• Welcome to the Internet Infidels Discussion Board.

The future of the North American economy

The problem that we have is that we decided that all of the rewards of the productivity gains should go to profits and none to wages. Before we divided the productivity gains equally between profits and wages.

No. We have not "decided" this, it's a simple reaction to the market forces--the productivity gains are going to those who enabled the productivity gains: the companies that invested in the automation.

We have been through this so many times before, you and I.

Allow me to jump ahead based on our previous discussions.

Let's investigate your reasoning, as I remember it.

  • Fact: We split the gains from productivity 50-50, increased wages-profits, before 1980.
  • Loren: Presumably because of market forces at the time, correct?
  • Loren: Not because of the economic policies of the time, correct?
  • Fact: Starting in 1980 we slowly, intentionally changed our economic policies to supress wages to increase the amount of money available to invest.
  • Fact: This is known as supply side economics.
  • Loren: But changing these policies didn't impact the income distribution which in your world is determined by market forces, correct?
  • Fact: Since 1980 the split between wages and profits of the productivity gains has slowly turned to 100% profits, 0% to wages.
  • Loren: This is solely due to market forces and not to the economic policy changes known collectively as supply side economics, correct?
  • Loren: So what you are saying is that the supply side economic policies were failures, correct?
If the supply side economic policies weren't the cause of the change in the split between rewarding wages or profits, then there are only two questions left.

Why do you complain so bitterly when someone proposes to change the supply side economic policies?

Minimum wage? Encouraging unions again? Trade protectionism? You claim that none of these impact the economy.

And what changed the market forces?

Sun spots?

Money paid as wages does circulate in the economy and does boost it. It boosts demand and provides the incentives needed to invest.

Fixed.

You are saying that the money paid as wages doesn't circulate through the economy? In Loren economics.

What I am saying is simple, The rich save most of their income and the non-rich spend most of their incomes.

Do you agree with this?

If you don't I don't know what to think. This proposition is accepted by every school of economics that I am aware of.

And it is this proposition that makes the income distribution so important to the economy. Because savings don't circulate in the economy. They sit in bank accounts, in Treasury Bills, in the stock market and in certain bonds.

It is the next phase of automation that will test our current policy of throwing away the workers displaced by greater productivity and using its rewards to only increase profits. That is, the automation that will replace management and professionals. Today automation is deciding who is worthy to be given a loan, negotiating car prices, selling us consumer goods, setting insurance premiums, trading stocks, helping to make medical diagnoses, handling customers' questions and complaints, forming sales strategies, and a multitude of other tasks.

In the future automation will replace more and more professionals and management types. These jobs will disappear like the manufacturing jobs did for us. Income share of the economy will drop and the capital share, profit, will increase. Income inequality will get worse and demand will fall reducing or eliminating the growth in the economy making matters even worse.

In time this will become a serious issue. We haven't reached that point yet.

Of course, it will come.

My question for you is what is your solution for the workers who are displaced by automation?

Poverty?
 
Fixed for you. That's not to say that automation is not going to be a bigger problem. It's just most of the current super-profits are linked to outsourcing.

No, you don't understand the reality. Far more jobs have been lost to automation than to outsourcing.
Reality called and said you confuse super-profits and job loss.
 
If your profit is somebody's loss then it's not a profit. I don't dispute that that these jobs exist for a reason, but that reason is crappy system where people are forced to work meaningless jobs in order to support themselves.
Maybe that's an emergent property of a system that resists some unrealistic perception of 'perfect'.

How do we create business without exploitation? How do we even begin to define what type of business is exploitative or not?
I am not talking about exploitation, I am talking about meaningless exploitation.
 
No. We have not "decided" this, it's a simple reaction to the market forces--the productivity gains are going to those who enabled the productivity gains: the companies that invested in the automation.

We have been through this so many times before, you and I.

Yup.

