Just imagine if this was an Iranian drone strike on a Western nation

[Politesse]

Almost a third of the deaths in Afghanistan have been civilian. Just how many "mistakes" is one allowed to make before one is called to account for them? If I made a mistake that resulted in the death of one of my students, I would lose my job regardless of the circumstances. But you think there should be no consequences for the deaths of thousands of children.

And hell yes we should "surrender" the country. It's not our place to decide how another nation should be run, or by whom. We are supposedly democrats, yet we act like an autocratic empire led directly by the unchecked whims of our president when it comes to the rest of the world, something is wrong there. If the point is to preserve our "pride" I assure I am not proud of violent and counter-democratic miltary adventurism.

 

[PyramidHead]

Does anybody remember when Saudi Arabian authorities literally hacked a journalist to pieces? And now we're on the eve of war with Iran because John Bolton's parting gift was to implicate Iran in attacking a Saudi oil tanker? Fuck this narrative of caring about the lives of women or innocent people in the middle east.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Almost a third of the deaths in Afghanistan have been civilian. Just how many "mistakes" is one allowed to make before one is called to account for them? If I made a mistake that resulted in the death of one of my students, I would lose my job regardless of the circumstances. But you think there should be no consequences for the deaths of thousands of children.

And hell yes we should "surrender" the country. It's not our place to decide how another nation should be run, or by whom. We are supposedly democrats, yet we act like an autocratic empire led directly by the unchecked whims of our president when it comes to the rest of the world, something is wrong there. If the point is to preserve our "pride" I assure I am not proud of violent and counter-democratic miltary adventurism.

When your opponent deliberately uses civilians as cover expect a substantial civilian death toll. If only 1/3 are civilian we are aiming better than I expected of His Flatulence.

 

[Derec]

Almost a third of the deaths in Afghanistan have been civilian.

Have they been really? How do we know that? Especially since we are fighting against Taliban and ISIS and neither follow rules about wearing uniforms and not pretending to be civilians.

Just how many "mistakes" is one allowed to make before one is called to account for them? If I made a mistake that resulted in the death of one of my students, I would lose my job regardless of the circumstances. But you think there should be no consequences for the deaths of thousands of children.

Because being a teacher is the same as waging war.

And hell yes we should "surrender" the country. It's not our place to decide how another nation should be run, or by whom.

Even if we assume that human rights play no role, the Taliban used their territory to give Al Qaeda terrorists a safe haven.

We are supposedly democrats, yet we act like an autocratic empire led directly by the unchecked whims of our president when it comes to the rest of the world, something is wrong there. If the point is to preserve our "pride" I assure I am not proud of violent and counter-democratic miltary adventurism.

Democracy doesn't always work. Palestinians elected Hamas in 2006 for example, an actual terrorist organization.

 

[Derec]

Does anybody remember when Saudi Arabian authorities literally hacked a journalist to pieces?

I only remember when they did it to a Muslim Brotherhood propagandist.

And now we're on the eve of war with Iran because John Bolton's parting gift was to implicate Iran in attacking a Saudi oil tanker?

No, they attacked a Norwegian and a Japanese tanker, downed a US drone and bombed a Saudi oil processing plant. I know, it's difficult to keep it straight given the sheer amount of recent belligerent actions by the Iranian regime.

Fuck this narrative of caring about the lives of women or innocent people in the middle east.

Fuck this narrative that Iran should be allowed to do whatever they want in the region or that they are "good guys" just because they hate US and Israel.

 

[Derec]

You falsely equate “support for Islamic law” with “radical Islam”, because there is not widespread agreement among Moslems about what Islamic law entails.

Wanting to make Islamic Law law of the land is in itself radical. You would not have a problem assigning that label to a Christian fundy who wanted to make Biblical Law law of the land. Why do you give Muslims a pass?

 

[laughing dog]

Fuck this narrative that Iran should be allowed to do whatever they want in the region or that they are "good guys" just because they hate US and Israel.

Fuck the narrative that it is the responsibility of the US to police the behavior of Iran.

 

[Derec]

Fuck the narrative that it is the responsibility of the US to police the behavior of Iran.

Well it should really be the UN but UN has become a useless organization a long time ago.
So it's up to US. To quote Uncle Ben:

 

[laughing dog]

Fuck the narrative that it is the responsibility of the US to police the behavior of Iran.

Well it should really be the UN but UN has become a useless organization a long time ago.
So it's up to US. To quote Uncle Ben:
View attachment 23992

The UN has never had a military at its unilateral disposal. It’s purpose is to avoid war, not start them.

The US has no compelling interest in bring the Saudi’s bitch nor exposing itself and its citizens to reprisal terrorist attacks.

