To all the "Good Liberals": A Rant for our Times.

[Toni]

So forgive me if I don't feel obligated to make this woman and people like her feel all warm and fuzzy and oh so greatly appreciated.

And somehow we were supposed to know this from what you wrote....

You really expected us to guess the above rather than taking you at what you actually wrote?

I stand by my response to your OP as it was written. I'm glad you didn't mean it, if you didn't, but the points in response to it (if not you) stand.

How does the context that AA provided change the validity of her arguments?

Is it because you feel you can safely be assured she didn't mean you but rather some specific person in some specific context?

 

[laughing dog]

If anything, circumstances this dire would indicate that you could use all the help you can get by any means necessary!

"Any means necessary?" Really?

So she should be happy for anything that comes along, even if it's not actually at all helpful? Forget that! You want to be someone's friend, be their friend whether or not they "thank" you for it. No one owes you gratitude, especially if they didn't ask for the thing you think you're gifting them with. You want respect, give it. Don't try to take it.

Accusing a friend of having a "bruised ego" when they criticize your arguments/position is not a very friendly thing to do. It has nothing to do with owing anyone gratitude. It is just common decency.

I think your response is situation specific and not a general rule.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

How does the context that AA provided change the validity of her arguments?

It doesn't. It doesn't change what she wrote. It may change what she meant to write, and she may not actually hold the views as stated in the OP despite having written the OP. That's all in her mind so I can't know and I don't particularly care.

Is it because you feel you can safely be assured she didn't mean you but rather some specific person in some specific context?

Pardon? I never thought she meant me. Nor do I find her or what inspired her to write what she did to be relevant to what I wrote. I was writing in response to what she wrote on the face of it, not about her personal experiences. I remain only concerned about the points made and not the people making them.

 

[LordKiran]

I only just thought of this, Didn't we already have a "Wee Address" to libhruls?

 

[laughing dog]

. I remain only concerned about the points made and not the people making them.

From someone who has personally attacked two posters in this thread with accusations of trolling and prejudice that appears more than delusional.

 

[Toni]

How does the context that AA provided change the validity of her arguments?

It doesn't. It doesn't change what she wrote. It may change what she meant to write, and she may not actually hold the views as stated in the OP despite having written the OP. That's all in her mind so I can't know and I don't particularly care.

Is it because you feel you can safely be assured she didn't mean you but rather some specific person in some specific context?

Pardon? I never thought she meant me. Nor do I find her or what inspired her to write what she did to be relevant to what I wrote. I was writing in response to what she wrote on the face of it, not about her personal experiences. I remain only concerned about the points made and not the people making them.

Sure.

 

[LordKiran]

I interpreted AA's OP similarly to the way that JP did.

AA seemed to be saying that she doesn't want to take the time to recognize the emotions of others who claim to want to help her. But my question is,why the heck not?

"Please" and "Thank you" don't disappear or lose their power just because you are "fighting for your life." If anything, circumstances this dire would indicate that you could use all the help you can get by any means necessary! But AA thinks that taking her allies' feelings into consideration is just too high a price to pay. Give me a break. Woman up and take the time to treat your friends with respect or they won't be your friends for long. This isn't rocket science.

And no one has yet asked why I wrote the rant.

No where have I said anything about not saying please or thank you. No one has notice the scare quotes around "good liberals". I have not claimed these people are my allies. On specific legislation, that may be case, but my allies don't berate entire groups of people because they feel that group, en masse, stood up a candidate at his meet and greet. Yeah that is what this about.

A local candidate had a meet and greet. No African American supporters showed up. This upset not the candidate, but a woman who was there. She then got on social media and had a tirade about the Negro Community (yes she used the word negro because she thinks it's 1950) not wanting to meet the candidate halfway. It was explained to her that the previous week, a beloved young person had died suddenly and over 700 hundred people had gone to that funeral which was at the same time as the meet and greet and the many of the people who would have gone to that were at the funeral instead. This was a meeting of people who could deliver donations and votes. The black people who can do that were at the funeral. Instead of saying I didn't know and I'm sorry. this woman doubled down. and in the process attacked a member of the discussion who is an african american man running for sheriff in a neighboring county who had been putting out racial fires all week ranging from a group of white nationalists pulling up his lawn signs, to being called a nigger at a public gathering and having his life threatened for running for sheriff in the first place. And throughout all of this, the woman who started this felt she was the wronged party and black people were being ungrateful and unreasonable. and here's the kicker. The candidate she feels was slighted, did not ask her to do this, would not ask her to this, and has spent decades doing good work and building good will in the black community. I know this and that's why I'm working on his campaign. Good reputation which she is now in the process of erasing.

So forgive me if I don't feel obligated to make this woman and people like her feel all warm and fuzzy and oh so greatly appreciated.

Maybe you would have had a more welcome reception if your OP didn't have an accusatory tone but rather just spoke openly and honestly about your difficulties with this woman and extrapolate from there on what it might mean in a bigger sense?

 

[Toni]

You forgot to quote this part

People who will fight the fight until they feel a slight then watch out.

