"throw capitalism at it" ad absurdum

[Harry Bosch]

I volunteered to be a wage slave! Far less stress than being an owner. I value my weekends!

What experience do you have with employee group ownership and control in a democratic manner?

Both companies that I started were "group ownership". I started them with two other partners. We each contributed 1/3 of the capital to the company. We each shared 1/3 of the profits. We each had 1/3 vote. Actually, this ownership structure went pretty well in the beginning. The three of us were each about equally motivated. Each was willing to work 80 hours a week or however much it took to make it work. The difficulty comes when a company grows. And people bring to the company different amounts of work ethic, less equity, and etc. But that's probably for a different thread....

 

[Harry Bosch]

You fail to understand that the person who uses their capital to make more capital likely works very hard at doing so.

Just because it's almost all thinking rather than manual labor doesn't make it not work.

Since college I have never been more than two hops from the owners/C-level employees and until my current job I have had routine interaction with them.

They work hard, the company does well. They don't work hard, the company goes downhill.

It is not work to use capital to make capital.

It is making money without doing work. If you invest in a company that is not work. If you invest but in reality have no control over what you invest in you are not a capitalist. You are a gambler.

If they are doing work they are not capitalists.

They are merely workers who control other workers in a top down dictatorial scheme.

Well, there are passive owners and there are active owners. I'm strictly a passive owner today. I have a long term (20 years plus) average rate of return of around 9% (2008 and 09 was not good to me!). That's a much better rate of return than the average gambler. It is work actively deploying capital into the right company, pulling it at the correct time, and etc.

Active owners also bring their expertise to the company. They invest money into riskier ventures. But they want a say in the operations of the company.

 

[DrZoidberg]

You fail to understand that the person who uses their capital to make more capital likely works very hard at doing so.

Just because it's almost all thinking rather than manual labor doesn't make it not work.

Since college I have never been more than two hops from the owners/C-level employees and until my current job I have had routine interaction with them.

They work hard, the company does well. They don't work hard, the company goes downhill.

The only "capitalists" that do not work hard at it are those who simply buy stock--and the vast majority of those are the average people (although the purchases are often through pensions or 401ks rather than direct.)

Capitalists are people who live entirely by exploiting others, even that work being done by some of them. The sort of businessmen being discussed are engaged in primary accumulation, forcing particular people to make profits for them, but, like burglars or confidence men, prepared to put a bit of effort into picking pockets and conning the mugs.

I think you need to investigate what capital is. Capital is the stuff you need to do stuff. Stuff you couldn't do without it. The origin of capital is the Dutch stock exchange. Which took place on the Amsterdam docks. just on the street basically. Each individual person couldn't afford to buy a ship. But if they went together they could pool their money and buy a ship. That ship is capital. Acquiring that ship is expensive. As is the upkeep. Capitalists are basically that guy. The guy making sure the ship is generating a return on investment to the people who took the initial risk. But nobody takes risks if there's not a promise of a large reward. The invention BTW allowed the Dutch to create a huge empire in just a hundred years, from nothing. The fact that they created that empire is why the rest of the world adopted the same economical system. It's not just the stock exchange. It's also laws which nobody is exempt from. Even the king.

Doing away with capitalists means doing away with that ship. Good luck moving your bananas to anywhere without that ship. USSR proved that the government doing that job is a bad method. Greed is a better motivator than Gulags. Lesson learned.

Capitalists aren't evil. But they are part of a system. And all systems needs constant re-balancing to adjusting to work smoothly. Just like capital does.

I'm no libertarian. But I do believe in capitalism. I think it's a good system. But I do believe it requires regulating to keep it from becoming lopsided and corrupt

 

[dismal]

Capitalism only works if bad ideas are allowed to die.

Yeah, the problem is some bad ideas seem stubbornly persistent. Like you can't even destroy them with 150 years of totalitarian butchery, material privation, death and hunger. Let alone a century of advances in economics thinking.

People still believe the shit and walk among us like dinosaurs from a past era.

 

[barbos]

You seem to be disusing old school capitalism which resembles the most today's small business. People who put money in these usually know what they are doing and there are usually no clear show stoppers.
But today we have "startup" type of businesses, and a lot of them are clear 100% scams from the get-go, and yet they often persist for decades defrauding different people over and over using nicely packaged bullshit.

 

[coloradoatheist]

You seem to be disusing old school capitalism which resembles the most today's small business. People who put money in these usually know what they are doing and there are usually no clear show stoppers.
But today we have "startup" type of businesses, and a lot of them are clear 100% scams from the get-go, and yet they often persist for decades defrauding different people over and over using nicely packaged bullshit.

What's your best example of that and why are people buying the product?

 

[coloradoatheist]

You seem to be disusing old school capitalism which resembles the most today's small business. People who put money in these usually know what they are doing and there are usually no clear show stoppers.
But today we have "startup" type of businesses, and a lot of them are clear 100% scams from the get-go, and yet they often persist for decades defrauding different people over and over using nicely packaged bullshit.

