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BOTH SIDES

Yes to above. Americans have a real problem with this "both sides' situation. Apart from the simplification - there are more than two sides, those sides aren't Republican and Democrat, as they are one of the sides. They are both on the right-wing. The sides aren't as people claim, Republican Party/Right and Democratic Party/Left. This is itself a simplification as the Democratic Party is both on the same side (the corporationist aspect), and also one of the groups opposing the Republicans and their allies.
It is corporatism/evangelism/right-wing in an unholy alliance as one side, opposed by multi-sided many much weaker groups.
The two sides thing is at its core an attempt to obscure the role of many, many, diverse and often conflicted constituencies that make up the actual American population. No one who has ever found themselved targeted by this government - that is, most of us - really has a Party. The Parties are selected, run, and controlled by a tiny aristocratic minority class that has little interest or even need to know about the daily lives of most Americans.
That is basically what the founders wanted, although we have had times when it seemed or we were headed in a better direction. I probably posted this before, but when the founders said that all men were created equal, what they really meant was that all wealthy white men were created equal. They never included women, poor white men, aka poor white trash as labeled by the British, or minorities, including the Native tribes that were here long before the wealthy white men took over.

There have been many times when we started to head in a better direction, but with each step forward, we sadly took steps backward, but nothing has been as horrible was what we are living through now, unless you can back to the days prior tot he Civil War. Anyway, I'm sure you all know that.
Our founders were a diverse group in their own way. Some were genuine humanitarians, deeply convinced of universal human equality and potential. Others had no interest in philosophy or morality, and wanted Britain out of their affairs for purely commercial and pragmatic reasons. The former party was victorious in including some humanist language in the Constitution, and in arguing for a system of regulated amendation to define the rights of the citizen and interaction. They failed on almost all points of actual policy, and it wasn't until after the Civil War that the 14th amendment clarified what should always have been obvious: that laws mean nothing if they do not apply equally to all citizens.

Even that promise has yet to be altogether fulfilled. Slavery has never been fully abolished. The US still holds colonial properties, to which it refuses to extend full citizenship or even a reasonable level of care. The poor are not guaranteed fair treatment in the legal system. Our history education conceals more from our students than it reveals to them, as a rule.

Fortunately, there are many who would like those things to change, and in every American generation there have been small, dedicated factions still pressing the government to make the promises of the Constitution. Unfortunately, we are currently losing. To a historic degree.
Which of the founders was a true humanitarian. I've looked up which ones didn't own slaves and couldn't find any. Sure, many of not most of them gave excuses for why they owned slaves, like the economy is based on slavery or we must give the state's rights to own slaves. I've read at ;east a few books that leave me believing the founders were hypocrites. Some put in their wills that the slaves would be freed upon their death. Some supposedly had good relationships with their slaves. Imo, that doesn't make a single one of them a humanitarian.

All of them were against giving women equal rights. And, there is that book called "Poor White Trash" that explains how the British tried to get rid of all the poor white lower classes by sending them to America where most of them ended up as indentured servants. Oh wait. I just remembered another book, by Ellie Mystal, "Allow me to Retort, A Black guy's Guide to the Constitution".

Of course, these things are or were never taught to us in public school. For that matter, Columbus was considered a great hero in NJ when I was a child. We were told so many lies or false beliefs.

I don't care if the economy was based on slavery. It was disgusting to enslave people. Why couldn't they give them jobs with pay, decent food and housing etc, instead of hoarding the money for themselves and sometimes treating their enslaved people in brutal ways. I'm sure you've read the narrative of Frederick Douglas, a brilliant former slave who taught himself how to read etc. He gave details of what it was like to be a slave. Sorry, but based on my reading, the founders were not humanitarians, but if you can provide some examples of those who were, I'm listening.

Heather Cox Richardson does a great job of telling us what the origins of the country were really about. Based on her expertise, I've come to believe that the founders were always about making this country for the rich white elitists at the expense of other groups. There are some nice worded things in the constitution but it seems to be that a lot of it was bullshit. If it was meant sincerely, women, the poor, and minorities would all have been given equal rights from day one. Now, we're heading back to those days.

