George Zimmerman Arrested On Domestic Violence And Weapons Charge

[ksen]

Although his "rescue" of the family goes to show how far he will go to stretch the truth.

also his "original" painting

 

[Nexus]

I am not saying that Zimmerman is a honest guy. I am saying he does not have a condition of being a compulsive liar, which is what was claimed here. Lying about his assets or doing dodgy art deals might be dishonest but it hardly establishes that Zimmerman was pathological.

As for being foolish, that contradicts with him being able to make up very elaborate lies to begin with. A stupid person is more likely to stick with simple lies.

No foolish people make up very elaborate lies and they're not believable. You need to watch those tv shows about dumb criminals and their stupid crimes with their even stupider excuses.

 

[Jayjay]

Certainly. But that's where Occam's Razor comes in. Zimmerman making smallest possible lies he might think he can get away with is more reasonable than him making up an entire elaborate scenario of being somewhere else entirely.

Zimmerman: Well officer, when I said I was checking an address, I was actually in pursuit of the teen while I was armed with a gun. The 911 operator said I didn't need to do that, but I did so anyway.

Officer: Uh huh. That's nice, but where were you?

This seems a red herring.

I'm not sure what you mean and how it relates to the scope of the lies Zimmerman would have to make.

 

[Jayjay]

I am not saying that Zimmerman is a honest guy. I am saying he does not have a condition of being a compulsive liar, which is what was claimed here. Lying about his assets or doing dodgy art deals might be dishonest but it hardly establishes that Zimmerman was pathological.

It means he is not a trustworthy reporter.

Of course he's not a trustworthy reporter, his got considerable stake in not incriminating himself. But that does not explain why he would make up totally unnecessary lies and risk getting caught.

As for being foolish, that contradicts with him being able to make up very elaborate lies to begin with. A stupid person is more likely to stick with simple lies.

Foolish and stupid are different.

Zimmerman has been suggested to be both.

 

[Jayjay]

I am not saying that Zimmerman is a honest guy. I am saying he does not have a condition of being a compulsive liar, which is what was claimed here. Lying about his assets or doing dodgy art deals might be dishonest but it hardly establishes that Zimmerman was pathological.

As for being foolish, that contradicts with him being able to make up very elaborate lies to begin with. A stupid person is more likely to stick with simple lies.

No foolish people make up very elaborate lies and they're not believable. You need to watch those tv shows about dumb criminals and their stupid crimes with their even stupider excuses.

That just shows that making up elaborate and believable lies on the spot is hard to do. Yet some folks here would suggest that this is what Zimmerman did.

 

[Mumbles]

Who said Martin was trying to intimidate Zimmerman? Martin may very well ahve made a full 360 degrees around the car, but even if he didn't, Zimmerman may have used the word "circle" to describe him walking near the car, without it being a bald faced lie, certainly nothing like the elaborate and intricate scenario that you are suggesting Zimmerman lied about.

Again, Zimmerman specifically stated that Martin had left, walked back, walked in a circle around his car, and then ran away, and that he told this to dispatch (he did not). This would be an extraordinarily stupid lie to state - and yet, he did.

You do realize Zimmerman's observed Martin before he called 311, right? So of course, the time Zimmerman was on the call is shorter.

Although the man is clearly a dullard, I doubt it takes him minutes to call "311".

Memory is fallible. And you already admitted that Zimmerman is not the sharpest knife in the drawer, so he may have misremembered when exactly he thought of looking at the address. Again, this is not an example of the kind of elaborate lie you are accusing Zimmerman of making.

You're missing the point. You can claim that he had no reason to lie - but we can compare his story to his own 311 call, and see that his story was pure fantasy. In fact, someone even made a video doing so: it's right here. Given that he was clearly lying about *everything* after Martin walked past him at the clubhouse, and the fact that he was obviously brawling with Martin around the corner, towards the house where Martin was staying, *and* he asked for police to call him so he could tell them where he was, why would anyone believe that he was somehow ambushed by Martin?

And that's before his documented history of violence before and since, including his wine bottle throwing.

 

[RavenSky]

This term does not mean what you seem to think it means.

Occam's Razor is that out of multiple explanations, the one that requires least amount of additional assumptions is likely to be true. If you have some other idea of what it means, do tell.

