Truck driven down NYC bike path

[Brian63]

Nobody here has offended me. Your behavior worries me and disgusts me, but it does not offend me. Try another angle.

Brian

 

[blastula]

Grrr....

So you deny that white people are terrorists?

I am not making a statement at all on that issue. The statement that I am actually making is that if you really want to discuss the issue, then it is fine to discuss the issue. Go ahead, absolutely. Just do not use a violent attack on people as opportunity to put on a clown face to make fun of other people.

What has been happening in this thread is not just a discussion, it is not any kind of analysis of various policy proposals and their ramifications.

What has been happening in this thread is that people are making fun of other people.

Suppose someone who was personally themselves affected by this terror attack, either a direct victim themselves or as a friend to someone who was directly killed, for instance. Would you still be here in front of that person making the same sort of usual jokes about Republicans that we always hear? Probably not, you would realize that you were being a complete asshole if you did so. Maybe some posters on this forum actually were personally impacted by this attack. I do not know either way. Making all sorts of satirical jokes about politicians and seeing this violent and gruesome attack as just another opportunity to pile on more, is sick.

So yet again, it is necessary to debate various sorts of issues and policies and laws. What is not necessary is to see this violent horrible attack as an opportunity to just laugh at those politicians you disagree with. Make a case for whatever policy you want, make a case for how to bring about the policy. That is all well and good. If all you are going to do though is laugh, then you should just shut the hell up.

Brian

There isn't a moral problem with attacking positions which is what is going on here. None of the posts were mocking the victims. A joke can morally be made about any topic. What matters is the target of the joke.

Yes, he is. I don't completely agree with him on this, but one thing I can say is that he's a good guy.

Thank you for that.

I am all for people using jokes, satire, parodying politicians for things that they do. Just also recognize that sometimes people do bad things that politicians were not involved in. It is just the people themselves who did the bad thing. Using this as an opportunity to make jokes about politicians is not what our response should be to any kind of horrific event like this, when those politicians did not even cause the tragedy. Criticize them for what they actually do wrong, not things that you want them to do wrong because then it would give you an opportunity to get in a funny joke, all at the expense of the people who did actually suffer. That is just a sick world we live in, if that is what we are becoming.

Brian

There's also nothing morally wrong with attacking a politician's positions about an issue, which is what is going on here too.

 

[Brian63]

Right, they were not mocking the victims. The comments were *exploiting* the victims, however. It was using the suffering of other people to get in verbal jokes towards politicians who did not cause this event. Criticize the politicians for what they actually do wrong, not what we want them to do wrong so that we can get a good laugh out of the whole tragedy.

Brian

 

[Underseer]

Right, they were not mocking the victims. The comments were *exploiting* the victims, however. It was using the suffering of other people to get in verbal jokes towards politicians who did not cause this event. Criticize the politicians for what they actually do wrong, not what we want them to do wrong so that we can get a good laugh out of the whole tragedy.

Brian

Really?

Because after the terrorist killings in Charlottesville, I remember plenty of white people mocking the victims, and even argued that they deserved to die because they weren't on the sidewalk.

Please learn what a "special pleading fallacy" is before you try another one. You know damn well what's wrong with the logic of the arguments you are using, but in case you're not, then you shouldn't have any problem with my arguments.



Speaking of which, all white people are dangerous drug addicts. Did you notice that it was white politicians who passed the laws that made it easier for more white people to get their hands on dangerous drugs?

 

[Underseer]

http://www.motherjones.com/politics...f-cars-plowing-through-protesters-in-january/

Here's an article about the white media celebrating an act of terrorism. Ha ha! Those stupid people who don't agree with us politically got what they deserved! Ha ha! This is how white people justify and encourage each other to commit even more acts of terrorism, but I'm not allowed to talk about that because saying so is politically incorrect.

 

[Underseer]

I wanted to post the video itself, but the video got deleted because it's proof that white people love terrorism.

From the article:

Here’s a compilation of liberal protesters getting pushed out of the way by cars and trucks. Study the technique; it may prove useful in the next four years.

Image taken from the celebratory video encouraging other white people to run over human beings for political reasons.

 

[blastula]

Right, they were not mocking the victims. The comments were *exploiting* the victims, however. It was using the suffering of other people to get in verbal jokes towards politicians who did not cause this event. Criticize the politicians for what they actually do wrong, not what we want them to do wrong so that we can get a good laugh out of the whole tragedy.