But, I digress. Then again, we do seem to have a problem staying on topic lately.
 
Which of the founders was a true humanitarian.
Most of them. Of course they only really considered people of their own ethnicity to be human. But they had a set of ethics that pointed them toward benefiting the entire population of people who looked like them.
 
Yes to above. Americans have a real problem with this "both sides' situation. Apart from the simplification - there are more than two sides, those sides aren't Republican and Democrat, as they are one of the sides. They are both on the right-wing. The sides aren't as people claim, Republican Party/Right and Democratic Party/Left. This is itself a simplification as the Democratic Party is both on the same side (the corporationist aspect), and also one of the groups opposing the Republicans and their allies.
It is corporatism/evangelism/right-wing in an unholy alliance as one side, opposed by multi-sided many much weaker groups.
The two sides thing is at its core an attempt to obscure the role of many, many, diverse and often conflicted constituencies that make up the actual American population. No one who has ever found themselved targeted by this government - that is, most of us - really has a Party. The Parties are selected, run, and controlled by a tiny aristocratic minority class that has little interest or even need to know about the daily lives of most Americans.
That is basically what the founders wanted, although we have had times when it seemed or we were headed in a better direction. I probably posted this before, but when the founders said that all men were created equal, what they really meant was that all wealthy white men were created equal. They never included women, poor white men, aka poor white trash as labeled by the British, or minorities, including the Native tribes that were here long before the wealthy white men took over.

There have been many times when we started to head in a better direction, but with each step forward, we sadly took steps backward, but nothing has been as horrible was what we are living through now, unless you can back to the days prior tot he Civil War. Anyway, I'm sure you all know that.
Our founders were a diverse group in their own way. Some were genuine humanitarians, deeply convinced of universal human equality and potential. Others had no interest in philosophy or morality, and wanted Britain out of their affairs for purely commercial and pragmatic reasons. The former party was victorious in including some humanist language in the Constitution, and in arguing for a system of regulated amendation to define the rights of the citizen and interaction. They failed on almost all points of actual policy, and it wasn't until after the Civil War that the 14th amendment clarified what should always have been obvious: that laws mean nothing if they do not apply equally to all citizens.

Even that promise has yet to be altogether fulfilled. Slavery has never been fully abolished. The US still holds colonial properties, to which it refuses to extend full citizenship or even a reasonable level of care. The poor are not guaranteed fair treatment in the legal system. Our history education conceals more from our students than it reveals to them, as a rule.

Fortunately, there are many who would like those things to change, and in every American generation there have been small, dedicated factions still pressing the government to make the promises of the Constitution. Unfortunately, we are currently losing. To a historic degree.
Which of the founders was a true humanitarian. I've looked up which ones didn't own slaves and couldn't find any. Sure, many of not most of them gave excuses for why they owned slaves, like the economy is based on slavery or we must give the state's rights to own slaves. I've read at ;east a few books that leave me believing the founders were hypocrites. Some put in their wills that the slaves would be freed upon their death. Some supposedly had good relationships with their slaves. Imo, that doesn't make a single one of them a humanitarian.
Okay, yes, "genuine" is a bit of a stretch. Jefferson's hypocrisies are well known. Washington was a slave-owner, and personally authorized genocidal tactics against a people he knew to be partially innocent of his charges. Samuel Adams would be a better example, as he was a life-long abolitionist and used his influence as a business leader to discourage slavery in his nascent state. His cousin Abigail Adams campaigned directly for the cause (and her presidential husband did not disapprove of her political activities, also unusually for a man of his time).

But to your larger point, yes, very few of that body took the human cause seriously, and even fewer were willing to incur personal risks or even inconveniences on behalf of slaves, natives, women, the formerly indentured underclass, non-english speakers, or their Continental and Caribbean allies, or... well, the list goes on.

Abolition at least was an important enough issue that some vaguely Rousseauan language was included in the law, and the means to follow up, very fortunately for us. But it was not their generation that truly did follow up on that promise, and when their great-grandchildren started to truly do so, it sparked an apocalyptic war of which we are still living in the grim social fallout.

