What provoked the Axial Age?

[rousseau]

I do not think it is at all true that pre-urban societies aren't capable of complex ontology; someone who feels this way generally has not talked to an actual real live animist about faith matters. I was chatting with one of my students just yesterday about the sweat lodge ceremony as practiced in his home region (the Pine Ridge Reservation), and the symbolism involved in the setting and actions; I would not describe it as any more or less complex than any Christian or Buddhist liturgy, say, that I am familiar with. And as this symbolism was inherent in the way the area was set up, archaeology can confirm that this is not just Settler "contamination".

Lets take a wider and older example: Shamanism, ie Eliade's "archaic techniques of ecstasy". This phenomenon is similar enough around the world that most believe it to have had a single region of origin; it's not just the ecstatic travel itself, but many characteristics connected to it, both practical and mythological/cosmological. When did these ideas spread, and from where? The where is usually assumed to be ancient Siberia. These ideas are already widespread well before the Axial Age, and indeed are old enough that the paucity of the archaeological record around older materials becomes a problem in trying to answer that question. But spread they did, and among peoples that had few of the markers of "complexity" that Europeans look for, not that in fact the forager life is actually all that simple.

At this point we're parsing definitions: what constitutes 'complex'.

If we're contrasting the thought of North American Natives circa 5000 BC with certain Christian sects circa 400 AD there is no comparison. But 'complexity' isn't so much what I was trying to highlight as much as that the degree of specialization is tightly tied to how much of it the society it lives in can support. And so a wealthier society is more likely to host specialized systems of thought. Consider the legal system of Mesopotamia, or the thought of Greek philosophers, the numerous religious sects in Rome.

Further, these societies act as a culture where these philosophies can grow and spread. So it's likely that many of the systems of thought throughout history that still exist today originated in major global centres (China, Rome, India).

I would consult Tainter.

Tainter, Joseph A. (2003), The Collapse of Complex Societies, New York & Cambridge, UK: Cambridge University Press, ISBN 0-521-38673-X

IIRC, he includes Mayan and Chacoan cultures in his examples. Complex civilizations presumably built upon the same sacred traditions as other native Americans.

I think, more closely to the question in the OP: what provoked the axial age. It was that there were societies above a critical mass of population and resources with the ability to propagate their systems of thought.

 

[LordKiran]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/earth/hi/earth_news/newsid_8127000/8127519.stm

Well how else would these globe spanning colonies make sense?

Titled link: BBC - Earth News - Ant mega-colony takes over world -- There is another hypothesis that makes more sense than living on the ocean floor. That these ants are hitchhikers in cargo shipments and the like.

Sure but that doesn't mean they aren't also capable of creating massive hives that are so big they physically connect to each other from across continents.

Supposedly there are ants at the bottom of the Marianas trench for instance though this is the only link I could find on the subject.

https://scientificenquirer.wordpress.com/2010/10/05/ocean-probe-reveals-underwater-ant-colonies/

So make of this what you will I guess. Looks kinda fake though. /shrug

In either case I think the first link shows that ants can and do globalize alongside us, even if it is just the result of human globalism.

 

[whollygoats]

I would consult Tainter.

Tainter, Joseph A. (2003), The Collapse of Complex Societies, New York & Cambridge, UK: Cambridge University Press, ISBN 0-521-38673-X

IIRC, he includes Mayan and Chacoan cultures in his examples. Complex civilizations presumably built upon the same sacred traditions as other native Americans.

I think, more closely to the question in the OP: what provoked the axial age. It was that there were societies above a critical mass of population and resources with the ability to propagate their systems of thought.

No, I think it is a 'framing' issue. I tend to think that the whole 'Axial Age' thing smacks of convenient framing for self-congratulations.

I think you were on the right track in terms of getting agreed upon terms. I think we would improve the quality of the discussion by being on the same page as much as possible.

To that end, I have found that Tainter's tome is online in full. See: http://wtf.tw/ref/tainter.pdf

Page 23 begins his discussion of complexity.

Is this adequate?

 

[LordKiran]

I would consult Tainter.