 

[Harry Bosch]

Almost a third of the deaths in Afghanistan have been civilian. Just how many "mistakes" is one allowed to make before one is called to account for them? If I made a mistake that resulted in the death of one of my students, I would lose my job regardless of the circumstances. But you think there should be no consequences for the deaths of thousands of children.

And hell yes we should "surrender" the country. It's not our place to decide how another nation should be run, or by whom. We are supposedly democrats, yet we act like an autocratic empire led directly by the unchecked whims of our president when it comes to the rest of the world, something is wrong there. If the point is to preserve our "pride" I assure I am not proud of violent and counter-democratic miltary adventurism.

I assume that you also supported Bill Clinton's decision to not help out in Rwanda? Yes, we need to get better at preventing civilian deaths. Yes, our efforts should be more international. We must do a better job of winning the locals. But I think that fighting for women's rights and peace is a worthy cause.

Rwanda

 

[Politesse]

Almost a third of the deaths in Afghanistan have been civilian. Just how many "mistakes" is one allowed to make before one is called to account for them? If I made a mistake that resulted in the death of one of my students, I would lose my job regardless of the circumstances. But you think there should be no consequences for the deaths of thousands of children.

And hell yes we should "surrender" the country. It's not our place to decide how another nation should be run, or by whom. We are supposedly democrats, yet we act like an autocratic empire led directly by the unchecked whims of our president when it comes to the rest of the world, something is wrong there. If the point is to preserve our "pride" I assure I am not proud of violent and counter-democratic miltary adventurism.

I assume that you also supported Bill Clinton's decision to not help out in Rwanda? Yes, we need to get better at preventing civilian deaths. Yes, our efforts should be more international. We must do a better job of winning the locals. But I think that fighting for women's rights and peace is a worthy cause.

Rwanda

Stopping a genocide? Is the same thing as tussling over oil rights? Are you out of your flipping mind?

Though I never understood why everyone bought into the narrative that US troops could have prevented the massacre anyway. We kill people, we don't save them. I mean what genocide did we ever stop before? We've certainly gotten a lot of "allies" massacred over the years.

 

[James Madison]

Evil requires intent. Like Taliban and ISIS intentionally suicide bombing civilian targets.
Taliban suicide attacks in Afghanistan leave dozens dead
Afghanistan: Bomb kills 63 at wedding in Kabul

Mistakes happen, and they are by themselves not evil.


Yes, Taliban, ISIS or Iranian theocrats all likely think they are the good guys. So what? That doesn't mean they are not qualitatively different than US.

The appearance of impropriety is sufficient for a judgement of impropriety in most ethical situations. The fact is, a shitton of farmers got murdered. It doesn't matter if it was bad Intel or a bad decision or an act of desperation by a flailing idiot. It's an ethical failing to deploy a weapon in a situation where the situation hasn't been researched.

And everyone has an obligation, if they wish to have others accept them as they see themselves, to look in the mirror and ask hard and long "AM I the villain?"

The fact that you are looking in the proverbial mirror and saying "There's certainly no villain there!" that's exactly the way a villain lives.

A mistake does not render someone or an entity a villain, and this tragic event may have been the result of human error. Neither is it shown to be a "fact" the farmers were "murdered." This is a situation in which much more information is needed to properly assess whether this tragedy was the result of human error, perhaps reckless human error, or something else.

 

[Politesse]

"Mistakes happen in war" is trite, and from the lips of an invading army, entirely unconvincing. Anyone who participates in voluntary slaughter of others is morally responsible for the deaths they cause, whether or not they "meant" to cause them. Every who is past the age of innocence themselves knows that wars take innocent lives. Declaring your intent to go to war is declaring your willingness to murder innocent people in great numbers, by logical connection. If you're the one who made the call, you are responsible for each and every one, whether or not you admit it. If you endorse war, you endorse death for many whether or not you "mean" to. If you serve in war, you will be asked to participate in the killing whether or not you "want" to.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Fuck this narrative that Iran should be allowed to do whatever they want in the region or that they are "good guys" just because they hate US and Israel.

Fuck the narrative that it is the responsibility of the US to police the behavior of Iran.

When their misbehavior becomes a problem for us then it is quite reasonable for us to attempt to control that behavior.

 

[ZiprHead]

Fuck this narrative that Iran should be allowed to do whatever they want in the region or that they are "good guys" just because they hate US and Israel.

Fuck the narrative that it is the responsibility of the US to police the behavior of Iran.

When their misbehavior becomes a problem for us then it is quite reasonable for us to attempt to control that behavior.

Be sure to let us know when that happens. I wouldn't want to miss it.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Almost a third of the deaths in Afghanistan have been civilian. Just how many "mistakes" is one allowed to make before one is called to account for them? If I made a mistake that resulted in the death of one of my students, I would lose my job regardless of the circumstances. But you think there should be no consequences for the deaths of thousands of children.