All of them were against giving women equal rights. And, there is that book called "Poor White Trash" that explains how the British tried to get rid of all the poor white lower classes by sending them to America where most of them ended up as indentured servants. Oh wait. I just remembered another book, by Ellie Mystal, "Allow me to Retort, A Black guy's Guide to the Constitution".
The other book is probably Nancy Isenberg's "White Trash"? A very worthwhile read, especially for anyone who has their head in the sand about the nature of our racial politics.
 
As of 2025, 32% of registered voters across the dozens of states and territories with reported data chose not to affiliate with either the Democratic or Republican parties, up from 23% in 2000.
I strongly suspect that most of the increase from 23 to 32 percent came from disaffected democrats.
It's not great news for "the left* if that's the case.

* should be "the lefts" since there's a whole constellation of so called leftist concerns, all seemingly working at cross purposes.
 
Yes to above. Americans have a real problem with this "both sides' situation. Apart from the simplification - there are more than two sides, those sides aren't Republican and Democrat, as they are one of the sides. They are both on the right-wing. The sides aren't as people claim, Republican Party/Right and Democratic Party/Left. This is itself a simplification as the Democratic Party is both on the same side (the corporationist aspect), and also one of the groups opposing the Republicans and their allies.
It is corporatism/evangelism/right-wing in an unholy alliance as one side, opposed by multi-sided many much weaker groups.
The two sides thing is at its core an attempt to obscure the role of many, many, diverse and often conflicted constituencies that make up the actual American population. No one who has ever found themselved targeted by this government - that is, most of us - really has a Party. The Parties are selected, run, and controlled by a tiny aristocratic minority class that has little interest or even need to know about the daily lives of most Americans.
That is basically what the founders wanted, although we have had times when it seemed or we were headed in a better direction. I probably posted this before, but when the founders said that all men were created equal, what they really meant was that all wealthy white men were created equal. They never included women, poor white men, aka poor white trash as labeled by the British, or minorities, including the Native tribes that were here long before the wealthy white men took over.

There have been many times when we started to head in a better direction, but with each step forward, we sadly took steps backward, but nothing has been as horrible was what we are living through now, unless you can back to the days prior tot he Civil War. Anyway, I'm sure you all know that.
Our founders were a diverse group in their own way. Some were genuine humanitarians, deeply convinced of universal human equality and potential. Others had no interest in philosophy or morality, and wanted Britain out of their affairs for purely commercial and pragmatic reasons. The former party was victorious in including some humanist language in the Constitution, and in arguing for a system of regulated amendation to define the rights of the citizen and interaction. They failed on almost all points of actual policy, and it wasn't until after the Civil War that the 14th amendment clarified what should always have been obvious: that laws mean nothing if they do not apply equally to all citizens.

Even that promise has yet to be altogether fulfilled. Slavery has never been fully abolished. The US still holds colonial properties, to which it refuses to extend full citizenship or even a reasonable level of care. The poor are not guaranteed fair treatment in the legal system. Our history education conceals more from our students than it reveals to them, as a rule.

Fortunately, there are many who would like those things to change, and in every American generation there have been small, dedicated factions still pressing the government to make the promises of the Constitution. Unfortunately, we are currently losing. To a historic degree.
Which of the founders was a true humanitarian. I've looked up which ones didn't own slaves and couldn't find any. Sure, many of not most of them gave excuses for why they owned slaves, like the economy is based on slavery or we must give the state's rights to own slaves. I've read at ;east a few books that leave me believing the founders were hypocrites. Some put in their wills that the slaves would be freed upon their death. Some supposedly had good relationships with their slaves. Imo, that doesn't make a single one of them a humanitarian.

All of them were against giving women equal rights. And, there is that book called "Poor White Trash" that explains how the British tried to get rid of all the poor white lower classes by sending them to America where most of them ended up as indentured servants. Oh wait. I just remembered another book, by Ellie Mystal, "Allow me to Retort, A Black guy's Guide to the Constitution".

Of course, these things are or were never taught to us in public school. For that matter, Columbus was considered a great hero in NJ when I was a child. We were told so many lies or false beliefs.

