Too Much Policing in Black Neighborhoods

[untermensche]

Cartoon? Meme actually, and since I am talking to a mental 3rd grader ...

As expected from somebody unable to make out the incredibly difficult:

"Exponentially greater"

It's not the issue of me unable to make it out. It's an issue of it not meaning what you think it means.

You do know what the word "greater" means?

That is not the issue. You are confusing "exponentially" with "greater by orders of magnitude" which you should be using.

You have a very limited understanding of language.

Probably at the root of your problems.

 

[Derec]

You have a very limited understanding of language.

Actually you do, since you are using it wrong.
Again, why are you so resistant to learning something?

 

[untermensche]

You have a very limited understanding of language.

Actually you do, since you are using it wrong.
Again, why are you so resistant to learning something?

You have a very non-imaginative conception of language. You think there are rules beyond understanding.

An authoritarian nature in regard to language.

Not an understanding.

And this is a common phrase.

Exponentially greater: To be greater in an exponential manner.

It is really no more complicated than that.

 

[Mumbles]

Through the end of the day Friday, Chicago had seen 475 murders – just six less than in all of last year, according to police department statistics. The city has already exceeded last year’s total number of gun-related homicides, with 430.

As violence rises, an increasing number of shootings and murders are going unsolved. Through 28 August, the police department had only made arrests in 73 of the nearly 2,000 non-fatal shooting incidents so far this year – or just under 4%, according to a department spokesman.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/sep/04/chicago-gun-violence-unsolved-murders-deadly-year

With the continued righteous efforts of Black Lives Matter, we can get that 4% to 0%.

What, exactly, did BLM do to cause this problem?

Create mistrust of police? Nope, that's been around for...I don't even know how long.

Cause cops to shoot and kill black people, or shrug their shoulders at a murder? Also no, they're a response to that.

Did they fund drug raids far above homicide detectives, who often point out that they can't pay for witness protection? Nope, they're mostly too young for that one (Did you even know about this problem?).

 

[Trausti]

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/sep/04/chicago-gun-violence-unsolved-murders-deadly-year

With the continued righteous efforts of Black Lives Matter, we can get that 4% to 0%.

What, exactly, did BLM do to cause this problem?

Create mistrust of police? Nope, that's been around for...I don't even know how long.

Cause cops to shoot and kill black people, or shrug their shoulders at a murder? Also no, they're a response to that.

Did they fund drug raids far above homicide detectives, who often point out that they can't pay for witness protection? Nope, they're mostly too young for that one (Did you even know about this problem?).

I'd say they've created a lot of distrust between the police and the public. They've also demoralized cops from doing their jobs. And the extraordinarily high homicide and non-fatal shooting rate is not because of cops.

“For more than a year now, Chicago Police officers have been facing another level of disrespect, the likes of which I’ve not seen in my 36 years,” FOP President Dean Angelo said, talking to a lunchtime crowd at the City Club of Chicago.

Angelo, saying the city is on course to register 700 homicides in 2016, noted that in some parts of the city, “nearly every contact with the public is met with a level of confrontation.”

In some cases, people will “bait” police officers, “literally calling them every name in the book,” in the hopes of getting them to react for a cell phone video, Angelo said. They are looking for a “pay day,” Angelo said.

http://chicago.suntimes.com/news/fop-president-says-cops-demoralized-baited-by-public/

When you vilify law enforcement and create blood libels like "hands up, don't shoot," that's going to have an effect.

 

[Derec]

In some cases, people will “bait” police officers, “literally calling them every name in the book,” in the hopes of getting them to react for a cell phone video, Angelo said. They are looking for a “pay day,” Angelo said.

This last part is a direct consequence of Chicago government being too quick to pay out ridiculously large settlements.

 

[Jarhyn]

At any rate, the number of people harmed makes little to no difference so long as they are: 1.) Harming only themselves, 2.) Paying the costs for any future medical care they may need to the proportion that the average user of the drug would end up needing it, and 3.) Made aware of the nature of risks for which they are already paying.

