Physicalism

[Juma]

Okay, but now we are back to a thought about truth being an electrical pattern instead of a thought about truth.

the electrical pattern is the thought.
formally everything you think is based upon neural activity.

Okay, then 2 + 2 = 4 is not a mathematical truth; it's neural activity. Around we go.

blah, "mathematical truth" ( whatever you mean, you brought it up and then ask me what it means...)
I said "mathematical truth" is a category, it is neural activity. BOTH
if there was no life in the universe would there be a mind?

If there is both, and only one of them is physical, then what is the other?

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Okay, but now we are back to a thought about truth being an electrical pattern instead of a thought about truth.

the electrical pattern is the thought.
formally everything you think is based upon neural activity.

Okay, then 2 + 2 = 4 is not a mathematical truth; it's neural activity. Around we go.

You constantly look in the wrong direction. The thing with stuff that you think is "immaterial" is that they live in time and structure rather than position. The mathematical truth is the behavior of processes that follows/uses/ adheres to them.

The truth is in what happens when we use them.

This is also true of "intention" and "meaning" etc: the meaning of a symbol is what happens when you are exposed to it.

The "intention" of an action is what we expects to happen when we perform it.

Please read my fist post to none a few posts ago.

Not until you explain why.

 

[Juma]

Do properties (not concepts) exist outside of our brains?

The moon is a concept. Does the moon exist outside out brain?

 

[ryan]

You constantly look in the wrong direction. The thing with stuff that you think is "immaterial" is that they live in time and structure rather than position. The mathematical truth is the behavior of processes that follows/uses/ adheres to them.

The truth is in what happens when we use them.

This is also true of "intention" and "meaning" etc: the meaning of a symbol is what happens when you are exposed to it.

The "intention" of an action is what we expects to happen when we perform it.

Please read my fist post to none a few posts ago.

Not until you explain why.

When it comes to the mind, I am convinced that our arguments merge. As far as I know, you and I both believe in qualia. You and I are in a different battle.

 

[ryan]

Do properties (not concepts) exist outside of our brains?

The moon is a concept. Does the moon exist outside out brain?

I am shocked that you won't answer my question with no explanation as to why. Is your refusal to discuss properties your way of telling me that you no longer think they exist, or what's the problem?

To show good faith, my answer to you question is "no".

 

[Juma]

You constantly look in the wrong direction. The thing with stuff that you think is "immaterial" is that they live in time and structure rather than position. The mathematical truth is the behavior of processes that follows/uses/ adheres to them.

The truth is in what happens when we use them.

This is also true of "intention" and "meaning" etc: the meaning of a symbol is what happens when you are exposed to it.

The "intention" of an action is what we expects to happen when we perform it.

Please read my fist post to none a few posts ago.

Not until you explain why.

When it comes to the mind, I am convinced that our arguments merge. As far as I know, you and I both believe in qualia. You and I are in a different battle.

Believe in qualia? Dont think so. i'm not sure what such a belief would consist of.

 

[Juma]

Do properties (not concepts) exist outside of our brains?

The moon is a concept. Does the moon exist outside out brain?

I am shocked that you won't answer my question with no explanation as to why. Is your refusal to discuss properties your way of telling me that you no longer think they exist, or what's the problem?

To show good faith, my answer to you question is "no".

??? My post was an answer. But somehow you failed to read it as the retorical question it is:

That the moon exist (that is, that that that is referenced by the concept "moon" exists outside the brain) is beyond any doubt.

How can you say "no"? That doesnt make sense.

 

[Underseer]

Do properties (not concepts) exist outside of our brains?

The moon is a concept. Does the moon exist outside out brain?

I am shocked that you won't answer my question with no explanation as to why. Is your refusal to discuss properties your way of telling me that you no longer think they exist, or what's the problem?

To show good faith, my answer to you question is "no".

??? My post was an answer. But somehow you failed to read it as the retorical question it is:

That the moon exist (that is, that that that is referenced by the concept "moon" exists outside the brain) is beyond any doubt.

How can you say "no"? That doesnt make sense.

Because it's not beyond any doubt.

Everything you understand about the world around you has to pass through several filters: your senses which can be inaccurate, language which applies its own distortions to ideas, and then your mind itself which is prone to a large variety of cognitive biases. So the world might be real but you're wrong about the moon (highly unlikely, but possible), or none of reality is real in which case the moon is also not real. That's the limitation of evidence-based epistemologies.

 

[Underseer]

You constantly look in the wrong direction. The thing with stuff that you think is "immaterial" is that they live in time and structure rather than position. The mathematical truth is the behavior of processes that follows/uses/ adheres to them.

