Would You Choose to Live in Heaven?

[Rhea]

It's best I use just one term paradise, if you're ok with that, so we can move on. General understanding: Jesus is Ruler (by Gods side) in context that He is appointed by God as King over ALL kings on Earth to come.

This is a drail from Slavery, though. We should move it to a new thread. I’ll report the post and request a split.

 

[Learner]

It's best I use just one term paradise, if you're ok with that, so we can move on. General understanding: Jesus is Ruler (by Gods side) in context that He is appointed by God as King over ALL kings on Earth to come.

This is a drail from Slavery, though. We should move it to a new thread. I’ll report the post and request a split.

Ok no probs., we'll leave it there, and go back to the topic

 

[Rhea]

Okay, so hear’s the deal [MENTION=458]Learner[/MENTION];;

If you want to ask me whether I would like to live in Heaven, you need to define it, in detail.

Do not ask me to do research to define your question for you.
Do not ask me to conduct polls of my friends to establiish your question for you..
Do not ask me to make your definition for you.

YOU definine what YOU want to know such that a person could decide. Then people will answer your poll question.

Describe Heaven - as you want me to answer about living in it.
Describe who is there. Describe what it is like. Describe a typical period of time in it. Describe what happens if a resident disagrees with something in it. Describe how residents are nourished, how they are entertained, how they interact.

You should be wary when someone offers you a Pig in a Poke.

This is a pig in a poke:

There's no more suffering pain, no death or disease, but theres abundance of various things that caters for every need e.g. no more hunger or thirst etc. in the paradise, and not to forget, also seeing your loved ones and above all ... God.

It could be someone’s LSD trip. It could be a plot line for the Matrix. It could be a reversion to infancy or the womb. It says nothing and it means nothing. Go deep, Learner, go deep. What is heaven REALLY like?

I realize this is difficult because you have never been there, you do not know anyone who has been there, there are absolutely no writings of anyone who has been there. There are no artifacts from anyone who has been there.

So you’ve bought a pig in a poke and now you are trying to sell it to me. You want me to say, “I’ll buy it!” Without ever loosening the string. You want me to even give you a description of your pig, you want me to ask my friends about the nature of your pig. But it’s your poke and you’re going to have to show your pig.

My mamma raised some ugly kids, but no dumb ones.
I ain’t buying your pig in a poke.

So sharpen your pencil and get to work. Tell me EXACTLY what Heaven is like if you want me to declare whether I would go there.

 

[Lion IRC]

So here's an interesting Heaven problem.

You are a parent. You have some children who lose their faith and become atheists. When you go to heaven, and they go to the lake of fire (your children, the ones you would do anything to protect, whom you loved and nurtured and would be horrified if someone beat up,) when you're in heaven and they are burning YOU DON'T CARE. It doesn't bother you one bit that they are burning. because heaven is defined as without pain, lament or regret. In your new body, you forget about your children and don't care about their suffering.

Weird definition of perfect, huh?

One persons heaven is another persons hell.

Seems tons of atheists know enough about heaven/hell to provide commentary

 

[Rhea]

You religionists are so reluctant to describe your heaven. It’s interesting. I wonder why.

It would be so easy for you to just start typing and gush and glow about all the things you expect to see there. Instead, you find a quote from me that is six years old because you’d rather talk about my definition of heaven than yours.

You’re sending messages, you know, when you do this.
We see you dodging and weaving to avoid talking about what heaven is like, and it definitely sends messages about how sure you are about heaven.

It’s fascinating, actually.

I would think you would be so freakin’ excited that an atheist just gave you their attention and asked for a detailed description of heaven. But look what you did. You ran off to do a search to use my words, not yours.

It’s really interesting to watch.

 

[Rhea]

Also, that’s a pretty funny thread. I recommend it.

 

[bilby]

So here's an interesting Heaven problem.