Tainter, Joseph A. (2003), The Collapse of Complex Societies, New York & Cambridge, UK: Cambridge University Press, ISBN 0-521-38673-X

IIRC, he includes Mayan and Chacoan cultures in his examples. Complex civilizations presumably built upon the same sacred traditions as other native Americans.

I think, more closely to the question in the OP: what provoked the axial age. It was that there were societies above a critical mass of population and resources with the ability to propagate their systems of thought.

No, I think it is a 'framing' issue. I tend to think that the whole 'Axial' thing smacks of convenient framing for self-congratulations.

I think you were on the right track in terms of getting agreed upon terms.

To that end, I have found that Tainter's tome is onine in full. See: http://wtf.tw/ref/tainter.pdf

Page 23 begins his discussion of complexity.

Is this adequate?

Agreed. Christianity for much of its history teetered between mono and polytheism. With East Orthodoxy's/Roman Catholocism's penchant for declaring patron saints one could think of them as minor gods of sorts. They fit the role in the framework at least.

 

[whollygoats]

No, I think it is a 'framing' issue. I tend to think that the whole 'Axial' thing smacks of convenient framing for self-congratulations.

I think you were on the right track in terms of getting agreed upon terms.

To that end, I have found that Tainter's tome is onine in full. See: http://wtf.tw/ref/tainter.pdf

Page 23 begins his discussion of complexity.

Is this adequate?

Agreed. Christianity for much of its history teetered between mono and polytheism. With East Orthodoxy's/Roman Catholocism's penchant for declaring patron saints one could think of them as minor gods of sorts. They fit the role in the framework at least.

They, in turn, inherited it from their antecedent, Judaism. See Margaret Barker's work, The Great Angel, A Study of Isreal's Second God. Westminster/John Knox Press, Louisville, Kentucky, 1992.

 

[Politesse]

I do not think it is at all true that pre-urban societies aren't capable of complex ontology; someone who feels this way generally has not talked to an actual real live animist about faith matters. I was chatting with one of my students just yesterday about the sweat lodge ceremony as practiced in his home region (the Pine Ridge Reservation), and the symbolism involved in the setting and actions; I would not describe it as any more or less complex than any Christian or Buddhist liturgy, say, that I am familiar with. And as this symbolism was inherent in the way the area was set up, archaeology can confirm that this is not just Settler "contamination".

Lets take a wider and older example: Shamanism, ie Eliade's "archaic techniques of ecstasy". This phenomenon is similar enough around the world that most believe it to have had a single region of origin; it's not just the ecstatic travel itself, but many characteristics connected to it, both practical and mythological/cosmological. When did these ideas spread, and from where? The where is usually assumed to be ancient Siberia. These ideas are already widespread well before the Axial Age, and indeed are old enough that the paucity of the archaeological record around older materials becomes a problem in trying to answer that question. But spread they did, and among peoples that had few of the markers of "complexity" that Europeans look for, not that in fact the forager life is actually all that simple.

At this point we're parsing definitions: what constitutes 'complex'.

Er... ethnocentrism usually, right? One's own culture or those formally similar to it always seems more "complex" due to greater familiarity with its details, it's a bit like an optical illusion. The viewer sees and understands more of the symbolic set they know best, so it seems fuller and richer than anyone else's perspective.

If we're contrasting the thought of North American Natives circa 5000 BC with certain Christian sects circa 400 AD there is no comparison. But 'complexity' isn't so much what I was trying to highlight as much as that the degree of specialization is tightly tied to how much of it the society it lives in can support. And so a wealthier society is more likely to host specialized systems of thought. Consider the legal system of Mesopotamia, or the thought of Greek philosophers, the numerous religious sects in Rome.

You mean people who are paid full time to think? I don't think you have to have this in order to have complex philosophies and perspectives on life. In fact, I'm certain that's not the case. You don't need a thinking class to have interesting thoughts. North American peoples of circa 5000 BC were largely seasonal foragers; what does a forager have to do all winter aside from thinking, storytelling, and engaging in social life? You either collected enough to last you during the harvest season or not, there isn't a whole lot of work to do when things aren't blooming.

