Would You Choose to Live in Heaven?

[Lion IRC]

Yeah, fun and games, and a hell of a dodge...

But then, in this new heavenly form, Lion won't be able to give a shit either...so in a twisted way he could be right, if the holy book is on the money.

PS If one wants to promote some notion of a heavenly afterlife, it would be nice if the same person would be forthright about what they think what happens to everyone outside of their party town..per their interpretation of said holy book.

God / The Bible is very clear that each person is judged individually according to their actions and what's in their heart. Only deliberate, wilful, unrepentant sin is punished. (See Romans 2:6)

If someone is honestly ignorant or sincerely mistaken and whose actions show they have the intent in their heart to be a 'good' person, God weighs this up with mercy. He also judges more harshly those who should know better. (See Luke 12:47 James 4:17 John 9:41)

Proverbs 24:12
If you say, “See, we did not know this,”
Does He not consider it who weighs the hearts?
And does He not know it who keeps your soul?
And will He not render to man according to his works?

So is that an eternal Auschwitz for the masses (aka billions of people), or what in your POV?

I thought this thread was about heaven.

Do I think hell is "an eternal Auschwitz"?
No. Unlike Auschwitz, hell is voluntary.
The gates of hell are locked from the inside.

I'm not a mind reader...

I don't expect you to be.
Neither do I expect ppl to be accused of evasiveness or dishonesty simply because their answer isn't as thorough as the persistent, gnat-straining interrogator demands it to be.

Everyone dog piling on Learner demanding finite details about heaven which YOU KNOW he can't answer from scripture, doesn't give you the right to play the poor victim (who can't read minds.) Its not about mind reading.

and there are many very real and very different views of what hell is (isn't) and who goes there by dozens of significant Christian sects.

Sure. So what?
They all represent hell as the opposite of heaven.

I know most of the verses in the Bible regarding hell. I know what I used to believe. I know what Southern Baptists Convention theology states and what the majority of that group thinks. I know what ELCA theology states and what the majority of that group thinks.

Great. Why not help Learner out by splaining to Rhea what heaven is.

What is Lion IRC's theological view? Or are you going to just stick to your word games?

WTAF?
I'm not playing word games.
Scripture is my authoritative goto for answers about the doctrine of heaven and atheists who claim to 'know the bible' better than folks like Learner and me shouldn't need to ask us...."at the resurrection, whose wife will she be of the seven, since all of them were married to her?"

PS This is my last try to get you to communicate rationally.

This is your last chance to communicate without passive aggressive ad hominems.

If you persist in your word salad games, I will kick off the dust from my keyboard not not be bothered further...

If you can't understand what I write you should not waste your time any further.

 

[ideologyhunter]

Which is a throne and 24/7 *worship*

24/7 worship should qualify as pathological, like suffering from logorrhea or practicing nonstop skin picking.

 

[funinspace]

I'm not a mind reader...

I don't expect you to be.
Neither do I expect ppl to be accused of evasiveness or dishonesty simply because their answer isn't as thorough as the persistent, gnat-straining interrogator demands it to be.

This is hardly the 4th time you've done what you do in our back and forth's. Your smart and knowledgeable, and you know the game that you seem to prefer to stay within. Anywho, as I can't care enough to slog thru it...TTFN

Everyone dog piling on Learner demanding finite details about heaven which YOU KNOW he can't answer from scripture, doesn't give you the right to play the poor victim (who can't read minds.) Its not about mind reading.

I'm not everyone. I didn't pile on Learner, but I did point out one thing. I didn't expect a quick answer (if any), as he has a lot of people to respond to. In fact, I find Learner to be fairly forthright and decent in his responses to his dog piles.

 

[Rhea]

So is that an eternal Auschwitz for the masses (aka billions of people), or what in your POV?

I thought this thread was about heaven.

I am guessing that is because for you, in heaven, the torture of other people will not bother you; yu may even find joy in it, like Aquinas. The smell of their burning flesh may be pleasure to your nostrils.

We are bringing it up because to us, it is impossible to feel “joy without sadness” while knowing that ANYONE, no matter how evil, is being torutred for eternity.

While to you, the torture of humans is just, “eh, why are we bothing to talk about them? Let them eat coal!”