  • Fact: We split the gains from productivity 50-50, increased wages-profits, before 1980.
  • Loren: Presumably because of market forces at the time, correct?
  • Loren: Not because of the economic policies of the time, correct?
  • Fact: Starting in 1980 we slowly, intentionally changed our economic policies to supress wages to increase the amount of money available to invest.
  • Fact: This is known as supply side economics.
  • Loren: But changing these policies didn't impact the income distribution which in your world is determined by market forces, correct?
  • Fact: Since 1980 the split between wages and profits of the productivity gains has slowly turned to 100% profits, 0% to wages.
  • Loren: This is solely due to market forces and not to the economic policy changes known collectively as supply side economics, correct?
  • Loren: So what you are saying is that the supply side economic policies were failures, correct?
If the supply side economic policies weren't the cause of the change in the split between rewarding wages or profits, then there are only two questions left.

You are taking your position as fact, you aren't proving anything.

Why do you complain so bitterly when someone proposes to change the supply side economic policies?

I favor the minimum intervention in the economy.

Minimum wage? Encouraging unions again? Trade protectionism? You claim that none of these impact the economy.

Huh? All of these things impact the economy--in a negative way.

And what changed the market forces?

What changed the market forces is that the automation costs money--a lot of money.

Lets look at my former employer. When I started there there was no real automation. Some machines did their job with a minimum of human intervention but they applied no intelligence to the process. (Example: A big belt sander. The clearance was preset, anything that went through it would have it's top sanded until it was of the set thickness. Purely mechanical, just a set of belts of different grits.) I do not know the price tags of such equipment, I would be surprised at numbers over $10k.

We got into automation in a heavy way. Off the top of my head (almost certainly a low estimate as I only paid attention to pieces of equipment I had to talk to) I'm aware of ~10 machines we bought well up there in the 5 figures, two that we built basically from scratch that I'm sure cost us at least that much, two more in the low 6 figures, one at $500k and one upwards of a million dollars. In addition there was a few hundred $k in computers/networking and three of us who did nothing but computers. There were also two guys who did nothing built build/maintain the automation and one who was a mix of the two.

That's several million dollars the company spent on automation instead of several hundred jobs. Why in the world should the profit from that automation go to the workers that weren't working any harder? It went to those of us employed with the automation and to the companies we bought that automation from.

The factory workers were making more than they were before (inflation) and most of them had an easier job. They lost nothing to the automation, it's just we didn't hire as many as we would have had we not automated. The half dozen of us who dealt with it got paid well above what the factory workers did and the owners profited. Since I can't see a victim I can't see how you are arguing that this is unfair.

Money paid as wages does circulate in the economy and does boost it. It boosts demand and provides the incentives needed to invest.

Fixed.

You are saying that the money paid as wages doesn't circulate through the economy? In Loren economics.

Read! I'm not saying that money paid as wages doesn't circulate. I'm saying that you shouldn't have put the qualifier--money circulates, whether it's wages or profit.

What I am saying is simple, The rich save most of their income and the non-rich spend most of their incomes.

Really, now? The rich have big compartments under their mattresses??

No, the reality is they spend it. Often with many layers in between, but it gets spent on things which will improve productivity. Fundamentally, all interest is because someone puts money to productive use and is willing to pay

Do you agree with this?

If you don't I don't know what to think. This proposition is accepted by every school of economics that I am aware of.

And it is this proposition that makes the income distribution so important to the economy. Because savings don't circulate in the economy. They sit in bank accounts, in Treasury Bills, in the stock market and in certain bonds.

Just because the analysis gets more complex is no reason to stop it and declare it doesn't happen. That money in the bank account? You think the bank is simply storing it out of the goodness of their hearts? No--they're loaning most of it out, putting it to productive use. T-Bills are the government putting it to use. Bonds are companies putting it to use.

The only one you can make an argument for not being used is stock--and even that argument is flawed. The secondary market in stock provides liquidity that drives the primary market in stock and thus drives the creation of new businesses.

My question for you is what is your solution for the workers who are displaced by automation?

Poverty?

Once there cease to be enough jobs in the economy we will have to implement something akin to a UBI. We aren't there yet, though.
 
No. We have not "decided" this, it's a simple reaction to the market forces--the productivity gains are going to those who enabled the productivity gains: the companies that invested in the automation.

We have been through this so many times before, you and I.

Allow me to jump ahead based on our previous discussions.

