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Greece, what the fuck?

 
 
 
dismal said:
It seems like they have figured out one reasonable rule: don't give your money to Greece.
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Insane lending as has been happening should be avoided.

And the banks that did the lending with no real plan for economic growth, instead a plan for economic collapse, should pay the price for their bad lending, not Greece.
 
untermensche said:
dismal said:
It seems like they have figured out one reasonable rule: don't give your money to Greece.
Click to expand...

Insane lending as has been happening should be avoided.

And the banks that did the lending with no real plan for economic growth, instead a plan for economic collapse, should pay the price for their bad lending, not Greece.
Click to expand...

At this points I worry you have no clue what is actually going on in Greece. "Lenders" -- in the traditional sense of people who want to make a profit by lending money -- are long gone from the picture. They have taken their losses and left. Greece is now attempting to get more funds from governments and quasi-governments who would rank getting paid back on previous loans pretty far down the list. Their concerns over domestic politics and concerns over precedents set within the Eurozone are dictating their behavior far more than worries over getting paid back for their previous charitable undertakings, let alone the future charity Greece is asking for while giving them the middle finger.

Perhaps you can weave some of this reality into your future posts.
 
ksen said:
Axulus said:
Are we to believe that debt is so destructive that any attempt to pay it down sends an economy into an inescapable downward spiral? In that case, taking on any debt is a slow form of suicide.
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It's not the debt itself that's destructive. It's the severe austerity that makes it even liklier it can't be paid back that is destructive in this case.
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The debt becomes destructive when you can't afford the interest payments. That's the situation Greece is in.
 
They could afford the interest payments before the Eurozone imposed turbo-austerity.
 
ksen said:
They could afford the interest payments before the Eurozone imposed turbo-austerity.
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They could afford the interest payments as long as someone was willing to lend them the money to pay the interest payments.
 
Piketty: When I hear the Germans say that they maintain a very moral stance about debt and strongly believe that debts must be repaid, then I think: what a huge joke! Germany is the country that has never repaid its debts. It has no standing to lecture other nations.

ZEIT: Are you trying to depict states that don’t pay back their debts as winners?

Piketty: Germany is just such a state. But wait: history shows us two ways for an indebted state to leave delinquency. One was demonstrated by the British Empire in the 19th century after its expensive wars with Napoleon. It is the slow method that is now being recommended to Greece. The Empire repaid its debts through strict budgetary discipline. This worked, but it took an extremely long time. For over 100 years, the British gave up two to three percent of their economy to repay its debts, which was more than they spent on schools and education. That didn’t have to happen, and it shouldn’t happen today. The second method is much faster. Germany proved it in the 20th century. Essentially, it consists of three components: inflation, a special tax on private wealth, and debt relief.

ZEIT: So you’re telling us that the German Wirtschaftswunder [“economic miracle”] was based on the same kind of debt relief that we deny Greece today?

Piketty: Exactly. After the war ended in 1945, Germany’s debt amounted to over 200% of its GDP. Ten years later, little of that remained: public debt was less than 20% of GDP. Around the same time, France managed a similarly artful turnaround. We never would have managed this unbelievably fast reduction in debt through the fiscal discipline that we today recommend to Greece. Instead, both of our states employed the second method with the three components that I mentioned, including debt relief. Think about the London Debt Agreement of 1953, where 60% of German foreign debt was cancelled and its internal debts were restructured.
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English version was posted here but was taken down and is awaiting permission from DIE ZEIT to put it back up.

Here is the original german version.

Lot's of good stuff in there with evidence that the rest of the Eurozone are being a bunch of hypocrites when it comes to Greece debt.
 
dismal said:
ksen said:
They could afford the interest payments before the Eurozone imposed turbo-austerity.
Click to expand...

They could afford the interest payments as long as someone was willing to lend them the money to pay the interest payments.
Click to expand...

No, they would have been able to afford the interest payments just fine on their own.
 
ksen said:
Piketty: When I hear the Germans say that they maintain a very moral stance about debt and strongly believe that debts must be repaid, then I think: what a huge joke! Germany is the country that has never repaid its debts. It has no standing to lecture other nations.

ZEIT: Are you trying to depict states that don’t pay back their debts as winners?

Piketty: Germany is just such a state. But wait: history shows us two ways for an indebted state to leave delinquency. One was demonstrated by the British Empire in the 19th century after its expensive wars with Napoleon. It is the slow method that is now being recommended to Greece. The Empire repaid its debts through strict budgetary discipline. This worked, but it took an extremely long time. For over 100 years, the British gave up two to three percent of their economy to repay its debts, which was more than they spent on schools and education. That didn’t have to happen, and it shouldn’t happen today. The second method is much faster. Germany proved it in the 20th century. Essentially, it consists of three components: inflation, a special tax on private wealth, and debt relief.

ZEIT: So you’re telling us that the German Wirtschaftswunder [“economic miracle”] was based on the same kind of debt relief that we deny Greece today?

Piketty: Exactly. After the war ended in 1945, Germany’s debt amounted to over 200% of its GDP. Ten years later, little of that remained: public debt was less than 20% of GDP. Around the same time, France managed a similarly artful turnaround. We never would have managed this unbelievably fast reduction in debt through the fiscal discipline that we today recommend to Greece. Instead, both of our states employed the second method with the three components that I mentioned, including debt relief. Think about the London Debt Agreement of 1953, where 60% of German foreign debt was cancelled and its internal debts were restructured.
Click to expand...

English version was posted here but was taken down and is awaiting permission from DIE ZEIT to put it back up.

Here is the original german version.

Lot's of good stuff in there with evidence that the rest of the Eurozone are being a bunch of hypocrites when it comes to Greece debt.
Click to expand...