 

[ideologyhunter]

"For the gate to life is a narrow one, and the way to life is hard, and few people find it." Since that's JC talking, this is basic Christianity. He's saying that the great mass of his father's human creations deserve and will get an eternity of torment.

 

[Rhea]

Neither do I expect ppl to be accused of evasiveness or dishonesty simply because their answer isn't as thorough as the persistent, gnat-straining interrogator demands it to be.

Learner’s answer was to not answer at all. He kept asking me to define it. He kept asking me to ask my friends. If he didn’t want to be asked so many times, he could have made the choice to post the verses that you did, he could have made the choice to provide some sentences of his own. Instead, he avoided answering altogether, which is not providing something that can be argued as un-thorough, he was providing NOTHING.

Everyone dog piling on Learner demanding finite details about heaven which YOU KNOW he can't answer from scripture,

Do we? Do we know he can’t answer it from scriipture?
Then why would he expect me to be able to? Or my friends?
And why would he want to go to a place that he cannot possibly describe. Isn’t that foolish?

What is Lion IRC's theological view? Or are you going to just stick to your word games?

WTAF?
I'm not playing word games.
Scripture is my authoritative goto for answers about the doctrine of heaven and atheists who claim to 'know the bible' better than folks like Learner and me shouldn't need to ask us...."at the resurrection, whose wife will she be of the seven, since all of them were married to her?"

You keep saying this thing, that “atheists claim they know better”. And yet this whole argument, this whole “piling on,” this whole “straining gnats” is because I was claiming loud and clear that I do not know this answer and if he wants me to make a choice about his heaven I will not presume to know what it means and I need him to provide the correct context.

So here’s you, disrupting the discussion to complain that I am humbly saying I do NOT know the scripture and giving the Christian the floor to describe it.

Nice game, Lion. Not giving it a pass.
You don’t get to say I’m annoying in asking the christian to explain christianity, but you won’t answer because you claim I’m not letting the Christian give the answer.


So yes, you are playing word games.

1. Learner asked me my opinion on a piece of theology.
2. I said I do not know this theology, describe it. (Remember this step for later, it’s important)
3. Learner said, no, you describe it, or ask your friends
4. I said no, then I am not answering your question, I am answering theirs. What is your question
5. Lion said “stop badgering the poor christian, he shouldn’t have to explain christian theology to atheists who claim to know it all!”
6. I say: see step 2 in this thread. I do not claim to know heaven theology.

 

[Rhea]

Perhaps what we have all learned here is that it makes no sense to ask people if they want to go to heaven because it cannot be described, so who would be foolish enough to claim a desire to go to a commplete unknown for eternity? It is a question that, perhaps by definition, cannot be answered.

 

[James Brown]

God / The Bible is very clear that each person is judged individually according to their actions and what's in their heart.

That's a relief. No need to be a Christian, then.

But when Jesus said, "I am the Way...No one comes to the Father but through me," did he not know about this custom judgement plan?

 

[James Brown]

The gates of hell are locked from the inside.

No they aren't.

 

[DBT]

Where is scriptual support for 'Hell is voluntary' to be found?

 

[Rhea]

Where is scriptual support for 'Hell is voluntary' to be found?

Er...

"For the gate to life is a narrow one, and the way to life is hard, and few people find it."

Maybe they left “voluntarily” out of this one?
Maybe they don’t know what “few” means?

Those translaors. So unreliable.

 

[bigfield]

I think Learner has made his position pretty clear: he has no idea what Heaven is like, just that it's a happy place full of well-behaved people who are happy that Jesus is in charge. Hell, on the other hand, is for people who can't follow the rules or who just can't stand Jesus.

So basically, Learner's Heaven is Communism in the Clouds, which means that Hell is for everyone who can't abide by the rules.