I have shown that your scenario of Zimmerman running around the townhouses to cut Martin off and chase him back to the T requires more additional assumptions than him simply staying at the T and Trayvon turning back on his own. So application of Occam's Razor in this case means that the latter scenario is more likely.

So you do know what it means but you are applying it wrong. Occam's Razor in this case says that the person who was pursuing will continued to pursue, and the person avoiding/evading will continued to avoid/evade.

Fact: Zimmerman was the pursuer from the start. He even left his truck with a loaded gun to continue to pursue. We have no reason to believe that he suddenly changed his mind and went to look for an address instead. Moreover, in his mind he was pursuing someone who he believed was heading for the back entrance. Everyone agrees he ran across the top of the T to Retreat View Circle. Given that he was pursuing, and that he believed Trayvon was heading towards the back entrance, we have zero reason to believe that Zimmerman would reverse course and head back to Twin Trees Lane. THAT is the additional assumption. Occam's Razor supports the assumption that Zimmerman continued down Retreat View Circle for at least the length of the first building (six townhouses wide) before he cut back into the alley behind the parallel rows of townhouses.

Fact: Trayvon tried to avoid/evade from the start. It is an additional assumption to believe Zimmerman's ridiculous claim of Trayvon circling his truck. It is also an additional assumption to believe that Trayvon suddenly reversed course in the back alley to return to the top of the T. It doesn't make any rational sense why he might do that, and requires a whole bunch of unsupported assumptions.

Quite frankly, though, looking again at the crime scene map I'm thinking Zimmerman's actual lie was ever making it as far as Retreat View Circle. My original assumption was that he did because he made such an issue about the back entrance. What makes more sense is that he started across the top of the T for that reason, but then spotted Trayvon about 50 feet into the T and took off after him again. This would explain why Zimmerman's key chain and small flashlight were about 40 feet north of the body near the top of the T, but his bigger flashlight and Trayvon's cell phone were found several feet south of Trayvon's body.

 

[RavenSky]

Why do we have to wonder whether he would since he apparently did? Seems Z answered that question for us.

Occam's Razor suggests that if Z told the police he was ambushed by Martin as he was going back to his truck and the evidence says it didn't happen that way that he's lying.

But the evidence does suggest that he was going back to his truck, instead of running around the townhouses as suggested by some people here.

There is zero evidence he was going back to his truck. Even the key chain was several feet south down the alleyway (but still approx 40 feet north of Trayvon's body), which is impossible if he was on the top of the T walking back to his vehicle.

 

[RavenSky]

Certainly. But that's where Occam's Razor comes in. Zimmerman making smallest possible lies he might think he can get away with is more reasonable than him making up an entire elaborate scenario of being somewhere else entirely.

Zimmerman: Well officer, when I said I was checking an address, I was actually in pursuit of the teen while I was armed with a gun. The 911 operator said I didn't need to do that, but I did so anyway.

Officer: Uh huh. That's nice, but where were you?

This seems a red herring.

Yep. But much easier than talking about the fact that Zimmerman killed an innocent teenager, got away with it, and now continues to be an aggressive violent armed asshole to more people.

 

[ZiprHead]

You have not established a pattern of pathological lying in the scale required by your scenario of Zimmerman lying about parking his car, or running down Twin Trees lane (or for Arctish's and RavenSky's favourite scenario of him running down Retreat View Circle for that matter).

You're forgetting about the lying about assets for bail. His fraudulent art sale after the trial. Occam's razor says you need to start presenting evidence Zimmerman is and honest guy because his history of lying says otherwise. Actually Occam's razor doesn't say that. Occam's razor is a guide for scientists developing theoretical models. Usually a simpler one is preferred however it isn't the arbiter of competing models. Occam's razor doesn't apply at all when trying to figure out the criminal actions of a irrational liar doing foolish things that get him into trouble.

Don't forget the passports.

 

[RavenSky]

You're missing the point. You can claim that he had no reason to lie - but we can compare his story to his own 311 call, and see that his story was pure fantasy. In fact, someone even made a video doing so: it's right here. Given that he was clearly lying about *everything* after Martin walked past him at the clubhouse, and the fact that he was obviously brawling with Martin around the corner, towards the house where Martin was staying, *and* he asked for police to call him so he could tell them where he was, why would anyone believe that he was somehow ambushed by Martin?

And that's before his documented history of violence before and since, including his wine bottle throwing.