Just like the Germans. Never give credit when credit is due. All that was missing in that little miracle is credit to Germany receiving the benefit of America's Marshall Plan for Europe and Japan.
 
dismal said:
untermensche said:
Insane lending as has been happening should be avoided.

And the banks that did the lending with no real plan for economic growth, instead a plan for economic collapse, should pay the price for their bad lending, not Greece.
Click to expand...

At this points I worry you have no clue what is actually going on in Greece. "Lenders" -- in the traditional sense of people who want to make a profit by lending money -- are long gone from the picture. They have taken their losses and left. Greece is now attempting to get more funds from governments and quasi-governments who would rank getting paid back on previous loans pretty far down the list. Their concerns over domestic politics and concerns over precedents set within the Eurozone are dictating their behavior far more than worries over getting paid back for their previous charitable undertakings, let alone the future charity Greece is asking for while giving them the middle finger.

Perhaps you can weave some of this reality into your future posts.
Click to expand...

They have not taken their money and left.

They are first in line to get paid back.

And there has been no Keynesian spending going on so forcing the Greeks to pay back lenders first is just a recipe for collapse, as we have seen.

The Greeks have done everything required of them for years.

And it destroyed their economy as people like Stiglitz and Krugman predicted long ago. If only we had listened to them from the beginning. We should start listening to them now and not the so-called leaders in Europe that don't have a clue.
 
untermensche said:
dismal said:
At this points I worry you have no clue what is actually going on in Greece. "Lenders" -- in the traditional sense of people who want to make a profit by lending money -- are long gone from the picture. They have taken their losses and left. Greece is now attempting to get more funds from governments and quasi-governments who would rank getting paid back on previous loans pretty far down the list. Their concerns over domestic politics and concerns over precedents set within the Eurozone are dictating their behavior far more than worries over getting paid back for their previous charitable undertakings, let alone the future charity Greece is asking for while giving them the middle finger.

Perhaps you can weave some of this reality into your future posts.
Click to expand...

They have not taken their money and left.

They are first in line to get paid back.

And there has been no Keynesian spending going on so forcing the Greeks to pay back lenders first is just a recipe for collapse, as we have seen.

The Greeks have done everything required of them for years.

And it destroyed their economy as people like Stiglitz and Krugman predicted long ago. If only we had listened to them from the beginning. We should start listening to them now and not the so-called leaders in Europe that don't have a clue.
Click to expand...

LOL @ your version of reality.

If there are plenty of willing lenders why doesn't Greece go all Keynsey wid it?

What do you imagine is stopping them?
 
Greeks apologise with huge horse

Left outside the European Central Bank in the dead of night, the horse has now been moved into the ECB’s central lobby where it is proudly on display.

A gift tag attached to the horse, which is surprisingly light for its size and has small holes along the length of its body, suggested that it should be placed in the bank’s vaults overnight to avoid it being targeted by thieves.
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http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/international/greeks-apologise-with-huge-horse-2012051527146
 
untermensche said:
Insane lending as has been happening should be avoided. And the banks that did the lending with no real plan for economic growth, instead a plan for economic collapse, should pay the price for their bad lending, not Greece.
Click to expand...
How are banks suppose to create "a plan for economic growth"?
 
untermensche said:
They have not taken their money and left. They are first in line to get paid back. And there has been no Keynesian spending going on so forcing the Greeks to pay back lenders first is just a recipe for collapse, as we have seen. The Greeks have done everything required of them for years. And it destroyed their economy as people like Stiglitz and Krugman predicted long ago. If only we had listened to them from the beginning. We should start listening to them now and not the so-called leaders in Europe that don't have a clue.
Click to expand...
Its not that the entire world is against Stig and Krugman. It's more that no one is willing to finance Greece's "kensian spending". Regardless, everyone knew that Greece would eventually default.
 
SimpleDon said:
What has to happen is for the troika to find some face saving way to write down the debt that Greece owes. The Greeks could issue special Greek repayment bonds paying no interest and with no fixed term for most of the debt that the troika would buy. They would use the money to pay off the majority of the outstanding debt. It would be understood that the Greeks won't ever pay off the special bonds of course.

It is important for the Greeks to be able to get their economy running well again. The Greek economy has shrunk by 25% from the financial crisis and the subsequent austerity trying to pay off this debt, 17% of the decrease due to the austerity inflicted by the troika. It should be obvious to everyone now that the austerity isn't working, that the economy keeps shrinking and the debt keeps growing as a percentage of GDP. This means that the debt becomes harder to pay off, not easier.
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This is unworkable and the payoff schemes keep the economy shrinking. The votes are counted and it looks like the majority of Greeks don't want to play any more monopoly. The question now is can they play another game that will work.
 
SimpleDon said:
What has to happen is for the troika to find some face saving way to write down the debt that Greece owes. The Greeks could issue special Greek repayment bonds paying no interest and with no fixed term for most of the debt that the troika would buy. They would use the money to pay off the majority of the outstanding debt. It would be understood that the Greeks won't ever pay off the special bonds of course.

It is important for the Greeks to be able to get their economy running well again. The Greek economy has shrunk by 25% from the financial crisis and the subsequent austerity trying to pay off this debt, 17% of the decrease due to the austerity inflicted by the troika. It should be obvious to everyone now that the austerity isn't working, that the economy keeps shrinking and the debt keeps growing as a percentage of GDP. This means that the debt becomes harder to pay off, not easier.
Click to expand...

This is unworkable and the payoff schemes keep the economy shrinking. The votes are counted and it looks like the majority of Greeks don't want to play any more monopoly. The question now is can they play another game that will work. Abusive loans need to be cancelled and perhaps the abusers should take a haircut. If they don't like that, then perhaps the Greeks will have to journey again into the land of democratic innovation...:thinking:
 
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