade era, slaves were treated better or worse in the receiving countries according to how expensive or cheap they were to replace by kidnapping more Africans; that would not have been the case if any of their proffered justifications were their real reasons. So yeah, most of those perpetrators have to have known it was wrong.

But the more important point is that all the perpetrators should have known it was wrong.
You may be right about Spartacus, but how right or not we don't know, as we have no records of his thoughts.
However, your last line is itself a bit dicey. Not everyone automatically knows what is right and wrong. That is why we (people) have so many disputes about morality. There are things that most people rationally know are wrong, but that certain individuals and groups lack such awareness. Plus there are things that people know are wrong, but they do them, or agree with other people doing them.
So it is not enough for people to know certain things are wrong, they have to not do them, or stop the people that do them (where possible).
 
None of that is helpful. Projecting today's values onto people some 250 years ago is absurd. What culture has ever existed that didn't do horrible things?
None.

Including our current ones.

Humans have always been vicious hypocritical arseholes who have done horrible things to each other, and there is exactly no reason whatsoever to assume that we are suddenly different in that regard from our ancestors.

Is it really your position that we should therefore not even try to do better than they did?

Talk about making the perfect the enemy of the good.

Your great-great-grandparents were vile hypocrites. As were mine. And as are we all. That's not an excuse to stop trying to do a little better today than we managed yesterday.
I never said we shouldn't try. I don't where you derived that from. You're inferring something that isn't there.
You implied that people 250 years ago should get a pass from us because their culture did horrible things as a matter of course.

If you accept (as you apparently do) that people today live in a culture that does horrible things as a matter of course, then it follows logically that you think people today should also get a pass from us.
Logic isn't in play here. Historical patterns are. You can't base societal issues on logic because people and societies aren't necessarily logical. What you're talking about is morals, but it's indisputable that different societies from different times had different morals.

For centuries slavery was a norm. It existed as far back as ancient Sumer and likely before that. Obviously it took a long time before more modern sensibilities became the norm.

You're using a straw man argument. Nobody here excuses immoral behavior in the present, but you're setting it up as if we do. It's not just a poor argument, it's insulting.
 
None of that is helpful. Projecting today's values onto people some 250 years ago is absurd. What culture has ever existed that didn't do horrible things?
None.

Including our current ones.

Humans have always been vicious hypocritical arseholes who have done horrible things to each other, and there is exactly no reason whatsoever to assume that we are suddenly different in that regard from our ancestors.

Is it really your position that we should therefore not even try to do better than they did?

Talk about making the perfect the enemy of the good.

Your great-great-grandparents were vile hypocrites. As were mine. And as are we all. That's not an excuse to stop trying to do a little better today than we managed yesterday.
I never said we shouldn't try. I don't where you derived that from. You're inferring something that isn't there.
You implied that people 250 years ago should get a pass from us because their culture did horrible things as a matter of course.

If you accept (as you apparently do) that people today live in a culture that does horrible things as a matter of course, then it follows logically that you think people today should also get a pass from us.
Also the people from 250 years ago are dead. I can project my values onto them however I please.
That doesn't mean you're right. Not by any stretch. You act as if you wouldn't have influenced by the culture you would've grown up in; that you would've been the enlightened one.
 
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