Incidents of hatred are on the rise and frankly, I don't have time to constantly make "good liberals" feel warm and safe and praised for their goodness.

You clearly want to attack X, but you realize that doing so causes a slight to some "good liberals". You don't want to say not all X and you don't want to have to go out of your way to make them feel warm and safe. Warm and safe from what? From your prejudice.

Where have I misread this?

These "good liberals" you speak of get so sensitive and fragile because they want to be on the side of right and good, on your side, but you evidently make them feel like they are lumped in with your targets. Why do you suppose that could be, and do you think it has nothing to do with how you are speaking about the group you identify them with?

For starters, you seem to read anyone who makes a point that you do not agree with as an attack.

Is that a 'good liberal' thing?

 

[Toni]

You forgot to quote this part

People who will fight the fight until they feel a slight then watch out.

Incidents of hatred are on the rise and frankly, I don't have time to constantly make "good liberals" feel warm and safe and praised for their goodness.

You clearly want to attack X, but you realize that doing so causes a slight to some "good liberals". You don't want to say not all X and you don't want to have to go out of your way to make them feel warm and safe. Warm and safe from what? From your prejudice.

Where have I misread this?

These "good liberals" you speak of get so sensitive and fragile because they want to be on the side of right and good, on your side, but you evidently make them feel like they are lumped in with your targets. Why do you suppose that could be, and do you think it has nothing to do with how you are speaking about the group you identify them with?

This is not an attack. Not wanting to be responsible of making privileged people feel warm and fuzzy is not an attack. And since you have no idea about the real life events that made me write the rant in the first place, you might want to back up instead of getting your back up every time I say something that pricks your oh so sensitive feelings.

The problem is that you're hitting too close to the bone for JP's comfort.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Maybe you would have had a more welcome reception if your OP didn't have an accusatory tone but rather just spoke openly and honestly about your difficulties with this woman and extrapolate from there on what it might mean in a bigger sense?

Indeed, I saw nothing to object to in her post about her actual experience. She's quite right in that post.

 

[Toni]

I interpreted AA's OP similarly to the way that JP did.

AA seemed to be saying that she doesn't want to take the time to recognize the emotions of others who claim to want to help her. But my question is,why the heck not?

"Please" and "Thank you" don't disappear or lose their power just because you are "fighting for your life." If anything, circumstances this dire would indicate that you could use all the help you can get by any means necessary! But AA thinks that taking her allies' feelings into consideration is just too high a price to pay. Give me a break. Woman up and take the time to treat your friends with respect or they won't be your friends for long. This isn't rocket science.

And no one has yet asked why I wrote the rant.

No where have I said anything about not saying please or thank you. No one has notice the scare quotes around "good liberals". I have not claimed these people are my allies. On specific legislation, that may be case, but my allies don't berate entire groups of people because they feel that group, en masse, stood up a candidate at his meet and greet. Yeah that is what this about.

A local candidate had a meet and greet. No African American supporters showed up. This upset not the candidate, but a woman who was there. She then got on social media and had a tirade about the Negro Community (yes she used the word negro because she thinks it's 1950) not wanting to meet the candidate halfway. It was explained to her that the previous week, a beloved young person had died suddenly and over 700 hundred people had gone to that funeral which was at the same time as the meet and greet and the many of the people who would have gone to that were at the funeral instead. This was a meeting of people who could deliver donations and votes. The black people who can do that were at the funeral. Instead of saying I didn't know and I'm sorry. this woman doubled down. and in the process attacked a member of the discussion who is an african american man running for sheriff in a neighboring county who had been putting out racial fires all week ranging from a group of white nationalists pulling up his lawn signs, to being called a nigger at a public gathering and having his life threatened for running for sheriff in the first place. And throughout all of this, the woman who started this felt she was the wronged party and black people were being ungrateful and unreasonable. and here's the kicker. The candidate she feels was slighted, did not ask her to do this, would not ask her to this, and has spent decades doing good work and building good will in the black community. I know this and that's why I'm working on his campaign. Good reputation which she is now in the process of erasing.

So forgive me if I don't feel obligated to make this woman and people like her feel all warm and fuzzy and oh so greatly appreciated.

Maybe you would have had a more welcome reception if your OP didn't have an accusatory tone but rather just spoke openly and honestly about your difficulties with this woman and extrapolate from there on what it might mean in a bigger sense?

Why is it Athena's responsibility to make anyone else more comfortable? Or to do their thinking for them?

I am far from the sharpest knife in the drawer, but even I realize the point that AA was making applies to more than one specific incident.

Case in point: this entire thread. You and JP got your widdle feelings all hurt and want to let AA know that she must make it clear that her post applies only to a specific incident and in no way applies to you or your feelings of being oh so superior and righteous.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

The problem is that you're hitting too close to the bone for JP's comfort.

Within the past couple of hours you have made numerous posts towards me not addressing any of my points, but declaring my character and claiming to read my mind. I am honoured by your sudden obsession with me. I'm curious if you will eventually say anything on point however.