The video you linked to should be required viewing for anyone before they are allowed to post in any Zimmerman thread

[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHyIpO43NRg[/YOUTUBE]

 

[Nexus]

That just shows that making up elaborate and believable lies on the spot is hard to do. Yet some folks here would suggest that this is what Zimmerman did.

The people here that believe Zimmermans's lies coincidentally are pro-authoritarian and spin wild yarns themselves about Martin. Search some of Loren's posts in this thread in case you missed them and need examples.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Zimmerman: Well officer, when I said I was checking an address, I was actually in pursuit of the teen while I was armed with a gun. The 911 operator said I didn't need to do that, but I did so anyway.

Officer: Uh huh. That's nice, but where were you?

This seems a red herring.

Yep. But much easier than talking about the fact that Zimmerman killed an innocent teenager, got away with it, and now continues to be an aggressive violent armed asshole to more people.

Not as much an aggressive violent armed asshole, but more of an aggressive violent armed ass...

...no you got it right the first time.

- - - Updated - - -

That just shows that making up elaborate and believable lies on the spot is hard to do. Yet some folks here would suggest that this is what Zimmerman did.

The people here that believe Zimmermans's lies coincidentally are pro-authoritarian and spin wild yarns themselves about Martin. Search some of Loren's posts in this thread in case you missed them and need examples.

To find the posts quicker, just do a find for "crown jewels" and "Jimmy Hoffa's disappearance".

 

[Arctish]

You're missing the point. You can claim that he had no reason to lie - but we can compare his story to his own 311 call, and see that his story was pure fantasy. In fact, someone even made a video doing so: it's right here. Given that he was clearly lying about *everything* after Martin walked past him at the clubhouse, and the fact that he was obviously brawling with Martin around the corner, towards the house where Martin was staying, *and* he asked for police to call him so he could tell them where he was, why would anyone believe that he was somehow ambushed by Martin?

And that's before his documented history of violence before and since, including his wine bottle throwing.

The video you linked to should be required viewing for anyone before they are allowed to post in any Zimmerman thread

I agree! Thanks for the link, Mumbles.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

That just shows that making up elaborate and believable lies on the spot is hard to do. Yet some folks here would suggest that this is what Zimmerman did.

The people here that believe Zimmermans's lies coincidentally are pro-authoritarian and spin wild yarns themselves about Martin. Search some of Loren's posts in this thread in case you missed them and need examples.

Alternately, you're simply assuming that since Martin was an unarmed black teen he must be innocent.

We see this every time a black gets shot--plenty of people determined the cops were wrong no matter what the facts are.

 

[ksen]

Martin was innocent . . . no assumptions needed.

eta: and I have to say "was" because he's dead now

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

The people here that believe Zimmermans's lies coincidentally are pro-authoritarian and spin wild yarns themselves about Martin. Search some of Loren's posts in this thread in case you missed them and need examples.

Alternately, you're simply assuming that since Martin was an unarmed black teen he must be innocent.

Only Zimmerman Fan Fic really supposes Martin was trying to commit crimes of grandeur. Besides, Martin doesn't have to be Wayne Brady to not deserve to be dead.

We see this every time a black gets shot--plenty of people determined the cops were wrong no matter what the facts are.

There is a difference between a justifiable killing and a killing. Also, I believe there have been threads on whites getting killed too. In fact, there is a recent one with a teenaged girl being shot and killed because she was wielding not a gun.

 

[Nice Squirrel]

The people here that believe Zimmermans's lies coincidentally are pro-authoritarian and spin wild yarns themselves about Martin. Search some of Loren's posts in this thread in case you missed them and need examples.

Alternately, you're simply assuming that since Martin was an unarmed black teen he must be innocent.

Please let us know what crime Martin committed.

 

[coloradoatheist]

Alternately, you're simply assuming that since Martin was an unarmed black teen he must be innocent.

Please let us know what crime Martin committed.

Is pot smoking legal in florida? Especially for 17 year olds? I don't think there were any crimes, but I do believe the ingredients he bought that night weren't for his brother.

 

[Nice Squirrel]

Please let us know what crime Martin committed.

Is pot smoking legal in florida? Especially for 17 year olds? I don't think there were any crimes, but I do believe the ingredients he bought that night weren't for his brother.

And what crime was committed? What crime was he being followed for?