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Tesla, not very green

From your article: The calculation is based on the assumption that the electricity mix used by the battery factory consists of energy generated by more than 50% fossil fuels.

I don't agree with this. Tesla also markets solar cell roofs and will surely use them to power his factories which are located in a sun environment.
 
Generating solar power doesn't equate to using solar power; If Tesla's factories are grid connected, then the power they use is only as green as the grid average - and the power they generate only reduces that average a very small amount.

The only countries that currently generate low carbon electricity are those that rely mostly on hydro and nuclear.

Wind and Solar are contributors in nations with middle-range carbon dioxide emissions per unit of energy generated; But these technologies, in current practice, always entail the use of a large amount of gas power - which is better than coal, but nowhere near the standard of nuclear and hydro.

If you want to drive a 'green' car, you need to recharge it in a place which is green on this map: https://www.electricitymap.org/?wind=false&solar=false&page=map (click on any coloured country/state to see a breakdown of where its power comes from).
 
It really wouldn't matter if Tesla automobiles ran on Pixie dust and their exhaust made an excellent espresso. A Tesla is still the same one man/4 tires transportation model. It still requires the infrastructure of OM4T, in which we have invested billions, to the point that OM4T is the only practical transportation choice.
 
Generating solar power doesn't equate to using solar power; If Tesla's factories are grid connected, tjIhen the power they use is only as green as the grid average - and the power they generate only reduces that average a very small amount.
But why would someone who makes solar cells not put them to use? Especially when the battery factory is located in a sun location. It would be stupid not to power it 100% solar and I believe I have read Elon Musk intends to do just that.
 
It really wouldn't matter if Tesla automobiles ran on Pixie dust and their exhaust made an excellent espresso. A Tesla is still the same one man/4 tires transportation model. It still requires the infrastructure of OM4T, in which we have invested billions, to the point that OM4T is the only practical transportation choice.

1M4T is a bit strong. The Tesla S seats 5. This is a true 1M4T concept:
start-lewis-hamilton-mercedes-amg-f1-w08-leads-sebastian-vettel-ferrari-sf70h-kimi-raikkonen-ferrari-sf70h-felipe-massa-williams-fw40.jpg


I hear you though: cars often have only one person in them. But the concept of individual mobility has many advantages, which is why people drive even in places with strong transit.
So while I do support more investment in transit (which lacks a lot in cities like Atlanta) I do not think we should dismiss developments in car technology either.
 
Generating solar power doesn't equate to using solar power; If Tesla's factories are grid connected, tjIhen the power they use is only as green as the grid average - and the power they generate only reduces that average a very small amount.
But why would someone who makes solar cells not put them to use? Especially when the battery factory is located in a sun location. It would be stupid not to power it 100% solar and I believe I have read Elon Musk intends to do just that.

It would be stupid to power it 100% solar, if that meant only running the plant for the about 8 hours a day when the sun produces reasonable amounts of electricity (and shutting down if it's cloudy).

And it would be even more stupid to spend a fortune on batteries, when you can buy electricity from the grid for pennies per kWh.

Just because you are manufacturing something that doesn't make it free to use - the batteries need to be sold in order for the factory to be worth having, and every battery you make and don't sell has an opportunity cost equal to the cost of buying it.

There's nothing particularly wrong with generating power from PV panels; It's less polluting than coal. But it is still very polluting, compared to other 'green' options, such as wind and nuclear; it is very expensive; and it is intermittent, so it needs something else to back it up (or to be used in an application where you don't mind only having power for about a quarter of the time - ie not a modern factory).

The backups can be very expensive batteries, or whatever is powering a much less expensive grid connection - which today is typically fossil fuel. If there's enough solar power, then it's usually combined cycle gas turbines.

'Powered by 100% solar' is a marketing slogan, but it doesn't reflect reality. The reality is that they make the same number of kWh as they use - but they make them all during the 25% of the time that everyone else is making solar power, and therefore at a time when the grid is in glut and doesn't want those kWh; and then they buy grid power when solar panels are not working (the other 75% of the time) and they buy that power at higher prices, from whatever the local grid uses - in the USA at nighttime that's, mostly gas, coal and nuclear, intermittently wind, and a little bit of hydro and a trace of geothermal power.

If some unforeseen disaster suddenly shut down all of the coal and gas plants in the US, the factory would stop production - regardless of their marketing department's claim to being 100% solar.
 
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http://climatechangedispatch.com/st...ses-as-much-co2-as-8-years-of-driving-on-gas/

Remember, the batteries don't last forever--that's probably as much CO2 from the batteries as a gas-burner would have released and that's before you count the CO2 from the electricity production.

And yet another article claiming that electric cars are "not green". It's like clockwork. The argument has some problems.