I would agree with this, but point numbers 1, 2, and 3 are all questionable at best in many cases. You don't harm only yourself when you destroy yourself with drugs. You harm your family, anyone who relies on you, anyone who cares about you, and possibly children who are modeling after you. You don't pay the costs of all future medical care yourself, even if you live in the USA where there isn't universal health care. You still suck up medical resources and drive prices for them up through higher demand. And people are often NOT made aware of the nature of risks involved, both because they are not fully researched and because these drugs come from sources that don't provide much of a warranty.

A little pot isn't likely to hurt you all that much. But cocaine and other hard drugs can do some serious damage, both to you, and to those around you.

I'd forward the argument that a person's family at best hurts *themselves*, and this is neither the fault of or concern of someone who uses drugs. The same could be said for any situation in which an adult is reliant on another adult in a way that does not involve some contractual obligation. Arguably, the one exception to this may be where children are involved. Generally, however, self destruction due to drug use is a symptom of lack of healthier options for improving a person's life, and as such, is a symptom and not the disease.

As to your other arguments, they only hold water when the drugs are illegal and thus pushed into black markets, or when they are not taxed appropriately to ameliorate the costs of treatment, or when people are not properly educated as to the nature of the drug they are considering taking.

This means building a culture where people can consult with a doctor for a recreational prescription, where they pay taxes on the drugs they buy to the extent that those drugs incur those costs, and where they are educated at a tender age not about sensational horrors or mechanical facts, but given honest answers about specific substances without judgement for seeking those answers. These are things that can be started today, for the most part.

 

[laughing dog]

I'd say they've created a lot of distrust between the police and the public.

Are saying that the BLM created this distrust out of thin air or that they simply have somehow increased it? And your basis for this is your detailed knowledge of Chicago or...?

 

[Mumbles]

What, exactly, did BLM do to cause this problem?

Create mistrust of police? Nope, that's been around for...I don't even know how long.

Cause cops to shoot and kill black people, or shrug their shoulders at a murder? Also no, they're a response to that.

Did they fund drug raids far above homicide detectives, who often point out that they can't pay for witness protection? Nope, they're mostly too young for that one (Did you even know about this problem?).

I'd say they've created a lot of distrust between the police and the public. They've also demoralized cops from doing their jobs. And the extraordinarily high homicide and non-fatal shooting rate is not because of cops.

“For more than a year now, Chicago Police officers have been facing another level of disrespect, the likes of which I’ve not seen in my 36 years,” FOP President Dean Angelo said, talking to a lunchtime crowd at the City Club of Chicago.

Angelo, saying the city is on course to register 700 homicides in 2016, noted that in some parts of the city, “nearly every contact with the public is met with a level of confrontation.”

In some cases, people will “bait” police officers, “literally calling them every name in the book,” in the hopes of getting them to react for a cell phone video, Angelo said. They are looking for a “pay day,” Angelo said.

http://chicago.suntimes.com/news/fop-president-says-cops-demoralized-baited-by-public/

When you vilify law enforcement and create blood libels like "hands up, don't shoot," that's going to have an effect.

I'd have put it on CPD's habit of simply disappearing people, and their recently-ended (?) habit of outright torturing them, had quite a bit more of a negative effect on their rep. than people protesting shootings.

 

[Jarhyn]

What, exactly, did BLM do to cause this problem?

Create mistrust of police? Nope, that's been around for...I don't even know how long.

Cause cops to shoot and kill black people, or shrug their shoulders at a murder? Also no, they're a response to that.

Did they fund drug raids far above homicide detectives, who often point out that they can't pay for witness protection? Nope, they're mostly too young for that one (Did you even know about this problem?).

I'd say they've created a lot of distrust between the police and the public. They've also demoralized cops from doing their jobs. And the extraordinarily high homicide and non-fatal shooting rate is not because of cops.

“For more than a year now, Chicago Police officers have been facing another level of disrespect, the likes of which I’ve not seen in my 36 years,” FOP President Dean Angelo said, talking to a lunchtime crowd at the City Club of Chicago.

Angelo, saying the city is on course to register 700 homicides in 2016, noted that in some parts of the city, “nearly every contact with the public is met with a level of confrontation.”

In some cases, people will “bait” police officers, “literally calling them every name in the book,” in the hopes of getting them to react for a cell phone video, Angelo said. They are looking for a “pay day,” Angelo said.

http://chicago.suntimes.com/news/fop-president-says-cops-demoralized-baited-by-public/

When you vilify law enforcement and create blood libels like "hands up, don't shoot," that's going to have an effect.

