• Welcome to the Internet Infidels Discussion Board.

Physicalism

Okay, so is the thought 2 + 2 = 4 a mathematical truth, or is it process A in the brain?
both
Since we can probably both agree that process A is physical, what then is the mathematical truth?
who cares, i'd say it is a category... a thought derived from processes within the brain.

So then what exactly is this derivation of a physical process? You realise that this sounds much like duality, don't you?
 
Okay, so is the thought 2 + 2 = 4 a mathematical truth, or is it process A in the brain?
both
Since we can probably both agree that process A is physical, what then is the mathematical truth?
who cares, i'd say it is a category... a thought derived from processes within the brain.

So then what exactly is this derivation of a physical process? You realise that this sounds much like duality, don't you?
expression, I guess the only answer that seems reasonable is expression... expression of a thought.
now to clear things up a bit, I don't think a thought is some element that doesn't reside in the brain.
from what I know a thought is completely dependent upon the brain and is an electrical pattern within the brain.
maybe derived wasn't the best thing to write.
 
You believe you are nothing but a robot. But take a minute to realize that you are not a robot, and what makes you not a robot is what you are failing to see.
You underestimate robots. Why?

You are what is left over after the robot is accounted for, and it is not material.
Ha, ha. I agree that there are thing we dont know yet, but why do you postulate that there must be something "not material"? I am also qurious on how this "non material" explains anything? It is just another "god of the gaps".
 
The absence of proof is not proof. The inability to reduce mind to material processes means that we cannot assert that mind is material. It is reasonable, therefore, to consider other options.

What is 'proof?' The fact remains that an absence of evidence to support a belief or a proposition is evidence against the validity of that belief or proposition. Without evidential support, you have no case. You not only have no case, you have no justification for your belief. Without evidence, what you are left with is faith. All you have is faith in the reality of an undefinable entity you call non material mind.

I have answered your last question numerous times already. If you can't figure it out, that is your problem.
Your 'answer' explains nothing whatsoever about non material mind. Certainly nothing whatsoever on the nature of non material things. You simply repeat the same assertions.


The mind is the most obvious thing in the world. It appears to be non-material. The fact that we cannot explain as material makes it reasonable to assume that it is not even though we can't be certain that we never will.

It ''appears to be non material?' How the hell would you know how it appears? Have you thoroughly examined mind at work, and came to that conclusion based on your observational evidence? Have you submitted a paper on your discovery?


No it is NOT! I have responded to this before, and all you do is repeat your logical errors.

The logical error here is yours. Don't you understand the logical error of making unfounded assertions and claiming they are facts? Neuroscience does not support non material mind. Do some homework in a field other than new age philosophy and religion.

The visual cortex, for example, provides a stream of visual images representing the data it receives via the optic nerve, simularly auditory thalamus, superior temporal gyrus, etc, provide an auditory representation of pressure waves, hearing... other structures represent tactile information, emotions, feelings, thoughts, etc...all of these and more are the aspects and facets of consciousness, inputs from various regions of the brain.


1) Not all neural processes produce consciousness
2) The neural process of consciousness is the physical process of neurotransmitters, chemical bonding, nerve impulses.
3) Consciousness is a representation of neural activity.


The correlation between brain activity and subjective states may indicate that the brain activity causes those mental states (though it doesn't necessarily prove that they do. Correlation does not prove causation). But even if physical processes cause mental states, it doesn't prove that they ARE mental states.

There is no evidence for anything else. There is no evidence to support or even suggest a non material entity at work in the brain. Therefore your proposal remains completely unfounded.
Now, I suppose you can go on denying this, but you will be wrong because, logically speaking, a cannot be not a. You denying that fact does not change it.

There is nothing there to deny. Without evidence to support non material mind, it is you who is pushing an unfounded belief. A faith based belief.

Again: what is this ''non material?'' How does it interact with material processes? It's not an explanation to ''thoughts are non material'' as this is an assertion that tells us nothing about the nature ''non material'' or how it is supposed to interact with the physical world, which is material. Can you see your problem?



