The Privatization of Justice: It's Not Just Prisons Anymore

[Trausti]

I posted videos earlier in the thread showing how people treat criminals where there is weak law and order. How would Norway's system deter people from doing that?

It obviously works, as you yourself have noted that there is less crime there.

Different demographics.

 

[Jarhyn]

I posted videos earlier in the thread showing how people treat criminals where there is weak law and order. How would Norway's system deter people from doing that?

By curing those with criminal ideation or segregating them from the population until it is cured, or indefinitely. As you yourself admitted, it works there.

 

[Jarhyn]

Of course the demographics are different. Because they have moved their culture away from having a porno show of torturing people. They have gone through the detox and are living clean, and that kind of world is one we could have if we too kicked the habit.

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I posted videos earlier in the thread showing how people treat criminals where there is weak law and order. How would Norway's system deter people from doing that?

It obviously works, as you yourself have noted that there is less crime there.

Ah, so your vision requires Utopia.

No, just a change in how we deal with prisoners. It has worked in the real world. We just need to do it here. Your implication is that it can't work because 'utipia' can't exist. Except that this particular case does exist enduringly in the real world

 

[coloradoatheist]

I did look it up. Prison time in Norway for rape is up to 10 years.

 

[Jarhyn]

I did look it up. Prison time in Norway for rape is up to 10 years.

Have you looked at why that is, and what happens in their prisons? Hint: it isn't punishment.

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It obviously works, as you yourself have noted that there is less crime there.

Different demographics.

So, what, they aren't human in Norway? Or are you saying Norwegians are the real master race, and the rest of us should just kill ourselves so they can cover the earth with strull and humane prisons?

 

[Trausti]

I posted videos earlier in the thread showing how people treat criminals where there is weak law and order. How would Norway's system deter people from doing that?

By curing those with criminal ideation or segregating them from the population until it is cured, or indefinitely. As you yourself admitted, it works there.

 

[Jarhyn]

By curing those with criminal ideation or segregating them from the population until it is cured, or indefinitely. As you yourself admitted, it works there.

So, now you've gone from special pleading to straw-man. Bravo.

Maybe, just maybe, it would serve you for once to admit you have a chemical addiction to violence, that you seek out those least able to combat it, and that you and your society would be better served by fighting a perverse anti-utilitarian addiction.

 

[Trausti]

So, now you've gone from special pleading to straw-man. Bravo.

How do you "cure" someone? You're the one who proposed that, not me. Support it or drop it.

 

[Trausti]

So, what, they aren't human in Norway? Or are you saying Norwegians are the real master race, and the rest of us should just kill ourselves so they can cover the earth with strull and humane prisons?

Police think that the increase in criminal acts is due to the high number of foreigners that come to visit Norway for short periods of time. "It's hard for police to investigate these cases because we don't know their identities, and they can quickly leave the country again," Sjøvold tells NRK.

Sjøvold emphasizes that sentences currently given to those who commit these crimes do not pose a great enough risk. "The Oslo Police Presinct has suggested stricter sentences for certain criminal acts," the Police Chief says.

Wut?

http://www.norwaypost.no/news-politics/28235-foreigners-increase-norways-crime-statistics

 

[dismal]

I did look it up. Prison time in Norway for rape is up to 10 years.

Yes, but it's OK to lock someone up for 10 years if you don't call it punishment.

 

[Juma]

The most important thing is not to destroy the bad parts of the machine that is the human society, but to mend.

 

[Jarhyn]

So, now you've gone from special pleading to straw-man. Bravo.

How do "cure" someone? You're the one proposed that, not me. Support it or drop it.

Various ways. Foremost, giving someone the means and opportunities to have a good life without the drugs they crave, and the understanding that it is nothing but a drug addiction that makes them do those things. Sometimes this means giving them access to better drugs whose administration does not require violence or theft, or better routes of administration for the drugs that violence or theft are otherwise responsible for.

