Venezuela - Chronicles in Socialist Success Stories!

[Derec]

What "oligarchs" are you talking about and why would anyone expect any producer or supplier (oligarch or otherwise) to supply the amount of service or output at any price? Really, this boggles the mind.

And, if these "oligarchs" and the US are determined to make things as bad as possible, why on earth would any "socialist" gov't play along?

Where is our laughing dog and what have you done with him?

 

[Trausti]

What "oligarchs" are you talking about and why would anyone expect any producer or supplier (oligarch or otherwise) to supply the amount of service or output at any price? Really, this boggles the mind.

And, if these "oligarchs" and the US are determined to make things as bad as possible, why on earth would any "socialist" gov't play along?

The government does not have total control because it is a mixed economy not an entirely Socialist economy.

You have one part of the economy trying to make things as bad as possible by creating artificial shortages.

It is a difficult situation to deal with.

It costs me 3X to deliver a product or service but the government says I can only charge 1X or 2X for it. You don't think that might cause problems?

 

[Trausti]

Not capitalism, per se. But incentive and competition. If it has to be imposed by the state through force, it's not nature. China is a good example of this. After it abandoned five-year plans and let the people make their own economic decisions, the qualify of life for the average Chinese became exponentially better.

Incentive and competition isn't restricted to just capitalist systems.

Didn't say they were. But when you remove them the economy will inevitably stagnate and decline. For all its touting of the superiority of socialism, the limited private enterprise permitted by the Soviet Union vastly outproduced the giant state-directed collective sector.

 

[untermensche]

The government does not have total control because it is a mixed economy not an entirely Socialist economy.

You have one part of the economy trying to make things as bad as possible by creating artificial shortages.

It is a difficult situation to deal with.

It costs me 3X to deliver a product or service but the government says I can only charge 1X or 2X for it. You don't think that might cause problems?

Certainly. Now show me this was the case.

The truth is I don't really care for the way Venezuela has moved since Chavez died.

But the truth is also that this is not some unmolested economy faltering. It is an economy under constant attack from within and without faltering.

 

[Derec]

The truth is I don't really care for the way Venezuela has moved since Chavez died.

Since Chavez died and the bus driver took over Venezuela has continued on the same course charted by Chavez. Maduro has neither the intellect nor any apparent desire to change the course. Like that saying: yesterday we stood on the brink of a disaster but today we have made a major step forward.

 

[untermensche]

The truth is I don't really care for the way Venezuela has moved since Chavez died.

Since Chavez died and the bus driver took over Venezuela has continued on the same course charted by Chavez. Maduro has neither the intellect nor any apparent desire to change the course. Like that saying: yesterday we stood on the brink of a disaster but today we have made a major step forward.

That is debatable. But one thing they both faced is a massive assault on the economy from within and without.

Remove these economic attacks and we don't know what Venezuela would look like but it certainly would be better.

 

[coloradoatheist]

Since Chavez died and the bus driver took over Venezuela has continued on the same course charted by Chavez. Maduro has neither the intellect nor any apparent desire to change the course. Like that saying: yesterday we stood on the brink of a disaster but today we have made a major step forward.

That is debatable. But one thing they both faced is a massive assault on the economy from within and without.

Remove these economic attacks and we don't know what Venezuela would look like but it certainly would be better.

You keep complaining about internal strife within countries/places that try and implement socialism. The attempt at socialism will create internal strife.

 

[untermensche]

That is debatable. But one thing they both faced is a massive assault on the economy from within and without.

Remove these economic attacks and we don't know what Venezuela would look like but it certainly would be better.

You keep complaining about internal strife within countries/places that try and implement socialism. The attempt at socialism will create internal strife.

How many times was Chavez elected?

If people reject Socialism why was he so popular?

 

[SimpleDon]

Now that the glorious Cuban revolution is about to be sullied by capitalist wreckers, and the Castros are becoming agents of western imperialism, for entertainment we must turn to the last promise of Socialist Utopia - the stewards of a sea of oil and the Bolivarian revolution of the Chavezistas:

The lines have never been worse.