The truth is in what happens when we use them.

This is also true of "intention" and "meaning" etc: the meaning of a symbol is what happens when you are exposed to it.

The "intention" of an action is what we expects to happen when we perform it.

Please read my fist post to none a few posts ago.

Not until you explain why.

When it comes to the mind, I am convinced that our arguments merge. As far as I know, you and I both believe in qualia. You and I are in a different battle.

Believe in qualia? Dont think so. i'm not sure what such a belief would consist of.

Qualia are those internal observations that can be absolutely true for you, but since we can't ever prove them to other people, they're pretty meaningless as far as I'm concerned.

 

[ryan]

You constantly look in the wrong direction. The thing with stuff that you think is "immaterial" is that they live in time and structure rather than position. The mathematical truth is the behavior of processes that follows/uses/ adheres to them.

The truth is in what happens when we use them.

This is also true of "intention" and "meaning" etc: the meaning of a symbol is what happens when you are exposed to it.

The "intention" of an action is what we expects to happen when we perform it.

Please read my fist post to none a few posts ago.

Not until you explain why.

When it comes to the mind, I am convinced that our arguments merge. As far as I know, you and I both believe in qualia. You and I are in a different battle.

Believe in qualia? Dont think so. i'm not sure what such a belief would consist of.

Ummm, sorry, but I know you seemed to a few months ago.

Are qualia inside of the 5m x 5m x 5m isolated chamber that Joe experiences pain in?

Absolutely.

This is from post #226 of my "Question for Physicalists" thread, http://www.freeratio.org/showthread.php?t=329846&page=10 .

 

[ryan]

Do properties (not concepts) exist outside of our brains?

The moon is a concept. Does the moon exist outside out brain?

I am shocked that you won't answer my question with no explanation as to why. Is your refusal to discuss properties your way of telling me that you no longer think they exist, or what's the problem?

To show good faith, my answer to you question is "no".

??? My post was an answer. But somehow you failed to read it as the retorical question it is:

That the moon exist (that is, that that that is referenced by the concept "moon" exists outside the brain) is beyond any doubt.

So is your answer yes or no? Please be more direct because this form of communication is very limited. They say that 70% of communication face to face is done beyond the words that we say. So we have to be clear.

How can you say "no"? That doesnt make sense.

I took your post to mean something else. If the Moon is a concept, then I don't believe that it exists outside of the brain. But I do believe that what "Moon" represents exists outside of our brains, of course. I thought that you were talking about the concept of the Moon.

 

[Juma]

Do properties (not concepts) exist outside of our brains?

The moon is a concept. Does the moon exist outside out brain?

I am shocked that you won't answer my question with no explanation as to why. Is your refusal to discuss properties your way of telling me that you no longer think they exist, or what's the problem?

To show good faith, my answer to you question is "no".

??? My post was an answer. But somehow you failed to read it as the retorical question it is:

That the moon exist (that is, that that that is referenced by the concept "moon" exists outside the brain) is beyond any doubt.

So is your answer yes or no? Please be more direct because this form of communication is very limited. They say that 70% of communication face to face is done beyond the words that we say. So we have to be clear.

How can you say "no"? That doesnt make sense.

I took your post to mean something else. If the Moon is a concept, then I don't believe that it exists outside of the brain. But I do believe that what "Moon" represents exists outside of our brains, of course. I thought that you were talking about the concept of the Moon.

Good. Now you understand what I'm saying.

So in the same manner:

Containment is a concept. Does containment exist "outside the brain"?

 

[Juma]

You constantly look in the wrong direction. The thing with stuff that you think is "immaterial" is that they live in time and structure rather than position. The mathematical truth is the behavior of processes that follows/uses/ adheres to them.

The truth is in what happens when we use them.

This is also true of "intention" and "meaning" etc: the meaning of a symbol is what happens when you are exposed to it.

The "intention" of an action is what we expects to happen when we perform it.

Please read my fist post to none a few posts ago.

Not until you explain why.

When it comes to the mind, I am convinced that our arguments merge. As far as I know, you and I both believe in qualia. You and I are in a different battle.

Believe in qualia? Dont think so. i'm not sure what such a belief would consist of.

Ummm, sorry, but I know you seemed to a few months ago.

Are qualia inside of the 5m x 5m x 5m isolated chamber that Joe experiences pain in?

Absolutely.

This is from post #226 of my "Question for Physicalists" thread, http://www.freeratio.org/showthread.php?t=329846&page=10 .

Qualia is a term used to describe something in our experience of awareness.

I have no idea what you mean by "belief in qualia".

 

[ryan]

Do properties (not concepts) exist outside of our brains?

