Would You Choose to Live in Heaven?

[Rhea]

Ah good now you have a concept opinion of "my" heaven in the next line.
(it does seem to come and go, I've noticed previously in a few posts)

Some people seem to know the concept of heaven or paradise but as I initially suspected, it's hardly going to move on beyond that (perhaps that's the intention ) when the focus is all about what I know in detail of heavenly costume designs and lunch menu's, so to speak. Could of asked instead..

What is the ideal heaven/paradise you would live in? (and is God in it maybe? obviously not to atheists)

Translated: “Oh goody, someone else has defined heaven for me, phew - off the hook. I had NO IDEA what to say and this was getting really uncomfortable. So yes, yes! What he said! Let’s talk about that, shall we?”

 

[Learner]

Translated: “Oh goody, someone else has defined heaven for me, phew - off the hook. I had NO IDEA what to say and this was getting really uncomfortable. So yes, yes! What he said! Let’s talk about that, shall we?”

You could wish upon a star for it, to be the case.

G'night

 

[Rhea]

Learner, I’m just really really disappointed in you, that’s all. You asked a question. I thought it would be interesting. I wanted to engage. I moved the discussion into it’s own thread so we could focus on it. And you refused to answer when I (and others) asked you for detail. You said, “would you want to live in heaven?” And then you danced and faked and perversely refused to explain what heaven is. You played games, “what do you think?” “What do your friends think.”

It was just so disappointing. I wanted to be able to answer you, but I didn’t want to presume to read your mind. I definitely did not want to play the game where I define heaven and then you tell me I’m wrong, and then you still never explain it and we’re just wrong all the way down with “hardened hearts” or “rebellious” or some bullshit.


I am disappointed in you and I don’t see wanting to engage in any further frustration.

I simply asked you to describe heaven. All you were willing to offer was “it’s not sad and there are various entertainments”. Oh, and big mansions. That was not a conversation, that was a game. You refused. I don’t know why you refused, but it was clear that you did. It was pointless to have said at the begininning, “okay, I’ll discuss this with you, let’s go,” because you never reciprocated.

 

[Treedbear]

Translated: “Oh goody, someone else has defined heaven for me, phew - off the hook. I had NO IDEA what to say and this was getting really uncomfortable. So yes, yes! What he said! Let’s talk about that, shall we?”

You could wish upon a star for it, to be the case.

G'night

Or would you like to swing on a star
Carry moonbeams home in a jar
And be better off than you are
...

 

[DBT]

If wishes were Landcruisers beggars would drive....

 

[skepticalbip]

But surely you believe that by clapping your hands and earnestly proclaiming, "I believe in fairies, I believe in fairies, I do, I do" that you can save Tinkerbell's life and the continued existence of fairies everywhere?

 

[bigfield]

I think Learner has made his position pretty clear: he has no idea what Heaven is like, just that it's a happy place full of well-behaved people who are happy that Jesus is in charge. Hell, on the other hand, is for people who can't follow the rules or who just can't stand Jesus.

I couldn't tell you and describe what design or label wil be on those white robes. I know it does at least mention white robes - it's vague I know. 'Happy place' however sounds ideal (..ideal for the meek) don't you think? You know... like the expression you sometimes hear when someone passes away: "They're in a BETTER place" assuming they are talking about a person who had a tough life, or have been suffering, living in misery etc.. Let them experience happy for once, I say.

So basically, Learner's Heaven is Communism in the Clouds, which means that Hell is for everyone who can't abide by the rules.

Ah good now you have a concept opinion of "my" heaven in the next line.
(it does seem to come and go, I've noticed previously in a few posts)

Some people seem to know the concept of heaven or paradise but as I initially suspected, it's hardly going to move on beyond that (perhaps that's the intention ) when the focus is all about what I know in detail of heavenly costume designs and lunch menu's, so to speak. Could of asked instead.

LOL, white robes.

Rhea really wants you to just describe how you imagine Heaven to be. Describe the setting you imagine. If you are imagining the luxury resort depicted on The Simpsons, then just say so; you don't have to describe the lunch menu. And what does Jesus' rules entail? What rules do people have to follow?

