Wealth of Nations

[ksen]

And that market wage isn't necessarily tied in any way to the value of the work they perform it's instead tied to how easily the firm can replace them.

 

[Trausti]

And that market wage isn't necessarily tied in any way to the value of the work they perform it's instead tied to how easily the firm can replace them.

So acquire skills and make yourself less replaceable.

 

[coloradoatheist]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, people are not paid based upon the value of the job they do but on how easily they can be replaced.

They are paid on a combination of factors, one of which is how many people are willing to do the work. But they are also paid on how much marginal utility someone sees in paying for that job. If janitorial services cost too much per hour, people would do it themselves. It's everybody decision at their own home to clean their own home or pay someone to clean.

 

[ksen]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, people are not paid based upon the value of the job they do but on how easily they can be replaced.

They are paid on a combination of factors, one of which is how many people are willing to do the work. But they are also paid on how much marginal utility someone sees in paying for that job.

Ridiculous. I've been involved with hiring and firing people for a long time and "marginal utility" has never entered into the equation and has never been brought up to me by a superior to use in making my hiring decisions.

 

[coloradoatheist]

They are paid on a combination of factors, one of which is how many people are willing to do the work. But they are also paid on how much marginal utility someone sees in paying for that job.

Ridiculous. I've been involved with hiring and firing people for a long time and "marginal utility" has never entered into the equation and has never been brought up to me by a superior to use in making my hiring decisions.

They do think about marginal utility about the job that is going to be hired for. Not always as specific as you want...but they don't just say...."Hey we think we need to hire someone to do something so let's find someone of the street to be on the books"

 

[ksen]

And that market wage isn't necessarily tied in any way to the value of the work they perform it's instead tied to how easily the firm can replace them.

So acquire skills and make yourself less replaceable.

The point I got from Smith is that these easily replaceable workers are still very valuable to the firm.

And in today's climate they are paid as being easily replaceable instead of for the value of the work they provide.

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Ridiculous. I've been involved with hiring and firing people for a long time and "marginal utility" has never entered into the equation and has never been brought up to me by a superior to use in making my hiring decisions.

They do think about marginal utility about the job that is going to be hired for. Not always as specific as you want...but they don't just say...."Hey we think we need to hire someone to do something so let's find someone of the street to be on the books"

Hold on, I may have just been confusing marginal utility with marginal productivity.

 

[Axulus]

Which tells me that what we call today "unskilled labor" is actually quite valuable to the firm employing them and we've been sold a bill of goods that their labor is not worth much. "Unskilled" does not mean "unvaluable".

And yet this segment of the labor market tends to get hit with a larger proportion of layoffs when a recession hits, while the more expensive workers receive far less layoff notices. How does that square away with your idea of "value"?

 

[ksen]

yeah, go figure.

nm that.

What you said really doesn't contradict what I've taken away from Smith's first three chapters. Are you disagreeing with my take or just saying something to say something?

 

[Axulus]

yeah, go figure.

nm that.

What you said really doesn't contradict what I've taken away from Smith's first three chapters. Are you disagreeing with my take or just saying something to say something?

How are you defining value in a way that is also consistent with unskilled workers both having much higher rates of unemployment in the economy as well as taking the brunt of lob losses when a recession hits, while also getting paid less overall? That was what I was inquiring about.

 

[ksen]

yeah, go figure.

nm that.

What you said really doesn't contradict what I've taken away from Smith's first three chapters. Are you disagreeing with my take or just saying something to say something?

How are you defining value in a way that is also consistent with unskilled workers both having much higher rates of unemployment in the economy as well as taking the brunt of lob losses when a recession hits, while also getting paid less overall? That was what I was inquiring about.

The way I'm defining it it's not consistent with those other things but I don't see that it has to be.

The way I'm defining value, which I've derived from the first three chapters of WoN and Smith's discussion on the division of labor, is that it is more valuable to a company to have more people doing simpler tasks than it is having fewer people doing more tasks since in the former case it is more efficient and leads to less wasted time and more produced products than in the latter case.

That these jobs are normally held by people with little power makes it not surprising that even though their tasks are highly valuable to the company they also bear the brunt of losses during downtimes. That this happens doesn't mean the tasks are not valuable to the firm.

Since this thread is to discuss the WoN I may be able to answer your question more fully once I've read more of the book.

 

[Axulus]

is that it is more valuable to a company to have more people doing simpler tasks than it is having fewer people doing more tasks since in the former case it is more efficient and leads to less wasted time and more produced products than in the latter case.