You're straining very hard to find something wrong here, and by your haughty standards, it could be said you are exploiting the tragedy solely to prop up your own grandstanding.

 

[Brian63]

Because after the terrorist killings in Charlottesville, I remember plenty of white people mocking the victims, and even argued that they deserved to die because they weren't on the sidewalk.

Then go ahead, and definitely criticize anyone who mocks or exploits any victims. I am not saying they are right when they do it and you are wrong when you do it. I am saying you are both wrong when you do it.

I just expected more sincere compassion and decency out of our own liberal and secular community than I have out of the conservative religious/political community. It looks like I was wrong though, and both sides are filled with assholes galore.

Brian

 

[bilby]

Because after the terrorist killings in Charlottesville, I remember plenty of white people mocking the victims, and even argued that they deserved to die because they weren't on the sidewalk.

Then go ahead, and definitely criticize anyone who mocks or exploits any victims. I am not saying they are right when they do it and you are wrong when you do it. I am saying you are both wrong when you do it.

I just expected more sincere compassion and decency out of our own liberal and secular community than I have out of the conservative religious/political community. It looks like I was wrong though, and both sides are filled with assholes galore.

Brian

This comes as a surprise to you?

Is this your first day?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

View attachment 12964

After crashing the truck, he got out and was holding pellet guns. A cop shot him in stomach.

I thought standard police procedure was to shoot to kill. Is this police officer suspended pending an investigation into failure to follow procedure?

Standard police procedure is to shoot to stop. Except in case of sharpshooters that means aiming center mass. Under the stress of such a situation that's usually the best that can be expected. Sometimes the bad guy has suffered lethal injury by the time he goes down, sometimes he hasn't.

 

[Brian63]

This comes as a surprise to you?

Is this your first day?

I have met plenty of atheists in other venues who actually are more sympathetic to people who
suffer, and want to and work to prevent any more suffering. Those people do not use horrific tragedies as a punchline to jokes they make. This crowd has just gone too far.



If you want people to agree with you on more substantive ideas and views that you hold, it helps your own credibility if you do not use and exploit any kind of tragic event to that end. Criticize (and make fun of) the people when they actually do the bad things. Do not criticize (and make fun of) things that they did not actually do, but you do not see the actual suffering of others as an opportunity to make a good joke. It makes you look sick, on top of actually being sick.

Brian

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Jeez, how many terrorist attacks have taken place under Donald Trump's watch? When is he going to get off Twitter (and Hillary) and do something?

Be fair, Trump did say the magic words "radical Islamic terrorism" over and over. Who knows why it did not stop this guy. Trump told us he alone has the secret plan that will defeat Isis, but he didn't say how long it would take. Be fair.

Because His Flatulence is a very poor wizard and doesn't have any idea of how to actually cast a Dispel Islam spell.

 

[bilby]

This comes as a surprise to you?

Is this your first day?

I have met plenty of atheists in other venues who actually are more sympathetic to people who
suffer, and want to and work to prevent any more suffering. Those people do not use horrific tragedies as a punchline to jokes they make. This crowd has just gone too far.



If you want people to agree with you on more substantive ideas and views that you hold, it helps your own credibility if you do not use and exploit any kind of tragic event to that end. Criticize (and make fun of) the people when they actually do the bad things. Do not criticize (and make fun of) things that they did not actually do, but you do not see the actual suffering of others as an opportunity to make a good joke. It makes you look sick, on top of actually being sick.

Brian

You have met plenty of atheists HERE who actually are more sympathetic to people who suffer, and want to and work to prevent any more suffering.

Oddly, your employment of a hasty generalization fallacy to make this about the entire atheist membership of this venue not only represents an excellent example of the error people here are arguing against, but also points the finger at yourself as to blame for the behaviour you condemn - which was, I am sure, not your intention.

You are being very silly indeed. People have always used horrific tragedies as a punchline to jokes; It is a way of coping with horror.

Your appeals for 'seriousness' are both futile and, were they to succeed, counterproductive. Meanwhile your complaints about 'This crowd' are hypocritical - if you are seeking to avoid 'finger-pointing' by naming the particular posts and posters you are upset about, then you are not only failing, you are actually making things worse through your passive-aggressive stance, by making your complaint about everyone - including yourself - rather than about the small number of people with whom you have a grievance.

 

[Brian63]

So much of what happens, here and everywhere, is not about actually reducing violence and suffering in the world. It is about using violence and suffering as pieces in a game that people want to win against other players.

On the surface that is probably fun, but those people should just learn to grow up instead.