It doesn't take Skinnerian conditioning or such vile forms of 'reprogramming' though that may be a voluntary suggestion by sufferers of particularly bad behavioural disorders. At any rate, the sorts of criminals who are evident in A Clockwork Orange are atypical of those who end up in American prisons.

Give them a reason and means to live good lives without resorting to violent crime and you will see far less violent crime.

 

[Jarhyn]

Police think that the increase in criminal acts is due to the high number of foreigners that come to visit Norway for short periods of time. "It's hard for police to investigate these cases because we don't know their identities, and they can quickly leave the country again," Sjøvold tells NRK.

Sjøvold emphasizes that sentences currently given to those who commit these crimes do not pose a great enough risk. "The Oslo Police Presinct has suggested stricter sentences for certain criminal acts," the Police Chief says.

Wut?

http://www.norwaypost.no/news-politics/28235-foreigners-increase-norways-crime-statistics

And I don't doubt that Sjøvold is as perverse and disgusting as you have admitted to being. Police are not experts in corrections, They are experts in investigation. You have moved from straw man to argument from authority.

 

[Trausti]

How do "cure" someone? You're the one proposed that, not me. Support it or drop it.

Various ways. Foremost, giving someone the means and opportunities to have a good life without the drugs they crave, and the understanding that it is nothing but a drug addiction that makes them do those things. Sometimes this means giving them access to better drugs whose administration does not require violence or theft, or better routes of administration for the drugs that violence or theft are otherwise responsible for.

It doesn't take Skinnerian conditioning or such vile forms of 'reprogramming' though that may be a voluntary suggestion by sufferers of particularly bad behavioural disorders. At any rate, the sorts of criminals who are evident in A Clockwork Orange are atypical of those who end up in American prisons.

Give them a reason and means to live good lives without resorting to violent crime and you will see far less violent crime.

Well, I'm not against decriminalizing minor drug possession or use. In some US states we have drug courts to try to steer the offender to a better life. But when it comes to violent crime, neither I nor most of society is sympathetic to the feelings of a murderer or rapist.

 

[Trausti]

Wut?

http://www.norwaypost.no/news-politics/28235-foreigners-increase-norways-crime-statistics

And I don't doubt that Sjøvold is as perverse and disgusting as you have admitted to being. Police are not experts in corrections, They are experts in investigation. You have moved from straw man to argument from authority.

Was simply showing the relative low crime rates of native Norwegians compared to foreigners in Norway.

 

[Jarhyn]

I did look it up. Prison time in Norway for rape is up to 10 years.

Yes, but it's OK to lock someone up for 10 years if you don't call it punishment.

Except as has been demonstrated by the activities of their criminal corrections system it isnt punishment. It doesn't matter what it is called, it isn't done to hurt the person or instill fear. It is done so that the system has time to ensure that the criminal isn't going to go out and do it again. Rape is a serious issue, and it is necessary to be particularly careful and sure before letting a person who has shown a propensity to do it into the general population again. As it is, most sentencing in Norway is really open-ended. If they aren't reasonably sure you won't do it again, it doesn't matter that you have 'done your time', you get put back in again until they are reasonably sure you won't do it again.

 

[Jarhyn]

And I don't doubt that Sjøvold is as perverse and disgusting as you have admitted to being. Police are not experts in corrections, They are experts in investigation. You have moved from straw man to argument from authority.

Was simply showing the relative low crime rates of native Norwegians compared to foreigners in Norway.

As caused by a social emphasis on education and humane corrections. Low crime rates don't just happen. They are the result of some element of context. You are admitting in this that American culture is necessarily wrong about many things with respect to crime, punishment, and education. So why not work on fixing it here rather than doubling down on things that clearly don't work?

 

[Trausti]

Was simply showing the relative low crime rates of native Norwegians compared to foreigners in Norway.

As caused by a social emphasis on education and humane corrections. Low crime rates don't just happen. They are the result of some element of context. You are admitting in this that American culture is necessarily wrong about many things with respect to crime, punishment, and education. So why not work on fixing it here rather than doubling down on things that clearly don't work?

Demographics matter.