Let's investigate your reasoning, as I remember it.

  • Fact: We split the gains from productivity 50-50, increased wages-profits, before 1980.
  • Loren: Presumably because of market forces at the time, correct?
  • Loren: Not because of the economic policies of the time, correct?
  • Fact: Starting in 1980 we slowly, intentionally changed our economic policies to supress wages to increase the amount of money available to invest.
  • Fact: This is known as supply side economics.
  • Loren: But changing these policies didn't impact the income distribution which in your world is determined by market forces, correct?
  • Fact: Since 1980 the split between wages and profits of the productivity gains has slowly turned to 100% profits, 0% to wages.
  • Loren: This is solely due to market forces and not to the economic policy changes known collectively as supply side economics, correct?
  • Loren: So what you are saying is that the supply side economic policies were failures, correct?
If the supply side economic policies weren't the cause of the change in the split between rewarding wages or profits, then there are only two questions left.
I think your wages versus profits approach is deeply flawed.
Ordinary folk take advantage of productivity gains even without wage increase. After all, all these products are consumed by ordinary people for for the most part.
Wages are not useful metric especially when comparing very different eras and 70-80s was a very different era. As for profits then it all depends how do you define them. Modern manufacturing and even business in general has very different cost structure from the older days, capital requirements per worker are much higher, thanks to the damn automation аnd division of labor. So the fact that a lot of money are stuck in the form of capital should not indicate something bad.
 
something of an aside:

the whole concept of an 'information economy' is a pipe dream. i can't even vaguely see the third world trading its labor for our ideas - when, in fact, paying for said ideas is entirely optional. in 2010, 20% of PC software was pirated in the usa, 78% in the prc. copyrights are doomed.
 
something of an aside:

the whole concept of an 'information economy' is a pipe dream. i can't even vaguely see the third world trading its labor for our ideas - when, in fact, paying for said ideas is entirely optional. in 2010, 20% of PC software was pirated in the usa, 78% in the prc. copyrights are doomed.

"Information economy" doesn't mean the trading of intellectual property, ie "ideas". What it means is that the most valuable commodity in the market is information (about that market). This is now true for the entire world. Computers have penetrated into every country and almost every community. Information is used to help poor third world farmers maximize yields for instance. They use databases for seed that is optimized for their situation. It helps make every aspect of life more efficient. The most valuable information for these poor farmers is typically given to them for free by universities. But even if free, it's still extremely valuable and part of that economy.

You've just misunderstood what the word means. Intellectual property is only a tiny tiny part of the overall information economy and trade.

Also copyrights are not doomed. But they are sorely in a need of reform. Copyrights need to be international. The system we have now is unwieldy. But it is being reformed. The music industry is paving the way. They're making money again, and making buckets of cash again. They've just changed their revenue models. Things are good again.
 
something of an aside:

the whole concept of an 'information economy' is a pipe dream. i can't even vaguely see the third world trading its labor for our ideas - when, in fact, paying for said ideas is entirely optional. in 2010, 20% of PC software was pirated in the usa, 78% in the prc. copyrights are doomed.

Ideas are not the same thing as information.

Information is stuff that people use to make decisions. And it's valuable, so it's worth collecting and selling.

For example, if you own a shipping company, you can save a fortune if you have an accurate weather forecast for all the possible routes your ships traverse. So meteorologists can make a living from nothing other than producing weather forecasts, which are pure information. They have no tangible existence.

Information is valuable, and it needs to be collected, refined and stored. Just like other commodities.

In the Stone Age, they had a stone based economy. In the Bronze Age, they kept on using stone tools for certain tasks - but bronze became the most important commodity.

An economy where information becomes more important than manufacturing goes from being a manufacturing economy to being an information economy. That doesn't mean manufacturing stops. It's just not as big a part of the economy as information has become.
 
In the Stone Age, they had a stone based economy. In the Bronze Age, they kept on using stone tools for certain tasks - but bronze became the most important commodity.