 

[funinspace]

Yin AND Yang

Sorry as this isn't going to be much of an answer, as it is more of what it couldn't/shouldn't be IMPOV...and I think it is part of why you get quite a bit of negative reactions as many do recognize what is one of the very real descriptions of the Bible to be (minus vague details of pretty streets, food and drink) of a purported afterlife in both directions. Also, there are a dozen differing Christian views of just who might go to these heaven/hell constructs as well, so most want to know where a Christian poster hangs their hat. Many of us 'atheists' find that far too many Evangelicals seem a tad too much in luv with violence, war, and death (of others)...

What is the ideal heaven/paradise you would live in? (and is God in it maybe? obviously not to atheists)

I don't think I would want my thoughts (I would say brain, but would it be a 'brain') rewired so human sensuality is short circuited. I wouldn't want my thoughts/thinking so altered that it would be numb to what I consider the eternal torment for the masses for everyone who knowingly don't grovel at Jesus feet. IMPOV an eternal tormenting hell is the most rational interpretation of the totality of the jumbled Bible narrative. What would be left of myself-persona, if I didn't feel anguish about a parent, sibling, child, or close friend eternally suffering who was not able to conceive that this Bible God (in whatever description from an 'authoritative Bible') is real and should be worshiped? Or would they just be erased from my memory? How would past relationships mix with later married ones, I have no idea for everyone's 'happiness'. Spending eternity worshiping some currently vague all powerful entity doesn't exactly float my boat. I could not conceive of torturing a child that swore at me and said they never wanted to see me again, and then fell into a life of sex, drugs and rock and roll. Yet, by typical evangelical descriptions of heaven AND hell, their God would do just that.

What little I could say, is that I would hope my thoughts would still find challenges, that I could still find things to laugh at and people to laugh with. How one could do this for eternity, hell if I know... I wouldn't want other suffering, whether I know of it or not. No more childish wars, starvations, sexism, or racism would be an obvious nicety.

In simpleton entertainment speak, with Punxsutawney as Phil's hell:
Phil: "I was in the Virgin Islands once. I met a girl. We ate lobster, drank piña coladas. At sunset we made love like sea otters. That was a pretty good day. Why couldn't I get that day over and over and over?"

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

The question is one like kids ask each other:

"Don't you wish Christmas was everyday?"
"Yeah, that would be so cool!"

or:

"I hope on our next cast we catch the biggest fish in the world."
"Yeah, that would be so cool!"

When you're eight years old, opening presents or sitting on the bank fishing, these thoughts are right common. For rational adults I guess they amount to angels on pinheads. The only real and lasting benefit to thinking about such questions is that they make our brains stronger. And stronger is not the same thing as smarter.

 

[Learner]

" ..make our brains stronger. And stronger is not the same thing as smarter."

Hmm ok, looks like the weaker brain sounds more advantageous. It's a tough one .

 

[Learner]

Learner, I’m just really really disappointed in you, that’s all. You asked a question. I thought it would be interesting. I wanted to engage. I moved the discussion into it’s own thread so we could focus on it. And you refused to answer when I (and others) asked you for detail. You said, “would you want to live in heaven?” And then you danced and faked and perversely refused to explain what heaven is. You played games, “what do you think?” “What do your friends think.”

I gave a description, but it doesn't seem to be recognised or acknowledged now. You did for brief moment when you said below in red. All we have is this. In which you must agree, it's NOT refusing anything at all. Saying I refused this or that is giving false represention/ misrepresentation.

BigField agrees with me. I don't have to give the unknowable details of "fashion designed white robes" etc.., so to speak.

I don’t get this. I honestly do not get why you are so scared to just describe the heaven you want t ask us whether we’d live in.

Can’t you pray about this or something? ASk for Jesus’ help in describing Heaven? If you’re sincere, I’ve heard he’ll give you what you want.

So far, all we have is this.

There's no more suffering pain, no death or disease, but theres abundance of various things that caters for every need e.g. no more hunger or thirst etc. in the paradise, and not to forget, also seeing your loved ones and above all ... God.