In Venezuela, they’ve been around for years and begin in the wee hours—queues at supermarkets and department stores for basic goods like toilet paper and rice.
But this month, the lines have become longer and the waiting times have increased. People’s lives now revolve around standing in lines. They sleep on the streets to be the first in line to buy car batteries, laundry soap, tampons, and milk. They schedule their meals around being in line. Men and women of all ages now make their living by standing in line for others at 2am or earlier. They charge from $3 to $7 for each product they will buy on someone’s behalf.

Why so bad? Plunging oil prices only made inflation worse, and there’s a lack of foreign currency, among other issues.

“In terms of shortages, this is the worst I’ve seen,” says David Smilde, a senior fellow at the Washington Office on Latin America, a US think tank that studies the region, in an interview from Caracas. “And what’s different this time around is that at this point the people that are most affected are the poor. ...

The situation has led to a rise in crime due to the exorbitant prices at which most goods are sold in the black market. The difference between official prices and market prices is currently more than 560%, according to a recent study. (Meat and poultry prices are well over 1,000% what they should be.)

On Jan. 9, an armed commando of four robbers stormed the Día a Día supermarket in La Vega, Caracas. They stole the money in the cash registers and fled on their motorcycles carrying as many tuna cans and bags of sugar and flour as they could carry. One day earlier, in the port city of Catia, an unknown number of assailants ransacked a truck and left the scene with 92 kg (203 lbs) of cold meats. Two days before, in the same city, 15 people stopped and looted two trucks filled with bread and other products from the Bimbo brand.

You know they have arrived when they their economy challenges the one true benchmark of "successful" socialism - ration lines for food. Lenin must be smiling.

http://qz.com/330119/long-lines-for-milk-and-tampons-are-sinking-venezuelas-government/

I have read through the entire thread and I have a few questions.

I don't see any conclusions drawn from the OP. It is certain that Venezuela is in poor economic health. And that before Chavez came to power the rewards from the economy were poorly distributed. Do they have to choose between these two extremes? Is there no middle ground?

What economy do you believe is the proper model for a developing economy? Mexico, China, Chile? Russia?

How about Russia. They were advised to institute a free market economy, to privatize everything as quickly as possible to allow the market to bestow its bounty on Russia. How did that work out in your estimation?

 

[dismal]

Not capitalism, per se. But incentive and competition. If it has to be imposed by the state through force, it's not nature. China is a good example of this. After it abandoned five-year plans and let the people make their own economic decisions, the qualify of life for the average Chinese became exponentially better.

Incentive and competition isn't restricted to just capitalist systems.

What's your take on Venezuela ksen?

Everything is going great?

Or, if you think there are problems what do you think is causing them?

Any less than ideal government policies that might be contributing?

 

[untermensche]

How about Russia. They were advised to institute a free market economy, to privatize everything as quickly as possible to allow the market to bestow its bounty on Russia. How did that work out in your estimation?

And both Venezuela and Russia have economies dependent on oil.

And both are suffering because oil speculators have driven the price downward.

In other words, because of factors beyond their control.

 

[ksen]

Incentive and competition isn't restricted to just capitalist systems.

What's your take on Venezuela ksen?

I haven't been following Venezuela closely so I don't really have a take right now.

Everything is going great?

Doesn't seem to be. Was it all that great before?

Or, if you think there are problems what do you think is causing them?

Any less than ideal government policies that might be contributing?

Why the focus only on government policies? Couldn't private actors be contributing to the problems too?

 

[Trausti]

How about Russia. They were advised to institute a free market economy, to privatize everything as quickly as possible to allow the market to bestow its bounty on Russia. How did that work out in your estimation?

Having had the opportunity to live in Russia in the first decade after the collapse of the Soviet Union, only the pensioners wanted to turn back the clock. Even today. Those who long for the past long for the time when Russia had the status of a superpower. Hurt pride. Nearly no one (sure there's someone somewhere) is advocating that the economic system of 30 years ago is superior to that of today. Russia suffers, or suffered, from true oligarchy and a massive brain drain of people voting with their feet and moving to the evil capitalist west.