The violence and high shooting rate is a direct result of the drug war, and the distrust is the direct result of police enforcing that drug war on poor neighborhoods. The way to stop the violence is to make the violence unnecessary and unprofitable.

 

[Trausti]

I'd say they've created a lot of distrust between the police and the public. They've also demoralized cops from doing their jobs. And the extraordinarily high homicide and non-fatal shooting rate is not because of cops.

“For more than a year now, Chicago Police officers have been facing another level of disrespect, the likes of which I’ve not seen in my 36 years,” FOP President Dean Angelo said, talking to a lunchtime crowd at the City Club of Chicago.

Angelo, saying the city is on course to register 700 homicides in 2016, noted that in some parts of the city, “nearly every contact with the public is met with a level of confrontation.”

In some cases, people will “bait” police officers, “literally calling them every name in the book,” in the hopes of getting them to react for a cell phone video, Angelo said. They are looking for a “pay day,” Angelo said.

http://chicago.suntimes.com/news/fop-president-says-cops-demoralized-baited-by-public/

When you vilify law enforcement and create blood libels like "hands up, don't shoot," that's going to have an effect.

The violence and high shooting rate is a direct result of the drug war, and the distrust is the direct result of police enforcing that drug war on poor neighborhoods. The way to stop the violence is to make the violence unnecessary and unprofitable.

M'kay.

Elderly Chicago Man Shot, Robbed While Watering His Lawn in Broad Daylight

http://abcnews.go.com/US/caught-camera-elderly-chicago-man-shot-robbed-watering/story?id=41937412

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

This means building a culture where people can consult with a doctor for a recreational prescription, where they pay taxes on the drugs they buy to the extent that those drugs incur those costs, and where they are educated at a tender age not about sensational horrors or mechanical facts, but given honest answers about specific substances without judgement for seeking those answers. These are things that can be started today, for the most part.

It would help, especially with less dangerous drugs like Pot, etc. But my points remain for harder drugs. You would still suck up the medical resources (especially in a universal health care system, which I support), and even if the resources where there for people to educate themselves about the drugs they are taking (with doctors they pay for and are somehow not diverted from other patients that need them), how many people would do so? And do we truly KNOW all of the effects of these drugs? A lot of the newer ones are still a bit of a question mark.

 

[Derec]

M'kay.

Elderly Chicago Man Shot, Robbed While Watering His Lawn in Broad Daylight

http://abcnews.go.com/US/caught-camera-elderly-chicago-man-shot-robbed-watering/story?id=41937412

I guess this is what his lawn looked like.

 

[Trausti]

This means building a culture where people can consult with a doctor for a recreational prescription, where they pay taxes on the drugs they buy to the extent that those drugs incur those costs, and where they are educated at a tender age not about sensational horrors or mechanical facts, but given honest answers about specific substances without judgement for seeking those answers. These are things that can be started today, for the most part.

It would help, especially with less dangerous drugs like Pot, etc. But my points remain for harder drugs. You would still suck up the medical resources (especially in a universal health care system, which I support), and even if the resources where there for people to educate themselves about the drugs they are taking (with doctors they pay for and are somehow not diverted from other patients that need them), how many people would do so? And do we truly KNOW all of the effects of these drugs? A lot of the newer ones are still a bit of a question mark.

China fought/lost two wars to stop the societal decay caused by hard drugs.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

What is the difference between selling crack and selling a cigarette?

Oh yeah, crack causes exponentially less harm.

Really? Care to back that up with sources? Also, it is meaningless and absurd to use "exponentially" to compare two data points.

Sorry, but he's right.

Once you remove the deaths due to impurity (which would not exist if drugs were legal and produced under proper conditions) tobacco is clearly the most dangerous drug out there, killing 1/3 of it's users in time. Next in line isn't so clear cut (trying to remove the crap from the data is hard) but it looks like alcohol is in the #2 spot.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

What I find most disappointing about that problem is that it is entirely legal, and not only is it legal, it's fucking dirt cheap if you have health insurance through your employer and can thus afford to get a doctor who prescribes it. That shit costs FAR less than crack, even shitty crack, on a per-dose basis. It costs about 3 dollars to get high on oxy, even uninsured. At lest on cocaine (crack or blow) you wanna actually do shit. Even with nicotine there's a general social aspect to it, everyone relaxing and chatting while they smoke/vape/whatever. Oxy, though, is just fucking pointless. It numbs you, and while it can feel good to be numb, it's just a fucking trap. One that I think people have a right to jump into, but to also be educated about before they do.