And hell yes we should "surrender" the country. It's not our place to decide how another nation should be run, or by whom. We are supposedly democrats, yet we act like an autocratic empire led directly by the unchecked whims of our president when it comes to the rest of the world, something is wrong there. If the point is to preserve our "pride" I assure I am not proud of violent and counter-democratic miltary adventurism.

I assume that you also supported Bill Clinton's decision to not help out in Rwanda? Yes, we need to get better at preventing civilian deaths. Yes, our efforts should be more international. We must do a better job of winning the locals. But I think that fighting for women's rights and peace is a worthy cause.

Rwanda

Stopping a genocide? Is the same thing as tussling over oil rights? Are you out of your flipping mind?

Though I never understood why everyone bought into the narrative that US troops could have prevented the massacre anyway. We kill people, we don't save them. I mean what genocide did we ever stop before? We've certainly gotten a lot of "allies" massacred over the years.

We couldn't have done that.

 

[Worldtraveller]

Not true... usually it is a dozen or three or four dozen tops each incident. We just have a high number of incidents. [/sarcasm]
I think in general, we are still there because if we leave, the Taliban move back in and no one wins with that.

That's not doing a poor job of being good anymore than Jeffrey Dahmer simply did a poor job of trying to add more meat to his diet. It's being fucking evil.

No, being fucking evil would be nuking Afghanistan. Being pathetic would be making a "peace deal" with the Taliban. The US has no good option in Afghanistan. US forces accidentally kill dozens while the Taliban intentionally kills hundreds. No good comes from any of it.

The US will most certainly not defeat the Taliban. Should the US let the Taliban take the nation over again?

Whether or not the Taliban are in power in Afghanistan is not the entirety of the situation in Afghanistan. We have the resources to strike at the root causes of terrorism: poverty, unemployment, hunger, ignorance and disease. But this cannot happen because the country is at the nexus of imperialism due to its oil resources, and this is the real reason we remain there.

And it would cost less to do it this way, but then the defense contractors wouldn't get their new toys.

 

[Fentoine Lum]

Almost a third of the deaths in Afghanistan have been civilian. Just how many "mistakes" is one allowed to make before one is called to account for them? If I made a mistake that resulted in the death of one of my students, I would lose my job regardless of the circumstances. But you think there should be no consequences for the deaths of thousands of children.

And hell yes we should "surrender" the country. It's not our place to decide how another nation should be run, or by whom. We are supposedly democrats, yet we act like an autocratic empire led directly by the unchecked whims of our president when it comes to the rest of the world, something is wrong there. If the point is to preserve our "pride" I assure I am not proud of violent and counter-democratic miltary adventurism.

I assume that you also supported Bill Clinton's decision to not help out in Rwanda? Yes, we need to get better at preventing civilian deaths. Yes, our efforts should be more international. We must do a better job of winning the locals. But I think that fighting for women's rights and peace is a worthy cause.

Rwanda

Stopping a genocide? Is the same thing as tussling over oil rights? Are you out of your flipping mind?

Though I never understood why everyone bought into the narrative that US troops could have prevented the massacre anyway. We kill people, we don't save them. I mean what genocide did we ever stop before? We've certainly gotten a lot of "allies" massacred over the years.

Why we're helping and supporting the Saudi genocide in Yemen even as we speak, praise Jesus.

 

[Jarhyn]

Whether or not the Taliban are in power in Afghanistan is not the entirety of the situation in Afghanistan. We have the resources to strike at the root causes of terrorism: poverty, unemployment, hunger, ignorance and disease. But this cannot happen because the country is at the nexus of imperialism due to its oil resources, and this is the real reason we remain there.

And it would cost less to do it this way, but then the defense contractors wouldn't get their new toys.

No, we couldn't do it that way. If we did, then their economy would develop to the point where they could develop their own resources and gain economic independence from oil.

 

[James Madison]

"Mistakes happen in war" is trite, and from the lips of an invading army, entirely unconvincing. Anyone who participates in voluntary slaughter of others is morally responsible for the deaths they cause, whether or not they "meant" to cause them. Every who is past the age of innocence themselves knows that wars take innocent lives. Declaring your intent to go to war is declaring your willingness to murder innocent people in great numbers, by logical connection. If you're the one who made the call, you are responsible for each and every one, whether or not you admit it. If you endorse war, you endorse death for many whether or not you "mean" to. If you serve in war, you will be asked to participate in the killing whether or not you "want" to.

A war may take an innocent life by mistake, by human error. Engaging in a war is not necessarily a "willingness to murder innocent people" in any numbers. Your argument excludes a middle ground of engaging in war with the intent to target and kill only hostiles.