I don't care if the economy was based on slavery. It was disgusting to enslave people. Why couldn't they give them jobs with pay, decent food and housing etc, instead of hoarding the money for themselves and sometimes treating their enslaved people in brutal ways. I'm sure you've read the narrative of Frederick Douglas, a brilliant former slave who taught himself how to read etc. He gave details of what it was like to be a slave. Sorry, but based on my reading, the founders were not humanitarians, but if you can provide some examples of those who were, I'm listening.

Heather Cox Richardson does a great job of telling us what the origins of the country were really about. Based on her expertise, I've come to believe that the founders were always about making this country for the rich white elitists at the expense of other groups. There are some nice worded things in the constitution but it seems to be that a lot of it was bullshit. If it was meant sincerely, women, the poor, and minorities would all have been given equal rights from day one. Now, we're heading back to those days.

But, I digress. Then again, we do seem to have a problem staying on topic lately.
None of that is helpful. Projecting today's values onto people some 250 years ago is absurd. What culture has ever existed that didn't do horrible things??? You might as well reference ancient Sumaria, trace all the cultures it spawned, all the ones spawned by those, and then say that no one prior to today should be taken seriously because Bad Things. Or maybe citing the potential destruction of the neanderthals by Homo sapiens should be brought to bear so that the entirety of every individual of the human race may be castigated and exorcised.

Of course that would mean you too, but whatever.

Oh, and if you want more Trump, keep throwing around terms like "rich white elitists." Maybe add in "white people problems" while you're at it.
 
maybe citing the potential destruction of the neanderthals by Homo sapiens should be brought to bear so that the entirety of every individual of the human race may be castigated and exorcised.
Of course, we deserve it, and we're gonna get it! That's why the ghosts of the Neanderthals, Denisovans, Cro Magnons, Homo Floresiensis and the whole gang ALL invented religions.
 
None of that is helpful. Projecting today's values onto people some 250 years ago is absurd. What culture has ever existed that didn't do horrible things?
None.

Including our current ones.

Humans have always been vicious hypocritical arseholes who have done horrible things to each other, and there is exactly no reason whatsoever to assume that we are suddenly different in that regard from our ancestors.

Is it really your position that we should therefore not even try to do better than they did?

Talk about making the perfect the enemy of the good.

Your great-great-grandparents were vile hypocrites. As were mine. And as are we all. That's not an excuse to stop trying to do a little better today than we managed yesterday.
 
Humans have always been vicious hypocritical arseholes who have done horrible things to each other, and there is exactly no reason whatsoever to assume that we are suddenly different in that regard from our ancestors.
The Meek shall probably have to inherit the earth several times over before not doing harm to each other and our environment becomes an evolutionary imperative. Maybe thousands of generations. Until then, lifespan to lifespan, it's going to be the same old general tribalist bellicosity.
 
None of that is helpful. Projecting today's values onto people some 250 years ago is absurd.

Are you trying to claim that no one in the late 18th century knew that slavery was wrong? Why then did so many of our Founding Fsthers vocally claim to oppose it? Why did the British soldiers on the march gleefully sing that their nation "Never was a slave!" ? Why were slaves routinely manumitted as a reward for good service (or a cost saving measure)? Why were slaves on both sides offered freedom as an incentive to fight in the war? Why was slavery abolished in the UK just 50 years after the war, when many who fought in it were yet alive?

No, Colonel. The folk of the 18th weren't dimwits. Then, as now, the debate over slavery was well known and vituperative. The pro-slavery faction won, at that time, not because they were moral innocents who only murdered, raped, and kidnsppwd by accidrnt, but because at that time slavery was profitable, and filled a labor niche that too few Europeans would fill for an equivalent price.
 
The unfortunate fact is that there are those who prefer monarchy, a rich upper class to tell everyone exactly what the rules are. I personally see such people as lazy minded and not very bright people who prefer to not have to think very hard.
The US Founding Fathers certainly felt that way.

They establised an aristocratic nation, with a rich upper class to tell everyone exactly what the rules are, but with the subtle twist that the (white, male) voters got to pick a subset of aristocrats (an 'Electoral College') who would pick a new king every few years (rather than waiting for the old one to die, and then replacing him with his son).