Ok, I'm with you so far...

their tasks are highly valuable to the company

This is where my confusion arises. They are more valuable to the company doing specialized tasks than not doing it, but then you jump from that to say that they are "highly valuable to the company" - how did you determine how high the value was? What scale are you using? Could it be possible the value is not very high, but having them do generalized tasks instead of specialized tasks would make that non-high value even lower? What criteria are you using to exclude this possibility?

 

[ksen]

This is where my confusion arises. They are more valuable to the company doing specialized tasks than not doing it, but then you jump from that to say that they are "highly valuable to the company" - how did you determine how high the value was? What scale are you using? Could it be possible the value is not very high, but having them do generalized tasks instead of specialized tasks would make that non-high value even lower? What criteria are you using to exclude this possibility?

In WoN Smith starts with a pin manufacturer. For a pin manufacturer it is more valuable to the company to have people making pins than it is to not have people making pins.

It's the same in any industry, it's more valuable having people producing the product/service your company sells than not having people producing the product/service you sell.

 

[Axulus]

This is where my confusion arises. They are more valuable to the company doing specialized tasks than not doing it, but then you jump from that to say that they are "highly valuable to the company" - how did you determine how high the value was? What scale are you using? Could it be possible the value is not very high, but having them do generalized tasks instead of specialized tasks would make that non-high value even lower? What criteria are you using to exclude this possibility?

In WoN Smith starts with a pin manufacturer. For a pin manufacturer it is more valuable to the company to have people making pins than it is to not have people making pins.

It's the same in any industry, it's more valuable having people producing the product/service your company sells than not having people producing the product/service you sell.

This was the part I understood. How did you jump from "more valuable" to "highly valuable"? That's the part where I'm confused.

 

[coloradoatheist]

This is where my confusion arises. They are more valuable to the company doing specialized tasks than not doing it, but then you jump from that to say that they are "highly valuable to the company" - how did you determine how high the value was? What scale are you using? Could it be possible the value is not very high, but having them do generalized tasks instead of specialized tasks would make that non-high value even lower? What criteria are you using to exclude this possibility?

In WoN Smith starts with a pin manufacturer. For a pin manufacturer it is more valuable to the company to have people making pins than it is to not have people making pins.

It's the same in any industry, it's more valuable having people producing the product/service your company sells than not having people producing the product/service you sell.

Huh on the first part? We let somebody else make pins for us because if everybody learns to make pins it costs more per person and we take away time from what we are really good at or want to do. However he would also say that if the value you pay for someone else to make pins is less than you would get from making the pings yourself, you would make pins yourself.

 

[ksen]

In WoN Smith starts with a pin manufacturer. For a pin manufacturer it is more valuable to the company to have people making pins than it is to not have people making pins.

It's the same in any industry, it's more valuable having people producing the product/service your company sells than not having people producing the product/service you sell.

This was the part I understood. How did you jump from "more valuable" to "highly valuable"? That's the part where I'm confused.

Well, it is highly valuable to have products and services to sell yes?

- - - Updated - - -

In WoN Smith starts with a pin manufacturer. For a pin manufacturer it is more valuable to the company to have people making pins than it is to not have people making pins.

It's the same in any industry, it's more valuable having people producing the product/service your company sells than not having people producing the product/service you sell.

Huh on the first part? We let somebody else make pins for us because if everybody learns to make pins it costs more per person and we take away time from what we are really good at or want to do. However he would also say that if the value you pay for someone else to make pins is less than you would get from making the pings yourself, you would make pins yourself.

Maybe you should read the first three chapters. It won't take that long.

 

[Axulus]

This was the part I understood. How did you jump from "more valuable" to "highly valuable"? That's the part where I'm confused.

Well, it is highly valuable to have products and services to sell yes?

Once again, I'm confused on how you are defining "value". I need to know that in order to answer this question, as previously you seemed to be using it as a replacement for productivity or the amount of product produced by the workers. Using that definition, your question above is nonsensical.

 

[ksen]

I can't say it any plainer so I'm not sure what you're looking for.

 

[Axulus]

I can't say it any plainer so I'm not sure what you're looking for.

You have not defined it - the way you are using the term is inconsistent and incoherent.

A worker is "more valuable" to a company if they can produce more product. You are thus saying that value = productivity.

Then you say that having products and services to sell is "highly valuable". Having products and services to sell is highly productive?!? That's incoherent.

 

[ksen]

nah

 

[Axulus]

nah

Do you agree that you are equivocating on definitions, then? Can you clear up my confusion? Why are you unable to definite your terms?