You are a parent. You have some children who lose their faith and become atheists. When you go to heaven, and they go to the lake of fire (your children, the ones you would do anything to protect, whom you loved and nurtured and would be horrified if someone beat up,) when you're in heaven and they are burning YOU DON'T CARE. It doesn't bother you one bit that they are burning. because heaven is defined as without pain, lament or regret. In your new body, you forget about your children and don't care about their suffering.

Weird definition of perfect, huh?

One persons heaven is another persons hell.

Seems tons of atheists know enough about heaven/hell to provide commentary

Sure. Tons of people know enough about Star Trek, Dr Who, or Lord of the Rings to provide commentary, too.

Fiction is frequently like that.

But when people are not sure that they agree about what parts of a given body fiction are canonical, they either need to declare what they mean, what they accept, and what they believe; or be doomed to talk pointlessly at cross purposes.

 

[southernhybrid]

A utopian society or place is a very common myth in many religions and probably even in secular philosophies. Other than Christian mythology, which I was raised to accept, I am fairly familiar with the Baha'i mythology, as I was married to a member of that religion for 9 years. In the Baha'i mythology, there is a belief in what is known as "the most great peace". This is believed to be a future time on earth when wars are no more, racism and sexism are relics of the past, and everyone lives happily, with love and respect for each other. That sounds like a beautiful concept, but one which I'm afraid is extremely unlikely to ever happen, as sadly humans tend to be selfish and tribal in nature, and even the best of us might be influenced by things that cause our loving nature to become selfish.

When I was a Christian child, the concept of heaven that I was taught was very vague. It was a place reserved only for those who believed like we did. It wasn't a place where people were rewarded for having a good character, but rather a place where only those who literally believed in the Biblical myths would go to spend eternity. It was a place where we did little other than worship and sing god's praises 24/7. Even at a young age, I found that a bit repulsive, as it seemed unfair and mean to punish good people who didn't share my beliefs. I was also taught that the nonbelievers, aka nonmembers of my tribe, would be punished eternally for the simply inability to accept the Christian doctrine as it was interpreted by evangelical Christians. Even at age 8, I found that quite horrific, but my father kept telling me that god would explain it all to me one day. So, I held onto those beliefs as best I could until I was around 18. By then, I realized that the beliefs I had been taught were both false and ugly. My eyes were opened and to put it in Christian lingo, the truth set me free.

So, if that's what you Christians mean by heaven, I don't think I'd be happy in such a place. I like people who have all kinds of beliefs, even if I find those beliefs to be no more than wishful thinking. A place that left out atheists, Muslims, Bahai's, Hindus, etc, would not be a happy place for me. A place where all we did was worship the Christian god sounds like a miserable existence. I'm not a fan of narcissistic autocratic leaders. And, I'm not so sure that eternal life even sounds very attractive. It certainly would get boring after millions of years. So, I'll go with what Mark Twain said, "Heaven for the climate, hell for the company". It's true that one man's heaven is another man's hell. But then again, the concept of an afterlife is nothing more than a primitive, imaginary concept to me, but if it helps you cope with the hardships of life, and makes you a more loving tolerant person, who am I to judge?

 

[Learner]

Okay, so hear’s the deal [MENTION=458]Learner[/MENTION];;

If you want to ask me whether I would like to live in Heaven, you need to define it, IN DETAIL.

Do not ask me to do research to define your question for you.
Do not ask me to conduct polls of my friends to establiish your question for you..
Do not ask me to make your definition for you.

It was merely a suggestion because of the different varied discriptions (although sarky)you gave in a previous post. I was just curious of these contradictions you mentioned.

Define In Detail hmmm... I suppose we'll never get to that "Yes or No" or "would you live in..?" answer. Most obvious, as you mentioned in the quote below (one before the last quote below):

No one's been there!

Theists would say the same thing

It would be interesting to know what definition versions (just one of two), you know from your Christian friends, then perhaps I could point and say, "It's similar to that one!"

YOU definine what YOU want to know such that a person could decide. Then people will answer your poll question.