I think some of them were less than entirely lazy minded, but certainly they chose not to think very far outside the monarchist box they had just escaped.
Not really. For their time, the Founding Fathers were quite progressive. If you examine the context of the times: women worldwide were not cons deemed capable of managing their own affaires. Allowing slavery in parts of the US was a compromise that it would be easy to say should never have happened. Certainly we today would so argue. But it appeared to be the cost of unity—and unity was necessary to stand against Britain. I would argue that the US founding fathers had a more wide reaching vision of their newborn country that did Australia or any other nation at the time and for years after. We rejected the crown outright.

Under US law, states oversee ejections at the local, state and federal law. Shortly after the Constitution was adopted, property ownership was rejected in some states as early as 1792, it was finally eliminated totally in 1856. Extending voting rights to non-whites and to women came later. Of course we think those rights should have extended to all US citizens who had reached the age of 21 ( and now 18) from the beginning. But that was not how the world worked even for forward facing new countries.

Your comment seems like criticizing the Wright Brothers for not inventing jets.
 
The unfortunate fact is that there are those who prefer monarchy, a rich upper class to tell everyone exactly what the rules are. I personally see such people as lazy minded and not very bright people who prefer to not have to think very hard.
The US Founding Fathers certainly felt that way.

They establised an aristocratic nation, with a rich upper class to tell everyone exactly what the rules are, but with the subtle twist that the (white, male) voters got to pick a subset of aristocrats (an 'Electoral College') who would pick a new king every few years (rather than waiting for the old one to die, and then replacing him with his son).

I think some of them were less than entirely lazy minded, but certainly they chose not to think very far outside the monarchist box they had just escaped.
Not really.
It may have escaped your notice, but I was agreeing with what you said...
For their time, the Founding Fathers were quite progressive.
Perhaps. But their time sucked even worse than ours does, so that's far from praiseworthy.
If you examine the context of the times: women worldwide were not cons deemed capable of managing their own affaires. Allowing slavery in parts of the US was a compromise that it would be easy to say should never have happened.
Very easy indeed. And back then, it was easy too - and lots of people were saying it.
Certainly we today would so argue. But it appeared to be the cost of unity—and unity was necessary to stand against Britain.
Ahh. They were forced to be total assholes by circumstance. Such an excellent excuse that we still use it to this very day.
I would argue that the US founding fathers had a more wide reaching vision of their newborn country that did Australia or any other nation at the time and for years after.
Australia didn't exist as a country until 1901, so that claim isn't coherent.
We rejected the crown outright.
No, you absolutely did not. You just changed the name of your ruler from "king" to "president".

As current events are making increasingly clear.
Under US law, states oversee ejections at the local, state and federal law.
And it's working so well that MAGA has taken control of most states, and all of federal government.
Shortly after the Constitution was adopted, property ownership was rejected in some states as early as 1792, it was finally eliminated totally in 1856.
I have to assume that this is not what you intended to say; AFAICS property ownership was, and remains, remains a key element of the US political environment.
Extending voting rights to non-whites and to women came later. Of course we think those rights should have extended to all US citizens who had reached the age of 21 ( and now 18) from the beginning.
And again, we are in agreement.
But that was not how the world worked even for forward facing new countries.
It could have been; The Founding Fathers were literally in the business of deciding how the world would work (or at least, how the USA would work).
Your comment seems like criticizing the Wright Brothers for not inventing jets.
Not at all.

Your comments seem like a knee-jerk patriotic defence of untenable national myths.

Wanting your country to improve is morally justified. Wanting it to have been better in the past than it actually was is reasonable, despite being unachievable. Pretending that it actually was better in the past, when it clearly wasn't, is both factually wrong, and morally hazardous.

It's the difference between wanting to make America great, and wanting to Make America Great Again. That 'again' demands a bunch of nonsensical and untrue beliefs about America having been great at some poorly defined point in the past. No country in history has yet achieved greatness, as defined by treating everyone in a moral and ethical fashion.