In what way is this different from a coma on a feeding tube?
*Is* it different?

People will live Happy and be free from death and sickness and have plenty of food and live in wonderful houses or mansions, and there will be wonderful trees and fields of green and all types of flowers and no more wild dangerous animals. There will be angels, saints, God and Jesus, and plenty of Love.

Coma hmmm. Previous Concept Discription not satisfying enough for you?

Then there was the 2nd description in bold - wondeful trees and fields of green... and so forth. That is how I imagined it. Hardly a refusal to give an anwser.

It was just so disappointing. I wanted to be able to answer you, but I didn’t want to presume to read your mind. I definitely did not want to play the game where I define heaven and then you tell me I’m wrong, and then you still never explain it and we’re just wrong all the way down with “hardened hearts” or “rebellious” or some bullshit.

"Define it and tell you that you're wrong?" For what puporse of gain would that be to me? You would have answered the question regardless, which is what I was interested with. It did seem to me, that you were avoiding something, but you eventually gave some answer.

I am disappointed in you and I don’t see wanting to engage in any further frustration.

Well sorry about that but I wanted to drop it back then, as I said earlier.

I simply asked you to describe heaven. All you were willing to offer was “it’s not sad and there are various entertainments”. Oh, and big mansions. That was not a conversation, that was a game. You refused. I don’t know why you refused, but it was clear that you did. It was pointless to have said at the begininning, “okay, I’ll discuss this with you, let’s go,” because you never reciprocated.

As you put it: "All I said," ...again is not refusal, regardless if of whether you like the anwser or not.

Like the saying goes regarding propaganda - repeating something false many times may influence people to believe it true. And...now look what you've gone and done repeating the same rhetoric - there have been one or two who were going along the same debating line.



(back in a bit after a little sleep)

 

[bigfield]

I think I've got a pretty clear picture of Heaven, now: it's some kind of woodland resort with just the nice animals. The food is good, I get to wear white robes (possibly tailored) and there's plenty of fun things to do to keep me occupied for an eternity. But I also have to worship God the entire time, and some things are off limits because God says they are sins.

The worship and the rules are a bit of a deal-breaker, so what are my other options? Is there an option where I can do whatever I want for eternity without worshipping some old flog or following his rules?

 

[ideologyhunter]

Shouldn't heaven be nudist? Doesn't heaven restore us to our pure state, namely, Adam and Eve, pre-talkin' snake? Trust me, nudism is mandatory. I guarantee you they have volleyball. BTW, this would explain why Christians fantasize that in heaven, you're restored to your best physical age. Who wants to see fat old Jerry Falwell, buck naked, spiking the ball over the net? No one wants to see floppy old nutsacks wagging back and forth.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Shouldn't heaven be nudist? Doesn't heaven restore us to our pure state, namely, Adam and Eve, pre-talkin' snake? Trust me, nudism is mandatory. I guarantee you they have volleyball. BTW, this would explain why Christians fantasize that in heaven, you're restored to your best physical age. Who wants to see fat old Jerry Falwell, buck naked, spiking the ball over the net? No one wants to see floppy old nutsacks wagging back and forth.

Gotta be a lot of alcohol in heaven then, because alcohol makes everyone more attractive.

 

[skepticalbip]

I am left wondering who is it that has to clean those mansions, make the beds, prepare the feasts, wash those white robes, etc. in this idyllic spa resort view of heaven. Is god a kind of slave that is tasked with seeing to any whim that any of the billions of "chosen" may have? Or maybe, is it that those who were good enough to get into heaven but not good enough to be treated so royally become slaves for the "really good" ones?

 

[Rhea]

It did seem to me, that you were avoiding something, but you eventually gave some answer.

I do not think that you actually understand my answer.

ANSWER to your question: No I would not live in your vague, cagey, deceptive coma world. It describes something that could be truly horrific and you are not making me o anyone feel any more comfortable about it with your terrified fear of describing it.