Through its monopoly on violence, the State tends to pacify social relations. Such pacification proceeded slowly in Western Europe between the 5th and 11th centuries, being hindered by the rudimentary nature of law enforcement, the belief in a man's right to settle personal disputes as he saw fit, and the Church's opposition to the death penalty. These hindrances began to dissolve in the 11th century with a consensus by Church and State that the wicked should be punished so that the good may live in peace. Courts imposed the death penalty more and more often and, by the late Middle Ages, were condemning to death between 0.5 and 1.0% of all men of each generation, with perhaps just as many offenders dying at the scene of the crime or in prison while awaiting trial. Meanwhile, the homicide rate plummeted from the 14th century to the 20th. The pool of violent men dried up until most murders occurred under conditions of jealousy, intoxication, or extreme stress. The decline in personal violence is usually attributed to harsher punishment and the longer-term effects of cultural conditioning. It may also be, however, that this new cultural environment selected against propensities for violence.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25748943

If Norway begins to experience US levels of violence, expect its criminal punishment regimen to change.

 

[Jarhyn]

Various ways. Foremost, giving someone the means and opportunities to have a good life without the drugs they crave, and the understanding that it is nothing but a drug addiction that makes them do those things. Sometimes this means giving them access to better drugs whose administration does not require violence or theft, or better routes of administration for the drugs that violence or theft are otherwise responsible for.

It doesn't take Skinnerian conditioning or such vile forms of 'reprogramming' though that may be a voluntary suggestion by sufferers of particularly bad behavioural disorders. At any rate, the sorts of criminals who are evident in A Clockwork Orange are atypical of those who end up in American prisons.

Give them a reason and means to live good lives without resorting to violent crime and you will see far less violent crime.

Well, I'm not against decriminalizing minor drug possession or use. In some US states we have drug courts to try to steer the offender to a better life. But when it comes to violent crime, neither I nor most of society is sympathetic to the feelings of a murderer or rapist.

Which is one of the reasons that violent offenders are recidivist: nobody cares enough about them to fix them. They just want to use them as a source of people they themselves can violate and murder.

Again, let me point out how SICK that is.

- - - Updated - - -

As caused by a social emphasis on education and humane corrections. Low crime rates don't just happen. They are the result of some element of context. You are admitting in this that American culture is necessarily wrong about many things with respect to crime, punishment, and education. So why not work on fixing it here rather than doubling down on things that clearly don't work?

Demographics matter.

Through its monopoly on violence, the State tends to pacify social relations. Such pacification proceeded slowly in Western Europe between the 5th and 11th centuries, being hindered by the rudimentary nature of law enforcement, the belief in a man's right to settle personal disputes as he saw fit, and the Church's opposition to the death penalty. These hindrances began to dissolve in the 11th century with a consensus by Church and State that the wicked should be punished so that the good may live in peace. Courts imposed the death penalty more and more often and, by the late Middle Ages, were condemning to death between 0.5 and 1.0% of all men of each generation, with perhaps just as many offenders dying at the scene of the crime or in prison while awaiting trial. Meanwhile, the homicide rate plummeted from the 14th century to the 20th. The pool of violent men dried up until most murders occurred under conditions of jealousy, intoxication, or extreme stress. The decline in personal violence is usually attributed to harsher punishment and the longer-term effects of cultural conditioning. It may also be, however, that this new cultural environment selected against propensities for violence.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25748943

If Norway begins to experience US levels of violence, expect its criminal punishment regimen to change.

Gorpeschlorp matters. Plechtenect matters. Bleep bloop bleep matters. Special pleading. They are as human as we are. We can do the same things as their modern society and get the same results.

Unless you are arguing that it is genetic, that they are not the same humans that we are. That you are. Or that there is some element such as our plethora of lead. In which case the solution is to fix the lead problem.

 

[Trausti]

Gorpeschlorp matters. Plechtenect matters. Bleep bloop bleep matters. Special pleading. They are as human as we are. We can do the same things and get the same results.

Jarhyn - what was the Norwegian crime rate before implementation of its current criminal justice system? You're putting the cart before the horse.