Of course, if you conflate meanings, you can achieve a lot of dangerous self-congratulation; "Our country is great" might mean "Our country refuses to mistreat human beings", but it might also mean "Our country has the power to destroy anyone who says anything mean about it". The British Empire claimed to be "great" in the latter sense, but the Founding Fathers had at least the wit to refuse to accept the British conflation of those two meanings of "great".
 
Where the issue is for Cable News is all the opinionated to bitterly partisan commentary.
Are you blind?
No, but I'm needing readers these days.
FauxNews IS the prime example of Cable News and the opinionated partisan commentary you speak of.
I was splitting out news reporting v commentary. OANN and Newsmax are flat out propaganda stations that don't even report events accurately. Fox News generally reports the news, but the opinion portion of the channel (95% of content) is blindingly partisan.
 
The unfortunate fact is that there are those who prefer monarchy, a rich upper class to tell everyone exactly what the rules are. I personally see such people as lazy minded and not very bright people who prefer to not have to think very hard.
The US Founding Fathers certainly felt that way.

They establised an aristocratic nation, with a rich upper class to tell everyone exactly what the rules are, but with the subtle twist that the (white, male) voters got to pick a subset of aristocrats (an 'Electoral College') who would pick a new king every few years (rather than waiting for the old one to die, and then replacing him with his son).

I think some of them were less than entirely lazy minded, but certainly they chose not to think very far outside the monarchist box they had just escaped.
Not really. For their time, the Founding Fathers were quite progressive. If you examine the context of the times: women worldwide were not cons deemed capable of managing their own affaires. Allowing slavery in parts of the US was a compromise that it would be easy to say should never have happened. Certainly we today would so argue. But it appeared to be the cost of unity—and unity was necessary to stand against Britain. I would argue that the US founding fathers had a more wide reaching vision of their newborn country that did Australia or any other nation at the time and for years after. We rejected the crown outright.

Under US law, states oversee ejections at the local, state and federal law. Shortly after the Constitution was adopted, property ownership was rejected in some states as early as 1792, it was finally eliminated totally in 1856. Extending voting rights to non-whites and to women came later. Of course we think those rights should have extended to all US citizens who had reached the age of 21 ( and now 18) from the beginning. But that was not how the world worked even for forward facing new countries.

Your comment seems like criticizing the Wright Brothers for not inventing jets.
No, it's like criticizing the Wright Brothers for being racist.

So morality is just, what, to you? Majority rules? That is how law works in a democracy, but I'm not sure I am willing to reduce matters of conscience to "most people say this is okay, therefore it is." Sohy isn't saying it was illegal to own slaves. She's saying it was morally wrong. Because it was and is.
 
Toni said:
"We rejected the crown outright."
Bilby replied:
"No, you absolutely did not. You just changed the name of your ruler from "king" to "president".
As current events are making increasingly clear."
Me:
Disagree.
The current events are an aberration.
And 7 million of us recently took to the streets to again reject a clown crown outright.
 
Yes to above. Americans have a real problem with this "both sides' situation. Apart from the simplification - there are more than two sides, those sides aren't Republican and Democrat, as they are one of the sides. They are both on the right-wing. The sides aren't as people claim, Republican Party/Right and Democratic Party/Left. This is itself a simplification as the Democratic Party is both on the same side (the corporationist aspect), and also one of the groups opposing the Republicans and their allies.
It is corporatism/evangelism/right-wing in an unholy alliance as one side, opposed by multi-sided many much weaker groups.
The two sides thing is at its core an attempt to obscure the role of many, many, diverse and often conflicted constituencies that make up the actual American population. No one who has ever found themselved targeted by this government - that is, most of us - really has a Party. The Parties are selected, run, and controlled by a tiny aristocratic minority class that has little interest or even need to know about the daily lives of most Americans.
That is basically what the founders wanted, although we have had times when it seemed or we were headed in a better direction. I probably posted this before, but when the founders said that all men were created equal, what they really meant was that all wealthy white men were created equal. They never included women, poor white men, aka poor white trash as labeled by the British, or minorities, including the Native tribes that were here long before the wealthy white men took over.