Describe Heaven - as you want me to answer about living in it.
Describe who is there. Describe what it is like. Describe a typical period of time in it. Describe what happens if a resident disagrees with something in it. Describe how residents are nourished, how they are entertained, how they interact.

Yes.. thats a lot of detailed discriptions. You're not expecting that amount in detail of course.

Before going and visiting places for the FIRST time, IF I was asked about those places, I wouldn't be able tell you what it would be like EXACTLY, but from what I heard .. it sounded lke these places would be very nice to live in. As you do, I got the picture you could say, from 'how' enjoyable and HAPPY I'd be, just to be there from what I heard about them.

You should be wary when someone offers you a Pig in a Poke.

This is a pig in a poke:

There's no more suffering pain, no death or disease, but theres abundance of various things that caters for every need e.g. no more hunger or thirst etc. in the paradise, and not to forget, also seeing your loved ones and above all ... God.

It could be someone’s LSD trip. It could be a plot line for the Matrix. It could be a reversion to infancy or the womb. It says nothing and it means nothing. Go deep, Learner, go deep. What is heaven REALLY like?

You could meet me half-way, summing up from my short list, simple description (no more suffering, no death.. in the above quote), just to get the gist or picture narrative, which I am assuming indicates that a lot of people would be very Joyously Happy!

Also goes for quote below:

It could be someone’s LSD trip. It could be a plot line for the Matrix. It could be a reversion to infancy or the womb. It says nothing and it means nothing. Go deep, Learner, go deep. What is heaven REALLY like?

* I realize this is difficult because you have never been there, you do not know anyone who has been there, there are absolutely no writings of anyone who has been there. There are no artifacts from anyone who has been there.

I don't think we're gonna get past the "What is heaven like" in detaill for obvious reasons. The continous cycle - knowing those obvious reasons whilst still asking; takes up a bit of time, which also does hinder the ability to say yes or no.

So you’ve bought a pig in a poke and now you are trying to sell it to me. You want me to say, “I’ll buy it!” Without ever loosening the string. You want me to even give you a description of your pig, you want me to ask my friends about the nature of your pig. But it’s your poke and you’re going to have to show your pig.

My mamma raised some ugly kids, but no dumb ones.
I ain’t buying your pig in a poke.

So sharpen your pencil and get to work. Tell me EXACTLY what Heaven is like if you want me to declare whether I would go there.

No sales pitch here, we can talk about that later maybe. I was oddly enough, under the impression you were at least previously talking hypothetically.

The last line highlighted in red... just see above!


(quoting thing takes me ages)

 

[Rhea]

It was merely a suggestion because of the different varied discriptions (although sarky)you gave in a previous post. I was just curious of these contradictions you mentioned.

I’m sure you are curious. And that is natural. What is NOT natural is your refusal to tell me your story behind your question while you quiz me for someone else’s story.

Ask yourself why you are doing that. I’m curious. Why do you expect others to tell the story so that all you have to say is, “yes, it’s like that!” When you are unwilling to tell your own story.

So far, this is all we know about what you thhink heaven is. It’s all we know. You have refused to add any additional detail. Is this because you’ve never thought about it before? You’ve never tried to picture it? You’ve never tried to tie together what your scripture tells you and what your preacher tells you and what Jack Chick tells you and what your many detailed individual personal discussions directly with your god have told you?

Don’t you find that a little weird? Do you wonder why you have nothing at all to add beyond

There's no more suffering pain, no death or disease, but theres abundance of various things that caters for every need e.g. no more hunger or thirst etc. in the paradise, and not to forget, also seeing your loved ones and above all ... God.

In all your years as a Christian, that’s all you can come up with? Seriously? “Various things that cater to every need”??? Is this a resort advert?


It sounds like before I can answer your question about whether I would live in the Heaven that you believe exists, it sounds like you should examine what you believe exists.

Otherwise... “Dump Trucks.”

Define In Detail hmmm... I suppose we'll never get to that "Yes or No" or "would you live in..?" answer.