Brian

 

[bilby]

So much of what happens, here and everywhere, is not about actually reducing violence and suffering in the world. It is about using violence and suffering as pieces in a game that people want to win against other players.

On the surface that is probably fun, but those people should just learn to grow up instead.

Brian

This comes as a surprise to you?

Is this your first day?

 

[RavenSky]

Gotta say here---

The responses on this thread are so far overwhelmingly sick. This was a real violent act intentionally carried out, apparently for some sort of terrorist/religious/political agenda. This is something that really happened, and real people were really hurt. It is disgusting as an isolated incident by itself, but even moreso as this is a signal of more likely to come, with more terror and violence imposed on more people. Stop using it as a reflex opportunity to just berate or parody Trump and conservatives. This is not something that they did, or could have prevented. Do not pin it on them. If I am wrong there and you think Republicans can and should have prevented this attack, then present your rationale for that, and what they should do in response. Just stop being a jackass in a very disturbing and traumatic time.

Brian

It appears a rule or guide to the effect that the ethnicity and beliefs of the terrorist are a direct indication of how concerned we should be. A drunk? no concern. Road rage? bit more. White alt-right? maybe more, depending on who you ask. But a Muslim? Pull out all the stops: immigration bans, deportations, laws banning sharia, bombing, wars etc. Which is ironic, because that's exactly the response Muslim extremists want.

Sorry if you can't see any absurdity in that. Some of us do, and that's what evidently appears to you as sickness. It's a separate issue from the victims, who are equally unjustly dead no matter who killed them.

I second everything Horatio said

 

[RavenSky]

No it is not absurd to present a legal or policy case for a certain law that you think should be implemented. It is not absurd to see a particular terror attack as a strong motive to push for new policies. What is absurd is to use a terrible tragedy to make the same usual jokes and fun of people. If you want to present a case for some policy, then that is fine. Just stop being a jackass while you do it. Treat it a serious matter. It is a serious matter.

Brian

Just curious, are you making this same finger-wagging speech at the people ridiculing calls for gun control in the face of Las Vegas?

 

[RavenSky]

... Brian

Oh please! You are the one politicizing this event. 8 Americans died yesterday at the hands of this terrorist. On average, 315 Americans are shot each day. There are 44 Americans murdered each day. Where are the calls to fix this? It is the right that uses terrorist incidents to gain power. And I will call it out each time I see it.

^^^ That

This attack occurs, the White House wants to treat the attacker as an "enemy combatant" which is alt-right for "fuck jurisprudence". Trump wants to modify immigration law. Not a damn thing changed after Las Vegas. So yeah, this whole 'we aren't taking it seriously enough' thing really is bullshit. No one here is happy or indifferent for what happened. There is anger at the attacker and the Republican Party that looks to take advantage of this.

^^^ and that

 

[RavenSky]

Oh please! You are the one politicizing this event. 8 Americans died yesterday at the hands of this terrorist. On average, 315 Americans are shot each day. There are 44 Americans murdered each day. Where are the calls to fix this? It is the right that uses terrorist incidents to gain power. And I will call it out each time I see it.

If you want to call them out, then call them out. For the gazillionth time now, I am fully supportive of people advocating preferred policies, including in the time of horrible atrocities. Call your local representatives. Run for office yourself. Do anything and everything to support your view, except when you are seeing the tragedy as an opportunity to be an asshole and get away with it.

Brian

How about you get off your high horse and quit telling people what/when/where/how to react to situations. You really don't need to see this tragedy and people's individual reactions to it as an opportunity to be an asshole.

 

[Brian63]

No it is not absurd to present a legal or policy case for a certain law that you think should be implemented. It is not absurd to see a particular terror attack as a strong motive to push for new policies. What is absurd is to use a terrible tragedy to make the same usual jokes and fun of people. If you want to present a case for some policy, then that is fine. Just stop being a jackass while you do it. Treat it a serious matter. It is a serious matter.

Brian

Just curious, are you making this same finger-wagging speech at the people ridiculing calls for gun control in the face of Las Vegas?

No, I am "finger-wagging" at the people who are members of my online community who are being jackasses. There are idiots and assholes all around everywhere, but this is the place that is my online "home." It is so disturbing to see people in any place who are jackasses, but even more among the people that I have often considered my online friends.

I expect to see jackasses when I get involved in debates with conservatives and fundies. When fellow liberals and atheists also become jackasses though, there is a sense of betrayal as well.

Brian