There have been many times when we started to head in a better direction, but with each step forward, we sadly took steps backward, but nothing has been as horrible was what we are living through now, unless you can back to the days prior tot he Civil War. Anyway, I'm sure you all know that.
Our founders were a diverse group in their own way. Some were genuine humanitarians, deeply convinced of universal human equality and potential. Others had no interest in philosophy or morality, and wanted Britain out of their affairs for purely commercial and pragmatic reasons. The former party was victorious in including some humanist language in the Constitution, and in arguing for a system of regulated amendation to define the rights of the citizen and interaction. They failed on almost all points of actual policy, and it wasn't until after the Civil War that the 14th amendment clarified what should always have been obvious: that laws mean nothing if they do not apply equally to all citizens.

Even that promise has yet to be altogether fulfilled. Slavery has never been fully abolished. The US still holds colonial properties, to which it refuses to extend full citizenship or even a reasonable level of care. The poor are not guaranteed fair treatment in the legal system. Our history education conceals more from our students than it reveals to them, as a rule.

Fortunately, there are many who would like those things to change, and in every American generation there have been small, dedicated factions still pressing the government to make the promises of the Constitution. Unfortunately, we are currently losing. To a historic degree.
Which of the founders was a true humanitarian. I've looked up which ones didn't own slaves and couldn't find any. Sure, many of not most of them gave excuses for why they owned slaves, like the economy is based on slavery or we must give the state's rights to own slaves. I've read at ;east a few books that leave me believing the founders were hypocrites. Some put in their wills that the slaves would be freed upon their death. Some supposedly had good relationships with their slaves. Imo, that doesn't make a single one of them a humanitarian.

All of them were against giving women equal rights. And, there is that book called "Poor White Trash" that explains how the British tried to get rid of all the poor white lower classes by sending them to America where most of them ended up as indentured servants. Oh wait. I just remembered another book, by Ellie Mystal, "Allow me to Retort, A Black guy's Guide to the Constitution".

Of course, these things are or were never taught to us in public school. For that matter, Columbus was considered a great hero in NJ when I was a child. We were told so many lies or false beliefs.

I don't care if the economy was based on slavery. It was disgusting to enslave people. Why couldn't they give them jobs with pay, decent food and housing etc, instead of hoarding the money for themselves and sometimes treating their enslaved people in brutal ways. I'm sure you've read the narrative of Frederick Douglas, a brilliant former slave who taught himself how to read etc. He gave details of what it was like to be a slave. Sorry, but based on my reading, the founders were not humanitarians, but if you can provide some examples of those who were, I'm listening.

Heather Cox Richardson does a great job of telling us what the origins of the country were really about. Based on her expertise, I've come to believe that the founders were always about making this country for the rich white elitists at the expense of other groups. There are some nice worded things in the constitution but it seems to be that a lot of it was bullshit. If it was meant sincerely, women, the poor, and minorities would all have been given equal rights from day one. Now, we're heading back to those days.

But, I digress. Then again, we do seem to have a problem staying on topic lately.
None of that is helpful. Projecting today's values onto people some 250 years ago is absurd. What culture has ever existed that didn't do horrible things??? You might as well reference ancient Sumaria, trace all the cultures it spawned, all the ones spawned by those, and then say that no one prior to today should be taken seriously because Bad Things. Or maybe citing the potential destruction of the neanderthals by Homo sapiens should be brought to bear so that the entirety of every individual of the human race may be castigated and exorcised.

Of course that would mean you too, but whatever.

Oh, and if you want more Trump, keep throwing around terms like "rich white elitists." Maybe add in "white people problems" while you're at it.
This is moral relatavism nonsense. People hundreds, indeed thousands of years, ago knew slavery was wrong. It is why Spartacus revolted.
Calling people what they are won't give us "more Trump'. Also one of his platforms was the claim that a nebulous elite was in charge and he would rid the government of their influence. The irony of course is that he was and is a member of the financial/media elite and of the establishment, not some anti-establishment hero.
 