Well, certainly not if you refuse to describe “there”

“Do you like my artwork?”
“Can I see it?”
“No.”
“Well, how can I say if I like it?”
“You’re not going to answwer me, are you?”
“Dude, I can’t.”

It would be interesting to know what definition versions (just one of two), you know from your Christian friends,

Let’s do that after you describe your view of heaven. Sure it’s interesting. But it’s a derail from whether I’d live in your heaven.

Yes.. thats a lot of detailed discriptions. You're not expecting that amount in detail of course.

There you go again, pretending to know what I think.

You’re wrong. I read Sci Fi and Fantasy. I can enjoy thousands of pages of someone else’s detailed descriptions of their fantasy world. Look up Brandon Sanderson and know that I have read more than twelve thousand pages of his detail, and then read it a second time, and a third, because his worlds are fascinating and enjoyable.

Before going and visiting places for the FIRST time, IF I was asked about those places, I wouldn't be able tell you what it would be like EXACTLY, but from what I heard .. it sounded lke these places would be very nice to live in. As you do, I got the picture you could say, from 'how' enjoyable and HAPPY I'd be, just to be there from what I heard about them.

Exactly. I have heard NOTHING about your “place.” And I can’t figure out why you are handing me a blank brochure and asking me for a downpayment. That’s just weird. Don’t you like your place? Don’t you WANT to describe it?

You could meet me half-way, summing up from my short list, simple description (no more suffering, no death.. in the above quote), just to get the gist or picture narrative, which I am assuming indicates that a lot of people would be very Joyously Happy!

Why on earth would I “meet you halfway” and do your work of “summing up” your one sentence so that I make a decision on my information instead of yours? That’s weird. Besides, I already met you half way and summed up. “It’s a Pig in a Poke.”

I don't think we're gonna get past the "What is heaven like" in detaill for obvious reasons.

No, this is not obvious. Why can’t you describe the heaven that you believe in? Whatever makes you want to be there. Is it really just “Various things that cater to every need”? Really?. That’s the sum total of your thoughts when you think of your heaven?

The continous cycle - knowing those obvious reasons whilst still asking; takes up a bit of time, which also does hinder the ability to say yes or no.

The reasons are not obvious. You are assuming that I know what’s in your head. Maybe this is because you feel that you can assume what’s in mine. (You’ve been wrong every time so far, also that is insulting.)

I’m not so arrogant and conceited - I know that I DO NOT know what is in your head, and I am straight up asking you.

Maybe I need to just give up and admit that I am talking to a guy who genuinely makes life decisions based on “Various things that cater to every need” being promised to him after death. And maybe that is truly the sum total of what exists in your mind and you don’t think any more deeply than that.

I guess at this point I need to entertain that as a distinct possibility.

So sharpen your pencil and get to work. Tell me EXACTLY what Heaven is like if you want me to declare whether I would go there.

No sales pitch here, we can talk about that later maybe. I was oddly enough, under the impression you were at least previously talking hypothetically.

Of course we are talking hypothetically. You’re asking if I’d like to go to a place that no one has ever been to and returned. It’s a fantasy place, as far as I can tell and doesn’t exist at all, so of course it is hypothetical, but I’m still completely in the dark about what your hypothetical “heaven” includes.


Learner, if your NEXT POST is not several paragrpahs, in your own words, about what heaven is like, then I will need to determine that this book with a pretty cover is just completely blank, and that I should use it as woodstove fuel.

 

[James Brown]

Would I be free to kill someone that I don't like?

I can't do that in this world, because doing so comes with severe long-term consequences. Will heaven provide me with more freedom than what I have on Earth?

 

[Learner]

Learner, if your NEXT POST is not several paragrpahs, in your own words, about what heaven is like, then I will need to determine that this book with a pretty cover is just completely blank, and that I should use it as woodstove fuel.

Only need to respond to this bit which should be suffice for the rest of your post....


It' doesn't seem that hard to give an answer, does it?