Further, these societies act as a culture where these philosophies can grow and spread. So it's likely that many of the systems of thought throughout history that still exist today originated in major global centres (China, Rome, India).

Ah, the "light in the East". Haven't seen that one trotted out in a while!

 

[rousseau]

I would consult Tainter.

Tainter, Joseph A. (2003), The Collapse of Complex Societies, New York & Cambridge, UK: Cambridge University Press, ISBN 0-521-38673-X

IIRC, he includes Mayan and Chacoan cultures in his examples. Complex civilizations presumably built upon the same sacred traditions as other native Americans.

I think, more closely to the question in the OP: what provoked the axial age. It was that there were societies above a critical mass of population and resources with the ability to propagate their systems of thought.

No, I think it is a 'framing' issue. I tend to think that the whole 'Axial Age' thing smacks of convenient framing for self-congratulations.

I think you were on the right track in terms of getting agreed upon terms. I think we would improve the quality of the discussion by being on the same page as much as possible.

To that end, I have found that Tainter's tome is online in full. See: http://wtf.tw/ref/tainter.pdf

Page 23 begins his discussion of complexity.

Is this adequate?

Yea, there's that too, I agree.

Thanks for the link.

 

[rousseau]

Er... ethnocentrism usually, right? One's own culture or those formally similar to it always seems more "complex" due to greater familiarity with its details, it's a bit like an optical illusion. The viewer sees and understands more of the symbolic set they know best, so it seems fuller and richer than anyone else's perspective.

If we're contrasting the thought of North American Natives circa 5000 BC with certain Christian sects circa 400 AD there is no comparison. But 'complexity' isn't so much what I was trying to highlight as much as that the degree of specialization is tightly tied to how much of it the society it lives in can support. And so a wealthier society is more likely to host specialized systems of thought. Consider the legal system of Mesopotamia, or the thought of Greek philosophers, the numerous religious sects in Rome.

You mean people who are paid full time to think? I don't think you have to have this in order to have complex philosophies and perspectives on life. In fact, I'm certain that's not the case. You don't need a thinking class to have interesting thoughts. North American peoples of circa 5000 BC were largely seasonal foragers; what does a forager have to do all winter aside from thinking, storytelling, and engaging in social life? You either collected enough to last you during the harvest season or not, there isn't a whole lot of work to do when things aren't blooming.

Further, these societies act as a culture where these philosophies can grow and spread. So it's likely that many of the systems of thought throughout history that still exist today originated in major global centres (China, Rome, India).

Ah, the "light in the East". Haven't seen that one trotted out in a while!

Interesting points, thanks.

This conversation is straying a bit from the central point I was making (although I might have led that point astray a bit there) that a bunch of major philosophical systems coming about at a very specific point of time is an issue of population density. Civilisation itself didn't come to exist until after the last ice age, and without going into detail I'm sure those two things are correlated. This would also explain it occurring at roughly the same time, at different regions around the world. Can say the same for agriculture, too.

As a total aside, I don't know a ton about native religious thought but I like the point you made there. I hazard a guess that one of the main problems we have here is that many native societies were pre-literate and the evidence just didn't survive.

 

[Jokodo]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/earth/hi/earth_news/newsid_8127000/8127519.stm

Well how else would these globe spanning colonies make sense?

Titled link: BBC - Earth News - Ant mega-colony takes over world -- There is another hypothesis that makes more sense than living on the ocean floor. That these ants are hitchhikers in cargo shipments and the like.

Sure but that doesn't mean they aren't also capable of creating massive hives that are so big they physically connect to each other from across continents.

Supposedly there are ants at the bottom of the Marianas trench for instance though this is the only link I could find on the subject.

https://scientificenquirer.wordpress.com/2010/10/05/ocean-probe-reveals-underwater-ant-colonies/

So make of this what you will I guess. Looks kinda fake though. /shrug

In either case I think the first link shows that ants can and do globalize alongside us, even if it is just the result of human globalism.

"Looks kinda fake"?

They're not even hiding that it's fake!