This is a bit of a tangent. But dividing up the various ages after which material was the main one, comes from the fact that this system was invented around the time when Europe had figured out how to produce steel. So the modern age became the "steel age". But it's not a particularly good division, since the main commodity in any age has always been information. There's been attempts to create new divisions of the ages based on what information technology they had available. Which would be more informative. But these new systems haven't caught on.

We've never had a "stone based economy". In the bronze age, bronze certainly wasn't the main driver of the economy. It just showed up a lot in burial sites. It wasn't even the most important thing militarily then. That was the chariot. So it's a misleading terminology.
 
I read one idea recently that made sense and I'd never heard before: the unemployed are in the public sector.
 
In the Stone Age, they had a stone based economy. In the Bronze Age, they kept on using stone tools for certain tasks - but bronze became the most important commodity.

This is a bit of a tangent. But dividing up the various ages after which material was the main one, comes from the fact that this system was invented around the time when Europe had figured out how to produce steel. So the modern age became the "steel age". But it's not a particularly good division, since the main commodity in any age has always been information. There's been attempts to create new divisions of the ages based on what information technology they had available. Which would be more informative. But these new systems haven't caught on.

We've never had a "stone based economy". In the bronze age, bronze certainly wasn't the main driver of the economy. It just showed up a lot in burial sites. It wasn't even the most important thing militarily then. That was the chariot. So it's a misleading terminology.

The chariot age is actually pretty apt given that wheel-and-animal drawn carriages were the epitome of overland travel at the time.
 
As to labor unions, they can be good for their members' standards of living. In the US at least, blue-collar workers were best off in the 1950's and 1960's when they were heavily unionized. Unions and the Middle Class - The Atlantic describes the devastating effect of the persecution of teachers' unions in Wisconsin. Teachers' standards of living have gone down dramatically, especially those of experienced teachers, and the state now has lots of teacher shortages. The month that killed the middle class: How October 1973 slammed America - Salon.com pointed to the beginning of the end: the month of the Yom Kippur War, when the Arab countries imposed an oil embargo on nations too friendly to Israel. That made US car buyers want to buy smaller cars, cars that would not earn enough to support a high standard of living for the workers who built them.
 
As to labor unions, they can be good for their members' standards of living. In the US at least, blue-collar workers were best off in the 1950's and 1960's when they were heavily unionized. Unions and the Middle Class - The Atlantic describes the devastating effect of the persecution of teachers' unions in Wisconsin. Teachers' standards of living have gone down dramatically, especially those of experienced teachers, and the state now has lots of teacher shortages. The month that killed the middle class: How October 1973 slammed America - Salon.com pointed to the beginning of the end: the month of the Yom Kippur War, when the Arab countries imposed an oil embargo on nations too friendly to Israel. That made US car buyers want to buy smaller cars, cars that would not earn enough to support a high standard of living for the workers who built them.

I didn't read the articles, I will, but that sounds like a bunch of bullshit to me.

There was and is a set of people who want to roll back the New Deal. The oil price shocks of the 70's presented the opportunity to end the New Deal legacy policy of full employment. Price stability replaced full employment, and came with a "natural" rate of employment, due to the belief that full employment was inflationary.

That is far more important than the consumption habits of auto workers.
 
We have been through this so many times before, you and I.

Yup.

And we never reach any resolution. I think because you are never willing to defend your statements. (I do concede that I maybe a little too willing to defend mine, in depth.)

  • Fact: We split the gains from productivity 50-50, increased wages-profits, before 1980.
  • Loren: Presumably because of market forces at the time, correct?
  • Loren: Not because of the economic policies of the time, correct?
  • Fact: Starting in 1980 we slowly, intentionally changed our economic policies to suppress wages to increase the amount of money available to invest.
  • Fact: This is known as supply side economics.
  • Loren: But changing these policies didn't impact the income distribution which in your world is determined by market forces, correct?
  • Fact: Since 1980 the split between wages and profits of the productivity gains has slowly turned to 100% profits, 0% to wages.
  • Loren: This is solely due to market forces and not to the economic policy changes known collectively as supply side economics, correct?
  • Loren: So what you are saying is that the supply side economic policies were failures, correct?
If the supply side economic policies weren't the cause of the change in the split between rewarding wages or profits, then there are only two questions left.