Did you check out southerns post? A good post in fact - Southern was ABLE to to give her viewpoint on what she thought about living in Heaven... ...responding with: she wouldn't want to live in it from what she knows from the description she got. Ramansha (forgive spelling Rams if you see this) said in a discussion that he wouldn't like to live there because he thought it would be too boring.

In a manner of speaking, they didn't need the details of what lawnmowers would be used in heavens garden. With only the info they got - that's with much less details you know you can't get, but you STILL demand and ask for anyway. They had a viewpoint on living in Heaven.

Maybe you thought I was asking a trick question, or as you did mention in one post, you thought it was a "thought experiment" and gave the impression you were 'avoiding' it.

As I previously thought, I seem to have assumed correct, wanting to leave it there some posts back - you seem to have some difficulty and as we see several posts later.... It's not a demand that you answer yes or no, living in heaven... any heaven that is.

 

[Learner]

Would I be free to kill someone that I don't like?

I can't do that in this world, because doing so comes with severe long-term consequences. Will heaven provide me with more freedom than what I have on Earth?

I think it's a place for those who wouldn't like to kill someone. It would however, likely be freedom to them over there (being meek an' all), especially when there's NO wanna-kill-someones about cramping-their-style.

 

[abaddon]

It' doesn't seem that hard to give an answer..

Actually it seems impossible for anyone to give a substantive answer. Your "pig in a poke" quote (in an earlier post) was just some negations ("no suffering" et al) and the assertion that loved ones and God would be there.

But is there a "there" there?

Did you check out southerns post? A good post in fact - Southern was ABLE to to give her viewpoint on what she thought about living in Heaven...

southernhybrid told about Baha'i mythology's "the most great peace" and it was just a series of negations: no wars, no racism, no sexism, no unhappiness, no hate, no disrespect. That's not details of what "the most great peace" is so it's not enough to judge the value of the place, let alone to judge if it's real.

In her post, the closest thing to a detail about the Christian heaven was "worship and sing god's praises 24/7".

It's all too vague to be substantial enough to judge as worth believing or not.

They had a viewpoint on living in Heaven.

Yeah, they found that whatever vague tidbits of information there are don't suffice to make it even appealing, let alone support the case that it might be real.

So why is it that believers react to all the extreme vagueness so very differently? It's understandable if you wish you could go on existing forever and will see deceased loved ones again. But, how do you know if heaven's real without better details about it?

Try to understand the following point if you can: Without sufficient details there's no basis to judge if the idea's worth believing or not.

 

[Rhea]

It' doesn't seem that hard to give an answer, does it?

It seems that for you it is excruciating.

I’m going to just go with your direction here and start exploring the psychological implications of you asking me whether I would live in the heaven described in your head while you refuse to describe the heaven in your head.

I feel like I am sensing a deep discomfort in your faith. That you are trying to defend a doctrine that you are given, but it doesn’t feel defensible to you. You are teetering in insecurity and crisis. You reach out to see if I will validate your faith by saying that I, as an atheist, do believe that your heaven sounds great. And that even though you cannot articulate it at all, I will articulate it for you and describe something that you can believe in. And if I can’t come up with that, maybe my Christian friends can help you overcome this aching fear and vertigo by providing a validating description that I can pass on to you and you can sigh with relief and clutch as a life preserver for your soul.

You are agitated that I am not coming to your rescue, and your stress behaviors drive you to lash out and blame me for the lack of believable description in your faith, your doctrine and the salve for your cerebellum. You rail that I have not yet provided you with a description of your heaven. You claim that I am being recalcitrant and cruel in failing to provide the life preserver to you. You were casting the future of your soul into my hands to rescue you from your faith crisis.


I have no idea if any of that is true, but it fits with the evidence at hand. It is interesting how many posts you have gone on refusing to describe that thing which you dedicate your entire life to achieving - heaven. I have no idea why. It’s crazy. It feels like describing heaven, to a devout Christian, should be trivially easy and full of lustrous details gleaned from years of prayer and interaction with your personal god.