From the contrubutors page:

Professor Shifty
Editor an’ Chief
...
Her main interests are unified field theory, wave-particle duality in squirrels, and integrating squirrel wave-particle duality into an otherwise unified field theory
...
Four years of intensive experience as co-captain of her varsity high school Yearbook Team, which placed fifteenth in the preliminary match of the highly competitive Middlesex County Yearbook Olympics, have prepared her for her role of Editor an’ Chief at the Scientific Enquirer.

Dr. Ductor Emdee
Chief Medical Conquistador
Ductor was trained in medicine by his grandmother who had been the chief healer of their village in the small country of Nunsee.
...
He has saved hundreds of lives with the use of his can-opener alone
...

Robert received his undergraduate degree in Science from the Southeast University of Death Valley in 1947. Following graduation, he took up field work in the Sahara Desert. There, he applied technological innovation to improve the quality of the local office facilities, and unionized the employees as the Determined Office Workers of the Saharan Desert (DOWSD). This achievement was Robert’s inspiration for establishing the Ethical Foundation for Humane Ethics, on which he serves as a board member today.
Robert further honed his skills in technology implementation and earned his Certified Technology Technician status from International Post of London. He moved full-time to Europe the following year, and entered into the prestigious Hubertolle Collegatte der-Universitat in Switzerland [I'm not sure whether this name is supposed to be fake French or fake German, but it sure is neither French nor German]

 

[LordKiran]

Sure but that doesn't mean they aren't also capable of creating massive hives that are so big they physically connect to each other from across continents.

Supposedly there are ants at the bottom of the Marianas trench for instance though this is the only link I could find on the subject.

https://scientificenquirer.wordpress.com/2010/10/05/ocean-probe-reveals-underwater-ant-colonies/

So make of this what you will I guess. Looks kinda fake though. /shrug

In either case I think the first link shows that ants can and do globalize alongside us, even if it is just the result of human globalism.

"Looks kinda fake"?

They're not even hiding that it's fake!

From the contrubutors page:

Professor Shifty
Editor an’ Chief
...
Her main interests are unified field theory, wave-particle duality in squirrels, and integrating squirrel wave-particle duality into an otherwise unified field theory
...
Four years of intensive experience as co-captain of her varsity high school Yearbook Team, which placed fifteenth in the preliminary match of the highly competitive Middlesex County Yearbook Olympics, have prepared her for her role of Editor an’ Chief at the Scientific Enquirer.

Dr. Ductor Emdee
Chief Medical Conquistador
Ductor was trained in medicine by his grandmother who had been the chief healer of their village in the small country of Nunsee.
...
He has saved hundreds of lives with the use of his can-opener alone
...

Robert received his undergraduate degree in Science from the Southeast University of Death Valley in 1947. Following graduation, he took up field work in the Sahara Desert. There, he applied technological innovation to improve the quality of the local office facilities, and unionized the employees as the Determined Office Workers of the Saharan Desert (DOWSD). This achievement was Robert’s inspiration for establishing the Ethical Foundation for Humane Ethics, on which he serves as a board member today.
Robert further honed his skills in technology implementation and earned his Certified Technology Technician status from International Post of London. He moved full-time to Europe the following year, and entered into the prestigious Hubertolle Collegatte der-Universitat in Switzerland [I'm not sure whether this name is supposed to be fake French or fake German, but it sure is neither French nor German]

Yeah I guess I was pretty stoned last night. My bad.

 

[whollygoats]

Heh....I can't even.

 

[LordKiran]

Heh....I can't even.

Make complete sentences?

 

[whollygoats]

Heh....I can't even.

Make complete sentences?

Yeah, I'm odd that way.

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

No, I think it is a 'framing' issue. I tend to think that the whole 'Axial' thing smacks of convenient framing for self-congratulations.

I think you were on the right track in terms of getting agreed upon terms.

To that end, I have found that Tainter's tome is onine in full. See: http://wtf.tw/ref/tainter.pdf

Page 23 begins his discussion of complexity.

Is this adequate?

Agreed. Christianity for much of its history teetered between mono and polytheism. With East Orthodoxy's/Roman Catholocism's penchant for declaring patron saints one could think of them as minor gods of sorts. They fit the role in the framework at least.

Lares and penitates. Roman concepts adapted to Christianity.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lares