Edit: Oh dear, now you are vilifying Lord Kiran too. I disagree with him often, but no, methinks he didn't have his widdle feelings all hurt.

 

[Toni]

I interpreted AA's OP similarly to the way that JP did.

AA seemed to be saying that she doesn't want to take the time to recognize the emotions of others who claim to want to help her. But my question is,why the heck not?

"Please" and "Thank you" don't disappear or lose their power just because you are "fighting for your life." If anything, circumstances this dire would indicate that you could use all the help you can get by any means necessary! But AA thinks that taking her allies' feelings into consideration is just too high a price to pay. Give me a break. Woman up and take the time to treat your friends with respect or they won't be your friends for long. This isn't rocket science.

It's not that surprising that you interpreted AA's OP similarly to JP's interpretation.

You think that when standing up for a cause that it is important that no one's feelings get hurt, that no one ever be asked to confront their own limitations or shortcomings, that thanking the privileged for nominally showing a tad of support means that protecting their oh so sensitive feelings takes precedence over the work of the cause. The purpose of a cause may not be to make people who are already pretty comfortable in their privilege and position to feel even more safe and comfortable.

Having to face one's shortcomings is hard and sometimes even a bit humiliating. Especially when you think you are doing someone else a favor. But it's also a good place from which to grow and learn: by recognizing that you have shortcomings and your views may be much more narrow than you think they are. Realizing you don't know everything is a much better place than being sure that you do.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Having to face one's shortcomings is hard and sometimes even a bit humiliating. Especially when you think you are doing someone else a favor. But it's also a good place from which to grow and learn: by recognizing that you have shortcomings and your views may be much more narrow than you think they are. Realizing you don't know everything is a much better place than being sure that you do.

Do you see your shortcoming in attacking zorq and telling him its not surprising he interpreted as he did because he thinks such and such? Do you realize that you don't know everything in his head despite telling him how he thinks? Do you think you are doing Athena a favour by standing up for her ill conceived OP?

 

[Toni]

Having to face one's shortcomings is hard and sometimes even a bit humiliating. Especially when you think you are doing someone else a favor. But it's also a good place from which to grow and learn: by recognizing that you have shortcomings and your views may be much more narrow than you think they are. Realizing you don't know everything is a much better place than being sure that you do.

Do you see your shortcoming in attacking zorq and telling him its not surprising he interpreted as he did because he thinks such and such? Do you realize that you don't know everything in his head despite telling him how he thinks? Do you think you are doing Athena a favour by standing up for her ill conceived OP?

How is AA's OP 'ill conceived?'

Like I've said, I'm far from the sharpest knife in the drawer, but I understood exactly what she was getting at.

Some people have an outsized need to be thanked, to be recognized for their 'sacrifice' in doing the right thing. These are the same people who have a pretty outsized need to be thought to be good or intellectual or 'liberal' or whatever they think is the most high status term within whatever group from whom they are seeking affirmation.

 

[LordKiran]

Why is it Athena's responsibility to make anyone else more comfortable?

Because if you want people to actually listen to and consider deeply what you have to say, then the onus is on you to put it in a way that doesn't immediately put people on the defensive and lessen whatever sympathy they might have had for your position.

AA has the privilege to say whatever she wants here but that doesn't mean she's entitled to an amicable audience.

 

[Toni]

Why is it Athena's responsibility to make anyone else more comfortable?

Because if you want people to actually listen to and consider deeply what you have to say, then the onus is on you to put it in a way that doesn't immediately put people on the defensive and lessen whatever sympathy they might have had for your position.

AA has the privilege to say whatever she wants here but that doesn't mean she's entitled to an amicable audience.

How do you see AA's OP as putting anyone on the defensive?

 

[Toni]

The problem is that you're hitting too close to the bone for JP's comfort.

Within the past couple of hours you have made numerous posts towards me not addressing any of my points, but declaring my character and claiming to read my mind. I am honoured by your sudden obsession with me. I'm curious if you will eventually say anything on point however.

Edit: Oh dear, now you are vilifying Lord Kiran too. I disagree with him often, but no, methinks he didn't have his widdle feelings all hurt.

Wow.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Having to face one's shortcomings is hard and sometimes even a bit humiliating. Especially when you think you are doing someone else a favor. But it's also a good place from which to grow and learn: by recognizing that you have shortcomings and your views may be much more narrow than you think they are. Realizing you don't know everything is a much better place than being sure that you do.

Do you see your shortcoming in attacking zorq and telling him its not surprising he interpreted as he did because he thinks such and such? Do you realize that you don't know everything in his head despite telling him how he thinks?

That's exactly what you did to the OP.

 

[laughing dog]

So forgive me if I don't feel obligated to make this woman and people like her feel all warm and fuzzy and oh so greatly appreciated.

And somehow we were supposed to know this from what you wrote....

You really expected us to guess the above rather than taking you at what you actually wrote?

You aren't. But that does not excuse jumping to conclusions and engaging in a personal attack based on your biases.

I stand by my response to your OP as it was written. I'm glad you didn't mean it, if you didn't, but the points in response to it (if not you) stand.

Wow.