 

[Sphincterboy]

That is debatable. But one thing they both faced is a massive assault on the economy from within and without.

Remove these economic attacks and we don't know what Venezuela would look like but it certainly would be better.

You keep complaining about internal strife within countries/places that try and implement socialism. The attempt at socialism will create internal strife.

Then why the attacks? If the Socialist experiment is doomed to fail anyway, why not let it fail on it's own merits? This is analogous to the situation in Chile in the early 70's with the famous quote "Make the economy scream". The "strife" being referred to here is the petulance of one sector of the population reacting to being forced to play on the same level as everyone else.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Venezuela has a capitalist economy.

And before Chavez had control millions were worse off than they are now.

Capitalist??? We are seeing these problems because the government is messing with private enterprise!

 

[dismal]

What's your take on Venezuela ksen?

I haven't been following Venezuela closely so I don't really have a take right now.

Everything is going great?

Doesn't seem to be. Was it all that great before?

Or, if you think there are problems what do you think is causing them?

Any less than ideal government policies that might be contributing?

Why the focus only on government policies? Couldn't private actors be contributing to the problems too?

Well, the government has done a number of things that basic economic textbooks predict will have negative consequences and they have had just the exact sort of negative consequences the textbooks would predict.

Since you are generally an advocate of the sorts of policies basic economic textbooks predict will have negative consequences I was curious to know your thoughts.

 

[untermensche]

You keep complaining about internal strife within countries/places that try and implement socialism. The attempt at socialism will create internal strife.

Then why the attacks? If the Socialist experiment is doomed to fail anyway, why not let it fail on it's own merits? This is analogous to the situation in Chile in the early 70's with the famous quote "Make the economy scream". The "strife" being referred to here is the petulance of one sector of the population reacting to being forced to play on the same level as everyone else.

This is a good point.

The attacks are not because the system is bad. The attacks are to ensure the system does not succeed because it is doing good for people the other system never helped or cared for.

 

[dismal]

How about Russia. They were advised to institute a free market economy, to privatize everything as quickly as possible to allow the market to bestow its bounty on Russia. How did that work out in your estimation?

And both Venezuela and Russia have economies dependent on oil.

And both are suffering because oil speculators have driven the price downward.

In other words, because of factors beyond their control.

Venezuela's economy has been going into the crapper since long before oil prices fell.

This is just those last couple swirls down the bowl where it starts to spin really fast.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

It's a mixed economy. As much Socialist as Capitalist.

And of course some forget how bad it was in Venezuela for millions, mostly the indigenous non-white population, before Chavez.

View attachment 2106

Child malnutrition

View attachment 2105

Inflation

http://www.cepr.net/index.php/blogs/the-americas-blog/venezuelan-economic-and-social-performance-under-hugo-chavez-in-graphs

Somehow I think they are taking government stats as truth.

- - - Updated - - -

Interior Minister Carmen Melendez on state television told folks not to worry "The stores are full”. (You can't make this stuff up).

What do think is this cause of this one store with no items on the shelves?

You don't see one store with shelves that barren. When one store is sold out to that degree other stores of that general type will be in a similar shape.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The statistics on inflation come from the Central Bank of Venezuela.

Where do yours come from?

I could pull better stats out of my ass than their Potemkin stats.

- - - Updated - - -

The socialist government has been undermining and "nationalizing" the private sector ever since Chavez took power.

Before Chavez the nation was a third world oligarchy where millions had zero opportunity because of their ethnicity.

All we are seeing in Venezuela is the way the oligarchy reacts to attempts to end this.

They murder people in the streets then use it as an excuse to try to remove elected leaders with force.

They shut down oil production to try to destroy the economy.

And now they continue to try to destroy the economy through manufactured shortages.

The problem in Venezuela is that the old oligarchy still has too much power, not too much socialism.

What we are seeing now is the oligarchy being replaced with Chavez cronies, the lot of the average person is not improved.