The government runs one of the biggest ones with Social Security.

 

[barbos]

You seem to be disusing old school capitalism which resembles the most today's small business. People who put money in these usually know what they are doing and there are usually no clear show stoppers.
But today we have "startup" type of businesses, and a lot of them are clear 100% scams from the get-go, and yet they often persist for decades defrauding different people over and over using nicely packaged bullshit.

What's your best example of that and why are people buying the product?

I don't want to give you my best example of long running low profile scam which I have been semi-famously following for 10 years. But I can give you more high profile case of cold-fusion scam run by Andrea Rossi, also other energy related scams - BlackLight.

 

[DrZoidberg]

You seem to be disusing old school capitalism which resembles the most today's small business. People who put money in these usually know what they are doing and there are usually no clear show stoppers.
But today we have "startup" type of businesses, and a lot of them are clear 100% scams from the get-go, and yet they often persist for decades defrauding different people over and over using nicely packaged bullshit.

Nope. I have several friends who are venture capitalists. Most of them are solid. The scams are all pretty obvious and rare. Yes, they exist. Like this:

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/waterseer-water-women#/

But do you need more than a glance to tell that it's bullshit? The scams pray on retards. Actual retards. I heard a NPR show about it and everybody they interviewed for it who had been scammed had one type of brain damage or another.

The good one's persist. The bad one's die. Which is how capitalism should work.

Stockholm is heaven for start-ups. Copenhagen to. Can't open a wardrobe without finding a team of coders soon to make it big. But it actually works. The IT industry is mature now. Gold diggers need not bother applying. You need to have a plan and know what you're doing. Capitalism actually working. Same goes for the hipster businesses, taco trucks and such. It often works great.

Where capitalism isn't working so well is in banking. Or insurance. The old money. If you start rich you'll end rich, regardless of track record. Something worth analysing. I think it's inbuilt in the system. The elites in power are the same people as those with shares in the old money companies. Hard to fix then

 

[untermensche]

It is not work to use capital to make capital.

It is making money without doing work. If you invest in a company that is not work. If you invest but in reality have no control over what you invest in you are not a capitalist. You are a gambler.

If they are doing work they are not capitalists.

They are merely workers who control other workers in a top down dictatorial scheme.

Well, there are passive owners and there are active owners. I'm strictly a passive owner today. I have a long term (20 years plus) average rate of return of around 9% (2008 and 09 was not good to me!). That's a much better rate of return than the average gambler. It is work actively deploying capital into the right company, pulling it at the correct time, and etc.

Active owners also bring their expertise to the company. They invest money into riskier ventures. But they want a say in the operations of the company.

If you have control over what you invest in you are more than a gambler.

But having a 401K doesn't make one a capitalist. It makes one a passive gambler and many times a victim of capitalists.

Capitalism is as much about the planned destruction of enterprises as the construction of them. Destruction of lives for no more reason than so a few can prosper while many suffer.

 

[barbos]

You seem to be disusing old school capitalism which resembles the most today's small business. People who put money in these usually know what they are doing and there are usually no clear show stoppers.
But today we have "startup" type of businesses, and a lot of them are clear 100% scams from the get-go, and yet they often persist for decades defrauding different people over and over using nicely packaged bullshit.

The government runs one of the biggest ones with Social Security.

I heard people say that and disagree.

 

[coloradoatheist]

What's your best example of that and why are people buying the product?

I don't want to give you my best example of long running low profile scam which I have been semi-famously following for 10 years. But I can give you more high profile case of cold-fusion scam run by Andrea Rossi, also other energy related scams - BlackLight.

It's interesting. What is it selling and who is actually buying it?

- - - Updated - - -

The government runs one of the biggest ones with Social Security.

I heard people say that and disagree.

Not to get sidetracked, but the program is stealing from one group of people to give money to another group of people in return that a later date some other group will be stolen from.

 

[barbos]

You seem to be disusing old school capitalism which resembles the most today's small business. People who put money in these usually know what they are doing and there are usually no clear show stoppers.
But today we have "startup" type of businesses, and a lot of them are clear 100% scams from the get-go, and yet they often persist for decades defrauding different people over and over using nicely packaged bullshit.

Nope. I have several friends who are venture capitalists. Most of them are solid. The scams are all pretty obvious and rare. Yes, they exist. Like this:

Maybe Sweden is different, I am only following US and in US in tech sector there are a lot of them. And yes most famous US VC firm was involved, I even sent email to one of their dumbass billionaires explaining how stupid they are I got no response but I suspect they were getting out already at the time.

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/waterseer-water-women#/

But do you need more than a glance to tell that it's bullshit?

The scams pray on retards.

Some of these retards have billions of dollars and some are actually not dumb and have actually started highly profitable companies themselves.