The moon is a concept. Does the moon exist outside out brain?

I am shocked that you won't answer my question with no explanation as to why. Is your refusal to discuss properties your way of telling me that you no longer think they exist, or what's the problem?

To show good faith, my answer to you question is "no".

??? My post was an answer. But somehow you failed to read it as the retorical question it is:

That the moon exist (that is, that that that is referenced by the concept "moon" exists outside the brain) is beyond any doubt.

So is your answer yes or no? Please be more direct because this form of communication is very limited. They say that 70% of communication face to face is done beyond the words that we say. So we have to be clear.

How can you say "no"? That doesnt make sense.

I took your post to mean something else. If the Moon is a concept, then I don't believe that it exists outside of the brain. But I do believe that what "Moon" represents exists outside of our brains, of course. I thought that you were talking about the concept of the Moon.

Good. Now you understand what I'm saying.

So in the same manner:

Containment is a concept. Does containment exist "outside the brain"?

Well if I didn't think that the concept of the Moon exists outside of the brain, you can probably guess what I think about the concept of containment.

Now that I have answered you questions, would it be too much to ask for you to answer mine. Do you think that properties exist outside of the brain?

 

[Juma]

Do properties (not concepts) exist outside of our brains?

The moon is a concept. Does the moon exist outside out brain?

I am shocked that you won't answer my question with no explanation as to why. Is your refusal to discuss properties your way of telling me that you no longer think they exist, or what's the problem?

To show good faith, my answer to you question is "no".

??? My post was an answer. But somehow you failed to read it as the retorical question it is:

That the moon exist (that is, that that that is referenced by the concept "moon" exists outside the brain) is beyond any doubt.

So is your answer yes or no? Please be more direct because this form of communication is very limited. They say that 70% of communication face to face is done beyond the words that we say. So we have to be clear.

How can you say "no"? That doesnt make sense.

I took your post to mean something else. If the Moon is a concept, then I don't believe that it exists outside of the brain. But I do believe that what "Moon" represents exists outside of our brains, of course. I thought that you were talking about the concept of the Moon.

Good. Now you understand what I'm saying.

So in the same manner:

Containment is a concept. Does containment exist "outside the brain"?

Well if I didn't think that the concept of the Moon exists outside of the brain, you can probably guess what I think about the concept of containment.

Now that I have answered you questions, would it be too much to ask for you to answer mine. Do you think that properties exist outside of the brain?

But for fucks sake! Could you please formulate a question where you actually specifies what you mean. You cant just ask if "properties" exist outside of the brain since that word has multiple meanings.

 

[Kharakov]

Does the brain exist outside of or inside the brain?

More to the point: do multiple "I's" exist outside (or inside) of your "I"? At what point does something have existence as an "I" other than your "I" within your body (self)?

 

[none]

...
The problem is that your statement along with any other statement would be nothing other than electrical impulses. Paradoxically, this is false if you are right.

I don't see the paradox, maybe what you are getting at is that somehow thoughts are changed into information is the paradox?
I dunno. and I am not really shakespear so I might bow out of the conversation...

 

[ryan]

...
The problem is that your statement along with any other statement would be nothing other than electrical impulses. Paradoxically, this is false if you are right.

I don't see the paradox, maybe what you are getting at is that somehow thoughts are changed into information is the paradox?
I dunno. and I am not really shakespear so I might bow out of the conversation...

This is a paradox only if I am correct about my argument; I jumped the gun. The real argument is whether or not I am correct.

What sucked me into this debate was my own intuition about qualia (conscious experiences such as seeing red or feeling pain) existing as something other than the physical processes that it works in tandem with. This problem is still not universally solved.

If you need help with understanding certain philosophies, go to http://plato.stanford.edu/index.html . It is much better than Wikipedia.

 

[none]

whatever.

 

[Togo]

How does the concept of the Moon exist only inside your brain, and yet the same concept appears in everyone else's brain as well?

Or to put it another way, if I publish a study, the concepts of which exist only in my head, and you read it, so the concept is now in your head, how did the concept get from your head to my head without travelling the intervening distance?

 

[ryan]

How does the concept of the Moon exist only inside your brain, and yet the same concept appears in everyone else's brain as well?

Or to put it another way, if I publish a study, the concepts of which exist only in my head, and you read it, so the concept is now in your head, how did the concept get from your head to my head without travelling the intervening distance?

I am not sure who you are asking this to, but I will admit that I don't have a strong grasp on all of this. There are good arguments on each side of the physical versus non-physical topic.

There could be an argument that energy from the Moon enters the brain then combines with something else in the brain that gives us what we call a concept. As an analogy, parts go into a factory, and then there is a car in the factory.