 

[ideologyhunter]

The heaven/hell setup is a negation of the Christian emphasis on forgiveness. They better hope it's not the ultimate Punked, from God -- leading smug Christians on, until their hypocrisy trips them up. They ascend to heaven, all sparkling white in new robes, fill out their forms, list all the family members they assume are in hell, then notice a huge crowd of the people they thought had been damned. "My god, it's my daughter, Heather. The last time I saw her, she was a meth freak shacked up with two teenage boys, and she told me that I blew and the Bible sucked. And -- what is Christopher Hitchens doing up here?"
(Voice from heaven's sound system) "You dirtbags thought you had it made. Did you never understand the Prodigal Son? What did you think it meant when I said to forgive your enemies and do good to those who hate you? Look inside yourself, like I was always commanding you!"
One of the bold smug ones: "Oh, great. Does that mean that we are the ones going to hell?"
Voice: "You still don't get it. No. You can stay! You're welcome! Your job for eternity is to serve these folks you were just scorning. They are the ones who actually inherited heaven. You are here on their sufferance."

I think my fiction is more humane than the one in the world's best selling book.

 

[Learner]

I think Learner has made his position pretty clear: he has no idea what Heaven is like, just that it's a happy place full of well-behaved people who are happy that Jesus is in charge. Hell, on the other hand, is for people who can't follow the rules or who just can't stand Jesus.

I couldn't tell you and describe what design or label wil be on those white robes. I know it does at least mention white robes - it's vague I know. 'Happy place' however sounds ideal (..ideal for the meek) don't you think? You know... like the expression you sometimes hear when someone passes away: "They're in a BETTER place" assuming they are talking about a person who had a tough life, or have been suffering, living in misery etc.. Let them experience happy for once, I say.

So basically, Learner's Heaven is Communism in the Clouds, which means that Hell is for everyone who can't abide by the rules.

Ah good now you have a concept opinion of "my" heaven in the next line.
(it does seem to come and go, I've noticed previously in a few posts)

Some people seem to know the concept of heaven or paradise but as I initially suspected, it's hardly going to move on beyond that (perhaps that's the intention ) when the focus is all about what I know in detail of heavenly costume designs and lunch menu's, so to speak. Could of asked instead..

What is the ideal heaven/paradise you would live in? (and is God in it maybe? obviously not to atheists)

 

[southernhybrid]

The heaven/hell setup is a negation of the Christian emphasis on forgiveness. They better hope it's not the ultimate Punked, from God -- leading smug Christians on, until their hypocrisy trips them up. They ascend to heaven, all sparkling white in new robes, fill out their forms, list all the family members they assume are in hell, then notice a huge crowd of the people they thought had been damned. "My god, it's my daughter, Heather. The last time I saw her, she was a meth freak shacked up with two teenage boys, and she told me that I blew and the Bible sucked. And -- what is Christopher Hitchens doing up here?"
(Voice from heaven's sound system) "You dirtbags thought you had it made. Did you never understand the Prodigal Son? What did you think it meant when I said to forgive your enemies and do good to those who hate you? Look inside yourself, like I was always commanding you!"
One of the bold smug ones: "Oh, great. Does that mean that we are the ones going to hell?"
Voice: "You still don't get it. No. You can stay! You're welcome! Your job for eternity is to serve these folks you were just scorning. They are the ones who actually inherited heaven. You are here on their sufferance."

I think my fiction is more humane than the one in the world's best selling book.

That's a good one, but I prefer the heaven that is run by dogs. Have you ever seen the old nonsequiter comic where there's a dog standing behind the pulpit at the pearly gates with a feather quill in his paw. Before him stands a man looking shocked. The dog, who has a halo over his head says, "Well....yes...considering you people have been spelling my name backwards all this time, I imagine this would come as a bit of a surprise. to you..."

To me, the concept of heaven is as absurd as that nonsequiter comic strip that has been on my refrigerator door for many years.

Why not just do what little you can to make this life better for a few people who you know? I'll never have the power to change the world, but I can do a few little things to make life a little bit easier or more cheerful for a few people in my life. I just can't believe in an after life. In fact, the word itself is an oxymoron, isn't it?

 

[Lion IRC]

Where is scriptual support for 'Hell is voluntary' to be found?

1 Tim 2:4, John 3:17, Matthew 22:3, Joel 2:32, Acts 2:21, 2 Peter 3:9, Deuteronomy 5:33, Matthew 4:17...

There's two principles here. Firstly, God doesn't want people to go to hell. Secondly, obedience to God is a free choice. CS Lewis goes even further and argues that the inhabitants of hell escalate their rejection of God and their increasing hatred of Him locks the gates even more tightly.