Actual retards. I heard a NPR show about it and everybody they interviewed for it who had been scammed had one type of brain damage or another.

The good one's persist. The bad one's die. Which is how capitalism should work.

If we are speaking about VCs they persist having 90% of their startups fail.

Stockholm is heaven for start-ups. Copenhagen to. Can't open a wardrobe without finding a team of coders soon to make it big. But it actually works. The IT industry is mature now. Gold diggers need not bother applying. You need to have a plan and know what you're doing. Capitalism actually working. Same goes for the hipster businesses, taco trucks and such. It often works great.

I think we are talking about different things. I am following green energy tech. Scam rate there is pretty insane.

 

[barbos]

I don't want to give you my best example of long running low profile scam which I have been semi-famously following for 10 years. But I can give you more high profile case of cold-fusion scam run by Andrea Rossi, also other energy related scams - BlackLight.

It's interesting. What is it selling and who is actually buying it?

They are selling promises and some people keep buying it.

- - - Updated - - -

The government runs one of the biggest ones with Social Security.

I heard people say that and disagree.

Not to get sidetracked, but the program is stealing from one group of people to give money to another group of people in return that a later date some other group will be stolen from.

Yes, that's how social security works, sounds unfair, but what is an alternative? Shoot unemployed and old people in the head? Albert fucking Einstein had been unemployed for 2 years before he got his patent office job, I am not sure there was social security thing back then but it happened.

 

[coloradoatheist]

How long will green energy labs stay around that don't produce anything?

 

[DrZoidberg]

Some of these retards have billions of dollars and some are actually not dumb and have actually started highly profitable companies themselves.

Now we're talking about diffrent things. Now we're talking about highly advanced scams. like Bernie Madoff. We actually have pretty good tools for getting at them. It's worse with the scams that are legal. There's a lot in banking regulation that seems dodgy to me.

If we are speaking about VCs they persist having 90% of their startups fail.

It's more like 75% But if they had higher success rates they wouldn't need venture capitalists. Launching a company is always high risk. If it wasn't high risk somebody else would already have done it. That's why the rewards need to be high. If it isn't nobody would bother.

Stockholm is heaven for start-ups. Copenhagen to. Can't open a wardrobe without finding a team of coders soon to make it big. But it actually works. The IT industry is mature now. Gold diggers need not bother applying. You need to have a plan and know what you're doing. Capitalism actually working. Same goes for the hipster businesses, taco trucks and such. It often works great.

I think we are talking about different things. I am following green energy tech. Scam rate there is pretty insane.

ha ha. Yeah. Point taken. Aren't those pretty much 100% all scams? Even the one's that are legit have loads of pretty scammy aspects.

But are they really defined as start ups? Start ups are small and scrappy.

Read a funny detail about oil. The oil itself isn't traceable. Only the paperwork. The world's biggest oil market is off the coast of Nigeria in international waters. All illegally aqcuired oil. ISIS oil and robber baron oil and all matter of nonsense. Somebody is buying it. Lots and lots of people are buying it. You are buying it. I am buying it. But all the oil companies are all looking the other way. It's cheap oil, so everybody looks away. Everybody.

 

[untermensche]

How long will green energy labs stay around that don't produce anything?

Instead of propping up the oil industry the government should be propping up these companies.

The government should be investing massively in methods to transition from the use of oil for energy.

But all nations need to devote a percentage of their land to dense plant life free from human development as well.

 

[coloradoatheist]

How long will green energy labs stay around that don't produce anything?

Instead of propping up the oil industry the government should be propping up these companies.

The government should be investing massively in methods to transition from the use of oil for energy.

But all nations need to devote a percentage of their land to dense plant life free from human development as well.

It should be propping up any of them. It made a mistake supporting the oil revolution and believing cars were the right but you think they will be able to make the right decision this time around. It's been government planning that has made it so we don't really pay for the choices that we've made.

 

[untermensche]

Not to get sidetracked, but the program is stealing from one group of people to give money to another group of people in return that a later date some other group will be stolen from.

Paying required taxes can never be called stealing.

Doing so is rhetorical whining on a massive scale.

Social Security is an inter-generational insurance policy.

And since Reagan began a tax on Social Security, even those getting it are paying out for others.

It is a societal expression that we are all in this together.

One nation under god and all that crap.

 

[untermensche]

Instead of propping up the oil industry the government should be propping up these companies.

The government should be investing massively in methods to transition from the use of oil for energy.

But all nations need to devote a percentage of their land to dense plant life free from human development as well.

It should be propping up any of them. It made a mistake supporting the oil revolution and believing cars were the right but you think they will be able to make the right decision this time around. It's been government planning that has made it so we don't really pay for the choices that we've made.

It should be massively propping up industries that could possibly help lesson what is now inevitable environmental catastrophes.

To just let these catastrophes happen and not try to do something about them is insanity.