Toni said:
"We rejected the crown outright."
Bilby replied:
"No, you absolutely did not. You just changed the name of your ruler from "king" to "president".
As current events are making increasingly clear."
Me:
Disagree.
The current events are an aberration.
And 7 million of us recently took to the streets to again reject a clown crown outright.
Wow. That's more than 2% of Americans. And that's a quarter of a millennium after the decision was made, so "too little, too late", it would seem.
 
The unfortunate fact is that there are those who prefer monarchy, a rich upper class to tell everyone exactly what the rules are. I personally see such people as lazy minded and not very bright people who prefer to not have to think very hard.
The US Founding Fathers certainly felt that way.

They establised an aristocratic nation, with a rich upper class to tell everyone exactly what the rules are, but with the subtle twist that the (white, male) voters got to pick a subset of aristocrats (an 'Electoral College') who would pick a new king every few years (rather than waiting for the old one to die, and then replacing him with his son).

I think some of them were less than entirely lazy minded, but certainly they chose not to think very far outside the monarchist box they had just escaped.
Not really. For their time, the Founding Fathers were quite progressive. If you examine the context of the times: women worldwide were not cons deemed capable of managing their own affaires. Allowing slavery in parts of the US was a compromise that it would be easy to say should never have happened. Certainly we today would so argue. But it appeared to be the cost of unity—and unity was necessary to stand against Britain. I would argue that the US founding fathers had a more wide reaching vision of their newborn country that did Australia or any other nation at the time and for years after. We rejected the crown outright.

Under US law, states oversee ejections at the local, state and federal law. Shortly after the Constitution was adopted, property ownership was rejected in some states as early as 1792, it was finally eliminated totally in 1856. Extending voting rights to non-whites and to women came later. Of course we think those rights should have extended to all US citizens who had reached the age of 21 ( and now 18) from the beginning. But that was not how the world worked even for forward facing new countries.

Your comment seems like criticizing the Wright Brothers for not inventing jets.
No, it's like criticizing the Wright Brothers for being racist.

So morality is just, what, to you? Majority rules? That is how law works in a democracy, but I'm not sure I am willing to reduce matters of conscience to "most people say this is okay, therefore it is." Sohy isn't saying it was illegal to own slaves. She's saying it was morally wrong. Because it was and is.
Not at all!

But the absolute fact is that what is seen as moral vs immoral changes over time. Not all of the colonists and founding fathers supported slavery. Some thought slavery was morally reprehensible and argued against ot being allowed. It was eventually allowed in order to form the United States, something seen as vital to ending British rule.

The absolute fact is that what is seen as moral or immoral does change over time. Until relatively recently, husbands were allowed to force their wives to have sex. It wasn’t illegal and at worst, it was seen as bad form. In some states, children are still being married off to adults, most often as a way of covering up the child’s ‘sin’ of allowing themselves to be molested raised or even impregnated by a grown man. Domestic violence may be on the books as criminal but it is often not treated that way. Homosexuality was illegal as was cohabitation of an unmarried woman and unmarried man—a law I personally broke. In my lifetime, it was illegal for a white person to marry a black person or person of color. Lucille Ball and Desi Arnez ‘broke color barriers’ with their marriage and networks had to be strong armed into allowing their show to air. It was considered to be the morally right thing to do to force Indigenous children into so called boarding schools to ‘civilize’ them. Just scratching the surface of some of the truly fucked up things that were treated as perfectly normal and moral in the not at all distant past.

Of course it would have been better if the founding fathers had not felt it necessary to reach the compromises they reached. It would have been much, much better if slavery had never been allowed and if we had not committed genocide against the indigenous peoples living in the Americas.

Change the names of the groups and the locations of the atrocities and in fact, it has been very nearly universal that some of those in power treated some of those not in power as livestock, chattel, beneath consideration as fully adult humans. Including of course women of all colors and complexions and socioeconomic status. This is still going on and in fact there are some who want to bring back those days, right here in the US. And elsewhere.

It would be incorrect and offensive to not acknowledge the racism hard wired into the founding of our country. But also ignorant to fail to recognize that there have always been those who fought against such oppression —and who fought to change laws and to try to make the promise of the country pertain to all who live here.

Have we failed? I like to think that we just haven’t yet completely succeeded.
 
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