And just as hell is optional, heaven is not mandatory. You don't have to be in heaven if you don't want.

 

[abaddon]

Where is scriptual support for 'Hell is voluntary' to be found?

1 Tim 2:4, John 3:17, Matthew 22:3, Joel 2:32, Acts 2:21, 2 Peter 3:9, Deuteronomy 5:33, Matthew 4:17...

There's two principles here. Firstly, God doesn't want people to go to hell. Secondly, obedience to God is a free choice. CS Lewis goes even further and argues that the inhabitants of hell escalate their rejection of God and their increasing hatred of Him locks the gates even more tightly.

And just as hell is optional, heaven is not mandatory. You don't have to be in heaven if you don't want.

There is no such choice at all.

You're an integral feature of the biosphere. You will die and the body will break down to simpler elements. The only choice is how you judge death - as an intolerable offense against that tidbit of the brain called the ego or "I", or as an aspect of life.

 

[Treedbear]

Where is scriptual support for 'Hell is voluntary' to be found?

1 Tim 2:4, John 3:17, Matthew 22:3, Joel 2:32, Acts 2:21, 2 Peter 3:9, Deuteronomy 5:33, Matthew 4:17...

There's two principles here. Firstly, God doesn't want people to go to hell. Secondly, obedience to God is a free choice. CS Lewis goes even further and argues that the inhabitants of hell escalate their rejection of God and their increasing hatred of Him locks the gates even more tightly.

And just as hell is optional, heaven is not mandatory. You don't have to be in heaven if you don't want.

Hell is optional? How would that work? You can't get into heaven but rather than choose an eternity of perpetual suffering you could choose nothingness? Well that's a no brainer. Or is it that people get to make a choice between heaven and hell and they prefer what hell has to offer? So they would be happier in hell? Sounds like politics as usual. One person's hell is the other's heaven.

And what would be the alternative choice to heaven? Saint Peter hands you a piece of paper as says you qualify for an eternity of steak and ice cream everyday, or you get to die a second time and you're toast. Sign here. Some choice!

 

[Learner]

Where is scriptual support for 'Hell is voluntary' to be found?

1 Tim 2:4, John 3:17, Matthew 22:3, Joel 2:32, Acts 2:21, 2 Peter 3:9, Deuteronomy 5:33, Matthew 4:17...

There's two principles here. Firstly, God doesn't want people to go to hell. Secondly, obedience to God is a free choice. CS Lewis goes even further and argues that the inhabitants of hell escalate their rejection of God and their increasing hatred of Him locks the gates even more tightly.

And just as hell is optional, heaven is not mandatory. You don't have to be in heaven if you don't want.

Like er .. "I wouldn't want to live there." (It's too happy and you gotta love God, sort of thing)

 

[Learner]

So which part of "free" + "will" don't you understand?

We understand the concept, but some of are very skeptical that it exists. What don't you understand about that?

The reason I try not to be too judgmental of others is because I don't think we have much if any control over what we think, what we do or what we believe. Can you understand that?

Of course, since I too don't have much or any free will, my actions are limited by how I've been influenced by genetics and the environment. Imo, people who believe they have absolute free will often tend to be cruel and judgmental of others. They seem to think that anyone can accomplish what they have, or anyone can believe what they do, etc. People can't believe something that makes no sense to them. People are born with different potentials when it comes to intelligence, both emotional and intellectual. People are naturally skeptical or gullible enough to believe things that they are told or that they would like to be true. If we have any free will, I think it's very limited. Outside influences can sometimes change how we think to some extent but that's pretty rare when it comes to certain things that have been deeply ingrained in us.

So, you can stop with the free will nonsense, as quite a few of us don't think it exists or if it does, it's not significant.

People across the board do make judgments in everyday life. IF considering that free will is the same type of will we understand everyday, for example: someone becomes a victim, who's being held against their free will - being imposed upon, by the attackers free will. It becomes significant when the (will) effect (of the attacker) can be quite serious. If caught he goes to jail because it is considered wrong. Unless...there is a Lawyer who can argue the case, that "it's all just natural chemical reactions in the brain" and so perhaps then.. no-one will ever go to jail ever again. (not Dictatorship places obviously)