1. It relies on a specific energy mix being used. But if the battery factory uses their own solar power the issue of local power mix is moot. (RVonse already brought that one up). The article also seems to lump all fossil fuels together even though there are big differences in specific emissions between coal and natural gas.
2. It has to be remembered that this is an industry that is still early in its development cycle. Battery technology will become more efficient both in operation and manufacture, and power grid mix will evolve in the next decades. Remember, electric car technology will never become mature if we do not start with development at all. Also to remember is that ICE technology is extremely mature - modern ICE engines have been developed for about 150 years now. Incremental improvements these days require rather complex technology (such as variable valve timing for example). Major improvements are unlikely to come in the future. We need something new.
3. An electric car has a much simpler powertrain than an ICE car. The motor itself is much simpler than an engine, having only one moving part.
2013-Tesla-Model-S-motor.jpg

As opposed to:
2012-bmw-m5-engine-007.jpg

And because an electric motor has excellent torque/power response vs. rpm, most electric cars (including Teslas) have an incredibly simple fixed-ratio single-speed transmission (think fixed gear bikes) as opposed to complex transmissions cars Tesla S competes with have (think 24 speed Shimanos to keep with the bicycle analogy). For example, the automatic transmission in the new Mercedes E-class has whopping 9 gears. It takes a lot more energy to make these more complex components vs. their much simpler EV equivalents.
An electric car can also dispense with the exhaust (including catalytic converter and muffler) and other components. Any serious comparison of CO2 emissions would have to consider the difference in making non-battery components of the car, and compare like with like, i.e. Tesla with its competitors (performance sedans) and Nissan Leaf with its (compact car).
4. Because it is so much simpler and runs on low temps, EV motors do not need frequent part changes compared to their ICE cousins. In 8 years, an ICE car would have ~24 oil changes, go through one or two lead-acid batteries, and will have to get a few of its sensors (for example oxygen sensors) replaced. A new catalytic converter or some other parts may be needed as well, perhaps even a transmission rebuild (expensive both in terms of money and energy if you have a fancy 9G-Tronic). All these things cost energy and should have been considered vs. the energy cost of the battery.

5. While energy use and CO2 emissions are certainly important they are not everything. Air pollution is a big deal, as could be seen from the VW diesel cheating scandal. As is pollution of soil and water through fluid leaks and spills. EVs do not use liquid fuels or engine oil or coolant. We should not neglect these advantages.
 
Rubber, steel, plastic, etc.

I'm a big fan of green energy, and continued strides in reducing the emissions of cars is necessary, but the benefits relative to liquid dinosaur burners ain't all that great.
 
Stick to this stuff Derec, give the identity politics stuff a bit of a respite.
 
Electric cars are a step in the right direction; as is replacing coal power with gas power.

But to pretend that either reaches the standard of being 'green' is overstating the case. Which is fine for marketing, but it's shithouse for the environment.
 
Generating solar power doesn't equate to using solar power; If Tesla's factories are grid connected, then the power they use is only as green as the grid average - and the power they generate only reduces that average a very small amount.
No it is not. If the plant mostly runs on the power it generates itself, then their own power mix is very different from the grid mix.

The only countries that currently generate low carbon electricity are those that rely mostly on hydro and nuclear.
France is a good example of relying on nuclear, which I support.

Wind and Solar are contributors in nations with middle-range carbon dioxide emissions per unit of energy generated; But these technologies, in current practice, always entail the use of a large amount of gas power - which is better than coal, but nowhere near the standard of nuclear and hydro.
Large hydro plants are limited by geography and best locations such as Niagara Falls or Hoover Dam were snatched a long time ago.
Nuclear unfortunately has high political opposition.

But the biggest advantage of solar is that PV solar can be installed at point of use, without having to use any net space by utilizing existing surfaces like roofs. That would reduce the need to schlep power 100s of miles from a central power plant. Yes, you need to invest in storage, but TANSTAAFL. Also, with solar highest generation is during daytime when most power is used as well, especially when it's hot and A/Cs are running.

If you want to drive a 'green' car, you need to recharge it in a place which is green on this map: https://www.electricitymap.org/?wind=false&solar=false&page=map (click on any coloured country/state to see a breakdown of where its power comes from).

And this is a moving target. Power mix will tend greener over the next decades. But you have to start electrification of cars with the grid we have, not the grid we want. ;)
 
No it is not. If the plant mostly runs on the power it generates itself, then their own power mix is very different from the grid mix.
Perhaps; But no modern factory mostly runs on solar power it generates itself, because solar has a capacity factor well below 50%

In fact, solar has a capacity factor of about 23%. And the '100%' solar claim from the marketing boys means that they are actually generating more than 4x the power they use at peak insolation, and are selling it to the grid, which changes the grid mix. And then they buy power back the other 77% of the time, at the grid mix during times of low insolation.