Which is why I think opioids should be prescription only but addiction is a valid reason for a prescription. Try to keep people from junking down that hole but if they're down there don't be punitive about it.

- - - Updated - - -

Huh? Your claim was not that a lot of people die or have serious illness related to smoking. Your claim was that cigarettes were "exponentially" (whatever you mean by it, presumably "much") more dangerous than crack. And you have not even begun trying to justify that claim. Care to try again?
And let me illustrate something to you. A lot more people die slipping in the shower than die climbing Mt. Everest. But that does not mean taking a shower is more dangerous than climbing Mt. Everest.

You have no serious point.

Find one and I will respond.

Millions of people die every year from cigarette related deaths.

Thousands from cocaine.

Millions is thousands raised to an exponent.

You learned something.

And a lot more die from alcohol rather than cyanide. Should we have bars serve cyanide??

(You're mistaking overall deaths with deaths per user--and in this case there's no reason at all for that as tobacco is more deadly than cocaine on a per-user basis.)

 

[Loren Pechtel]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/a...-14-minutes-alcoholic-drink-cost-7-hours.html

The Daily Fail, crap as usual.

The problem here is that they are counting all the lifestyle dangers that go along with illegal drugs as part of the harm done by the drugs--but that harm wouldn't be done if the drugs were legal.

 

[Derec]

Once you remove the deaths due to impurity (which would not exist if drugs were legal and produced under proper conditions) tobacco is clearly the most dangerous drug out there, killing 1/3 of it's users in time. Next in line isn't so clear cut (trying to remove the crap from the data is hard) but it looks like alcohol is in the #2 spot.

But you should not remove impurities from consideration since crack people smoke is impure. Also, smoking crack is more damaging than snorting powder and unter's original assertion was about crack and not cocaine in general.

In any case, I did not actually say he was wrong, I just asked him to back up his claim, which he did not do. He merely pointed out how many people died from smoking which in no way establishes his claim.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/sep/04/chicago-gun-violence-unsolved-murders-deadly-year

With the continued righteous efforts of Black Lives Matter, we can get that 4% to 0%.

Two thoughts.

First would there be such violence if property in the area were in the hands of the residents rather than absentee land lords.

It wouldn't matter--the property soon would be in the hands of others anyway.

- - - Updated - - -

It is still wrong usage of the word exponentially. Just admit you were wrong and move on.

If something is exponentially greater than something else it means it is at least 10 times greater. Maybe 100 times greater. Maybe 1000 times, and so on.

It is something any third grader could comprehend.

You're thinking of an order of magnitude greater.

(Although that can be either 2x or 10x depending on whose talking.)

Exponential refers to the shape of a curve.

 

[Jarhyn]

It would help, especially with less dangerous drugs like Pot, etc. But my points remain for harder drugs. You would still suck up the medical resources (especially in a universal health care system, which I support), and even if the resources where there for people to educate themselves about the drugs they are taking (with doctors they pay for and are somehow not diverted from other patients that need them), how many people would do so? And do we truly KNOW all of the effects of these drugs? A lot of the newer ones are still a bit of a question mark.

China fought/lost two wars to stop the societal decay caused by hard drugs.

No. They fought two wars over OPIUM, largely because they lacked the technology necessary to prevent widespread addiction.

The nature of that technology that they lacked is educational infrastructure and the technology associated with a non-feudal lifestyle. In other words, life in China fucking sucked, and it's no wonder people there wanted to become numb to that hell. Heck, life in China STILL sucks for a significant number of people.

As to JP's arguments about 'hard drugs' please be *specific*. Which drugs are, for the point of your argument, hard?

Is Cocaine hard? Is LSD hard? Is Kratom hard?

I propose that drug education be a part of compulsory k-12 education, and even a compulsory segment of accredited degree programs.

As to effeccts, we have a pretty good handle on the long term effects of most drugs on the black market currently.

If you have questions about specifics, I could probably answer them for you.