When you've asked for an example of a non-material substance I have responded with examples such as "your own thoughts," and you had the temerity to deny it! It is impossible to argue with someone who simply denies the obvious.

That's not evidence to support your proposition. Thoughts are formed by the electrochemical activity of a brain, as imaged by fMRI and reported by the subject. Thoughts have not been established to be non material. That is your claim. You are using your own claim as evidence to support your claim.

That is a logical fallacy. You are using a circular argument in an attempt to justify your perceived case.

Sorry, but you have no case.
 
Okay, so is the thought 2 + 2 = 4 a mathematical truth, or is it process A in the brain?
both
Since we can probably both agree that process A is physical, what then is the mathematical truth?
who cares, i'd say it is a category... a thought derived from processes within the brain.

So then what exactly is this derivation of a physical process? You realise that this sounds much like duality, don't you?
expression, I guess the only answer that seems reasonable is expression... expression of a thought.
now to clear things up a bit, I don't think a thought is some element that doesn't reside in the brain.
from what I know a thought is completely dependent upon the brain and is an electrical pattern within the brain.
maybe derived wasn't the best thing to write.

Okay, but now we are back to a thought about truth being an electrical pattern instead of a thought about truth.

- - - Updated - - -

Okay, so is the thought 2 + 2 = 4 a mathematical truth, or is it process A in the brain?
both
Since we can probably both agree that process A is physical, what then is the mathematical truth?

That it has inner concistency.

What, are you serious?
 
Can I gather from this that properties do not exist outside of our brains, yes or no?

The concepts are in the brain what they reference is outside the brain.

How can you give me this as an answer? What you put here does not answer my question. Is there a reason why you won't answer this question directly?
 
Okay, but now we are back to a thought about truth being an electrical pattern instead of a thought about truth.
the electrical pattern is the thought.
formally everything you think is based upon neural activity.
 
Okay, so is the thought 2 + 2 = 4 a mathematical truth, or is it process A in the brain?
both
Since we can probably both agree that process A is physical, what then is the mathematical truth?
who cares, i'd say it is a category... a thought derived from processes within the brain.

So then what exactly is this derivation of a physical process? You realise that this sounds much like duality, don't you?
expression, I guess the only answer that seems reasonable is expression... expression of a thought.
now to clear things up a bit, I don't think a thought is some element that doesn't reside in the brain.
from what I know a thought is completely dependent upon the brain and is an electrical pattern within the brain.
maybe derived wasn't the best thing to write.

Okay, but now we are back to a thought about truth being an electrical pattern instead of a thought about truth.

- - - Updated - - -

Okay, so is the thought 2 + 2 = 4 a mathematical truth, or is it process A in the brain?
both
Since we can probably both agree that process A is physical, what then is the mathematical truth?

That it has inner concistency.

What, are you serious?

Absolutely. Maths is a tool for looking at things from different angles. And the thruth is in the inner concistency in the rules used to turn things around.
 
Okay, but now we are back to a thought about truth being an electrical pattern instead of a thought about truth.
the electrical pattern is the thought.
formally everything you think is based upon neural activity.

Okay, then 2 + 2 = 4 is not a mathematical truth; it's neural activity. Around we go.
 
Okay, but now we are back to a thought about truth being an electrical pattern instead of a thought about truth.
the electrical pattern is the thought.
formally everything you think is based upon neural activity.

Okay, then 2 + 2 = 4 is not a mathematical truth; it's neural activity. Around we go.
blah, "mathematical truth" ( whatever you mean, you brought it up and then ask me what it means...)
I said "mathematical truth" is a category, it is neural activity. BOTH
if there was no life in the universe would there be a mind?
 
Okay, but now we are back to a thought about truth being an electrical pattern instead of a thought about truth.
the electrical pattern is the thought.
formally everything you think is based upon neural activity.

Okay, then 2 + 2 = 4 is not a mathematical truth; it's neural activity. Around we go.