This answer tries to tell you: You have not formulated an actual question that can be answered. You have offered me a pig in a poke. I do not buy pigs in pokes, my brain does not accept that as a choice. I cannot answer whether I would live in your heaven because it is insufficiently defined to be capable of answering. So I have answered, “without more information you have not asked a real question, all you’ve got is a pig in a poke, so no I will not buy a pig in a poke.”

If you took anything else from my answer beyond “I do not see an honest question,” then you have failed to understand what is happening in the conversation.


You were finally able to bring up this pablum:

There's no more suffering pain, no death or disease, but theres abundance of various things that caters for every need e.g. no more hunger or thirst etc. in the paradise, and not to forget, also seeing your loved ones and above all ... God.

People will live Happy and be free from death and sickness and have plenty of food and live in wonderful houses or mansions, and there will be wonderful trees and fields of green and all types of flowers and no more wild dangerous animals. There will be angels, saints, God and Jesus, and plenty of Love.

This is absolutely of the “wouldn’t it be great if it were Christmas every day” level of discussion. It has too many inconsistencies. Lion says you’ll be worshipping all day, you say everyone will be happy and free. The bible says you’ll have new bodies, so what are the mansions for? (I do not choose to live in a mansion here on earth, can’t imagine being “happy and free” in one later on). You say you’ll see your loved ones, but have no contingency for what if you are not their loved one. You say there is no more suffering or pain, and yet you say there is a hell with people in it, suffering. It’s all so shallow and unworkable that it just does not make a lick of sense.. It just doesn’t make any sense.

It makes no kind of sense at all. I just hear you say that and I think, “holy crap, I do not ever want to be on a project with this person, ever. He would run the electric through the bathtub and put the toilet on the sofa. And call the whole thing paradise.”

My answer remains: I cannot possible say yes to the shallow and contradictory pablum that you call heaven. Because it makes no sense.

It did seem to me, that you were avoiding something, but you eventually gave some answer.

Yes, I was avoiding making a stupid decision based on conflicting information. I was avoiding putting words in your mouth. I was avoiding prejudging you as an intellectual lightweight. I was waiting for you to put forth a description that was worthy of a conversation.

I finally concluded that I would not be able to have that conversation with you, and I gave you that answer.
And I suspect that you do not understand that answer at all.

 

[ideologyhunter]

It's a fiction that pleases believers. You can point out loopholes and inconsistencies, but it still hits the sweet spot too strongly to be denied. Since the subtext is magic, anything, Anything, can be talked around and 'made shipshape.' Same goes with any religious controversy. Dialogue from my side of things is pointless, because I won't concede any of the magic protocols to their vision. These 14 pages sound like the conversation I could have with my 'saved' cousins if I ever took the bait and let them suck me into a faith talk (shudder).

 

[abaddon]

It's the warm fuzzies that the belief gives that matters most to the believer. The emotion's nice but lacks detail so there are not many details to give - just enough detail for an emotional appeal.

"Wouldn't you buy the bridge if it's the most wonderful bridge of all bridges?" You're supposed to find "the most wonderful" part of that offer overwhelmingly appealing. The bridge itself hardly matters by comparison.

I compete against some scammers who are basically dangling ye olde "Only $19.95!" at people who want to "save money". The appeal of little numbers works for those minds that only respond to the appeal and won't examine the details (which is a great many people).

 

[Treedbear]

It's the warm fuzzies that the belief gives that matters most to the believer. The emotion's nice but lacks detail so there are not many details to give - just enough detail for an emotional appeal.
...

Beware of "The Comfy Chair".

 

[Learner]

LOL, white robes.

Rhea really wants you to just describe how you imagine Heaven to be. Describe the setting you imagine. If you are imagining the luxury resort depicted on The Simpsons, then just say so; you don't have to describe the lunch menu.

And what does Jesus' rules entail? What rules do people have to follow?

At the time you posted, I think you came later in the discussion. I did say so.

The fellow that did the depiction seems to get the gist from the so called "vague" biblical narrative. The backdrop is similar to how I'd picture it (in cartoon).

Following rules...

...that's the point! It would be for those who would put their TRUST in Jesus / God (as it's often said to do) - those who would WANT to be there, whatever the rules are.