But... nothing. The answer to your question - would I live in a void? No, I would not want that.

I find this to be absolutely fascinating. I think I shall go do a web search of phychiatric academic sources to see if I can figure out what would make a person do that. Expose for public view their lack of faith like that.

 

[James Brown]

Would I be free to kill someone that I don't like?

I can't do that in this world, because doing so comes with severe long-term consequences. Will heaven provide me with more freedom than what I have on Earth?

I think it's a place for those who wouldn't like to kill someone. It would however, likely be freedom to them over there (being meek an' all), especially when there's NO wanna-kill-someones about cramping-their-style.

So if someone wants to kill someone, but also proceeds to "confess with his mouth that Jesus is LORD and believe in his heart that God raised Him from the dead", then that person won't be allowed into Heaven?

Would I be free to steal in Heaven?

Would I be free to tell a lie in Heaven?

Would I be free to make a graven image in Heaven?

It is an easy assertion to make (I used to make it when I was a believer): "Heaven will be wonderful because the only people there will want to be there, and they won't want to sin. Everyone will have free will (just like here on Earth) but no one will ever use that free will to do anything bad (unlike here on Earth.)"

According to Christian orthodoxy, on two different occasions God has created free-willed beings who proceeded to rebel against him. The first was Lucifer and one-third of all angels. The second was Adam and Eve in the Garden. But for some reason, we're expected to believe that the third time will be the charm.

Yes, it's a lovely assertion. But assertions without evidence can be dismissed without argument.

 

[Lion IRC]

Would I be free to steal in Heaven?

Would I be free to tell a lie in Heaven?

Would I be free to make a graven image in Heaven

You would be free to WANT to do those things. Thats what free WILL means.

Now, no more conflating free will with omnipotence - ability. If you want to do anything you wish, make your own universe.

If you are the sort of person who wants to defy and disobey God, you won't be happy in heaven.

 

[bilby]

Would I be free to steal in Heaven?

Would I be free to tell a lie in Heaven?

Would I be free to make a graven image in Heaven

You would be free to WANT to do those things. Thats what free WILL means.

Now, no more conflating free will with omnipotence - ability. If you want to do anything you wish, make your own universe.

If you are the sort of person who wants to defy and disobey God, you won't be happy in heaven.

Sounds like a totalitarian dictatorship to me. And like the exact antithesis of freedom of any kind.

You can do literally anything you like, as long as you only like the exact same things that the dictator wants you to like. Do anything else, and expect severe and eternal retribution.

That's a great moral for a tale designed to maintain a medieval tyrant in his power over the peasantry, but it's a shithouse bit of actual morality.

 

[ideologyhunter]

Would I be free to kill someone that I don't like?

I can't do that in this world, because doing so comes with severe long-term consequences. Will heaven provide me with more freedom than what I have on Earth?

Question for theologians or professional bullshitters (and/or?)...
Can the inhabitants of heaven be murdered? Or are they like cyborgs, and just keep coming back restored?
Also, would they resist an attack, or, if you demanded one of their wings, give you both wings plus the halo?
If a heavenite was actually murdered, would he/she wake up on earth or go on to some new place, say, Heaven Remix?
Would the heavenite murderer get a transfer to hell, or would a citation of God's 135 acts of murder/mass murder get him/her off? (I'm using the stat from the back of The Skeptic's Annotated Bible.)
If Johnny Cochran made it to heaven -- no, forget it, I'm out of questions.

 

[DBT]

Would I be free to steal in Heaven?

Would I be free to tell a lie in Heaven?

Would I be free to make a graven image in Heaven

You would be free to WANT to do those things. Thats what free WILL means.

Now, no more conflating free will with omnipotence - ability. If you want to do anything you wish, make your own universe.

If you are the sort of person who wants to defy and disobey God, you won't be happy in heaven.

If your wants are fixed, your wants are not free.