You constantly look in the wrong direction. The thing with stuff that you think is "immaterial" is that they live in time and structure rather than position. The mathematical truth is the behavior of processes that follows/uses/ adheres to them.

The truth is in what happens when we use them.

This is also true of "intention" and "meaning" etc: the meaning of a symbol is what happens when you are exposed to it.

The "intention" of an action is what we expects to happen when we perform it.
 
Can I gather from this that properties do not exist outside of our brains, yes or no?

The concepts are in the brain what they reference is outside the brain.

How can you give me this as an answer? What you put here does not answer my question. Is there a reason why you won't answer this question directly?

As I have stated multiple times earlier: you question is ill formed: it is unclear what you refer to. Thus I answered not just one but both of the question you might be asking. So what part of your question is left unanswered do you think? And why do you think that?
 
Okay, but now we are back to a thought about truth being an electrical pattern instead of a thought about truth.
the electrical pattern is the thought.
formally everything you think is based upon neural activity.

Okay, then 2 + 2 = 4 is not a mathematical truth; it's neural activity. Around we go.
blah, "mathematical truth" ( whatever you mean, you brought it up and then ask me what it means...)
I said "mathematical truth" is a category, it is neural activity. BOTH
if there was no life in the universe would there be a mind?

If there is both, and only one of them is physical, then what is the other?

- - - Updated - - -

Okay, but now we are back to a thought about truth being an electrical pattern instead of a thought about truth.
the electrical pattern is the thought.
formally everything you think is based upon neural activity.

Okay, then 2 + 2 = 4 is not a mathematical truth; it's neural activity. Around we go.

You constantly look in the wrong direction. The thing with stuff that you think is "immaterial" is that they live in time and structure rather than position. The mathematical truth is the behavior of processes that follows/uses/ adheres to them.

The truth is in what happens when we use them.

This is also true of "intention" and "meaning" etc: the meaning of a symbol is what happens when you are exposed to it.

The "intention" of an action is what we expects to happen when we perform it.

Please read my fist post to none a few posts ago.
 
Can I gather from this that properties do not exist outside of our brains, yes or no?

The concepts are in the brain what they reference is outside the brain.

How can you give me this as an answer? What you put here does not answer my question. Is there a reason why you won't answer this question directly?

As I have stated multiple times earlier: you question is ill formed: it is unclear what you refer to. Thus I answered not just one but both of the question you might be asking. So what part of your question is left unanswered do you think? And why do you think that?

Do properties (not concepts) exist outside of our brains?
 
If there is both, and only one of them is physical, then what is the other?
I used category for the reference for "mathematical truth", category is physically located in the brain as electrical impulses.
so I'd guess that "mathematical truth" is just an arrangement in brain which can be expressed.
 
If there is both, and only one of them is physical, then what is the other?
I used category for the reference for "mathematical truth", category is physically located in the brain as electrical impulses.
so I'd guess that "mathematical truth" is just an arrangement in brain which can be expressed.

How does that solve the problem? You just switched "category" with "mathematical truth" and equated it to electrical impulses again. The original problem remains.
 
If there is both, and only one of them is physical, then what is the other?
I used category for the reference for "mathematical truth", category is physically located in the brain as electrical impulses.
so I'd guess that "mathematical truth" is just an arrangement in brain which can be expressed.

How does that solve the problem? You just switched "category" with "mathematical truth" and equated it to electrical impulses again. The original problem remains.
what is the problem?
thoughts are electrical impulses in the brain.
I don't understand what the problem is.
 
If there is both, and only one of them is physical, then what is the other?
I used category for the reference for "mathematical truth", category is physically located in the brain as electrical impulses.
so I'd guess that "mathematical truth" is just an arrangement in brain which can be expressed.

How does that solve the problem? You just switched "category" with "mathematical truth" and equated it to electrical impulses again. The original problem remains.
what is the problem?
thoughts are electrical impulses in the brain.
I don't understand what the problem is.

The problem is that your statement along with any other statement would be nothing other than electrical impulses. Paradoxically, this is false if you are right.
 
Back
Top Bottom