The overall result is a wash - they use electricity that is, on average, generated according to the 'new' grid mix - that is, the grid mix after adding in the new contribution from solar represented by the panels on the factory roof.

It's better than nothing; But it's far from 'green', unless the grid mix is green to begin with.

If you want a 'green' factory, build it in France, Sweden, Ontario, or Norway. Or lobby for your local power companies to replace coal and gas plants with nuclear and (if there is a suitable site) hydro. And put solar panels on it if you like - but be aware that they are expensive, and highly polluting at both ends of their life-cycle.

Battery storage is not only not a free lunch; It's a massively expensive lunch that is served in tiny portions. Maybe it will get cheaper. But it needs to cost less than 1% of what it costs today if it is to compete with CCGTs; Until that happens, wind and solar power will just lead to the burning of more gas.
 
The report shows that battery manufacturing leads to high emissions. For each kilowatt-hour of storage capacity in the battery, emissions of 150 to 200 kilograms of carbon dioxide are generated in the factory
Interesting, calculating how much electricity 200kg of CO2 can get you:
12./(32+12)*200.*33e6*0.5/3.6e6 = 250 kwh
Lithium Ion typically last 500 cycles so it barely makes sense to buy battery to store energy from PV.
They need to literally use PV panels on their factories.

Also reminded me of Tesla marketing their wall batteries for home use. They use the same batteries as in their car when in reality lithium-phosphate is certainly more suited for home use because they can be cycled 2000 times, cost less and not flammable (!!!) they are just heavier than ordinary lithium-ion.
So Musk is not averse to bullshitting his followers.
 
It really wouldn't matter if Tesla automobiles ran on Pixie dust and their exhaust made an excellent espresso. A Tesla is still the same one man/4 tires transportation model. It still requires the infrastructure of OM4T, in which we have invested billions, to the point that OM4T is the only practical transportation choice.

1M4T is a bit strong. The Tesla S seats 5. This is a true 1M4T concept:
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I hear you though: cars often have only one person in them. But the concept of individual mobility has many advantages, which is why people drive even in places with strong transit.
So while I do support more investment in transit (which lacks a lot in cities like Atlanta) I do not think we should dismiss developments in car technology either.

I spent most of my working life in the car business, so I understand individual mobility. If we want to have a 1M4T system, we expect our government to build an all weather paved road from our door, to wherever we want to drive. That's fair enough, but we also expect 200 square feet of real estate to be reserved for our car, in whatever place we want to go. For a business with 20 employees, that is 4000 square feet of concrete, plus more if customers are expected to show up. This means the business can only cater to employees and customers who can afford a car.

I'm old enough to have witnessed the decline and decay of my city's downtown area. Suburban malls and suburban housing developments took residents and commerce away, so small businesses could not survive. Whenever someone wanted to make use of the cheap downtown real estate, the problem was always parking. Mass transit, as a viable alternative to a car, simply does not exist. That is by design, for many reasons, but it is reality.

In a world with finite resources, there isn't enough money to build two parallel infrastructures. We can't provide a road from here to there, with parking space at both ends for everyone, and an efficient mass transit system at the same time.

A Tesla is a fine car, but its market is people whose economic situation gives them many choices. The infrastructure which makes the Tesla an attractive way to get around, limits the choice of people less well off. Their only choice is to get a car. Which car, is immaterial. A large part of their income goes to pay for the car that gets them to their job, which they have to have to make money to pay for the car.
 
Basic reason would suggest a $100,000 sports car is not an environmentally friendly car. An environmentally friendly car is going to look like something somewhere between a 1992 geo metro and a motorcycle. Teslas are toys for rich people.
 
It really wouldn't matter if Tesla automobiles ran on Pixie dust and their exhaust made an excellent espresso. A Tesla is still the same one man/4 tires transportation model. It still requires the infrastructure of OM4T, in which we have invested billions, to the point that OM4T is the only practical transportation choice.

I think it is an artifact of symbolic American Freedom. The automobile. Especially people that grew up in the 50's... but pretty much even to this day... The car is a symbol of personal freedom. Cars are not merely transportation devices... they are symbols of freedom, masculinity, wealth, and power.
 
It really wouldn't matter if Tesla automobiles ran on Pixie dust and their exhaust made an excellent espresso. A Tesla is still the same one man/4 tires transportation model. It still requires the infrastructure of OM4T, in which we have invested billions, to the point that OM4T is the only practical transportation choice.

I think it is an artifact of symbolic American Freedom. The automobile. Especially people that grew up in the 50's... but pretty much even to this day... The car is a symbol of personal freedom. Cars are not merely transportation devices... they are symbols of freedom, masculinity, wealth, and power.

In the USA we allow women to drive, and cars are popular with them too.
 
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