You are taking your position as fact, you aren't proving anything.

I am trying to understand what your position is and what, if any, logic is behind it. You constantly refuse to support your statements. I am forced to try to guess if you have any reason for these statements that you make or if you are only parroting some line that supports your beliefs and biases and you don't understand the economics behind it.

You said that the change in who gains from productivity shifted because of market forces due to the high cost of automation equipment (which makes little sense as I explain later.) I say that they shifted because of changes in policy.

The policies did change to ones that intentionally created income inequality according to the proponents of the so-called supply side economics. Thus if you are correct that market forces created the inequality you must believe that the supply side economics policies were largely ineffective.

I asked questions about your position. You deflected saying that I established my position in the facts that I supplied. But you didn't say which of the facts you disagreed with.

I wasn't trying to poison the well, but we do have to start somewhere. That is unless your position isn't based on fact at all.

This is the way that people arrive at logical conclusions. They establish a base of facts that they can agree on and they draw their arguments and conclusions from there. If you dispute my facts present your objections to them.

For example, if you don't believe that the gains from productivity were split 50/50 in before 1980, tell me how you believe that they were split.

I can dig through the BLS data and prove that they were. You can provide whatever proof that your position is correct.

For example, I can repost this graph showing the increase in productivity and the real hourly wage of production workers from 1948 to 2014, based on BLS data.


And this graph of productivity and both the real mean wage and the real average wage for all workers in the US, including salaried employees, CEOs and billion dollar a year hedge fund managers.


The mean wage is the wage that 50% of the workers earn less than and 50% of the workers earn more than. This mean wage line follows the same path of little to no growth from 1980 on. The divergence of the average wage and the mean wage shows the growing income inequality over the period. I can provide references to the methodology used in the two graphs if you need to question it.

If you do accept that it is a fact that before 1980 the proceeds from productivity gains were split between wages and profits. Then we can move on.

If you don't believe that there is such a thing as supply side economics, challenge it. I have many sources that I can provide establishing the existence of supply side economics, the particulars of it, and how it was implemented through the 1980's on, from Wikipedia to academic papers.

I don't just say random things that support my feelings of the moment. We are trying to establish if that is what you do.

Why do you complain so bitterly when someone proposes to change the supply side economic policies?

I favor the minimum intervention in the economy.

Which intervention do you consider to be more than minimum, when the supply siders intervened in the economy to boost the incomes of the already rich in the 1980's or what I am proposing now to start intentionally boosting the wages of the lower 90%?

If what you mean by the minimum amount of intervention is the Chicago school's non-intervention in the economy except for the central bank's monetary policies and support to maintain the exchange rate of the dollar, then I don't see how you could support either. Then yours is a classical conservative response and an example of why this type of response is always wrong when we are confronting problems with the status quo.

The supply side economists economists claimed that we had to intervene in the economy to correct problems in it. They were demonstrably wrong in what they thought was the problem and they were demonstrably wrong in the solution that they provided, but they didn't argue for the minimum intervention in the economy of the time. In fact, they changed it considerably.

We are not interested in what you or I favor. We should be interested only in what can be shown theoretically and empirically to be viable. Non-intervention in the economy has no support in either.

The only theoretical support for non-intervention in the economy, is the neoclassical economics' marginal productivity theory. That supply and demand will drive prices down to equal the cost to produce the marginal product, the last product produced. The theory that is the sole support that the self-regulating, self-organizing free market can exist and can deliver the greatest degree of social justice possible If this is what you rely on for your minimum intervention in the economy we can discuss it. But it is a thoroughly discredited theory.

The empirical evidence against non-intervention is huge starting with the entire history of collective man and his economy, starting with tribal man to today. There was never a time when the economy was successfully running autonomously and beyond the oversight of a third party in a position of authority. Even when we make a small step out of what history tells us is the minimum amount of intervention in the economy that we need it has resulted in disasters like Reagan's savings and loan fiasco or the Great Depression and Recession. Or the current threat, the large and growing income inequality.

If by minimum intervention in the economy you mean not intervening just for the sake of intervening, then I agree with you. We should only intervene in the economy when the economy is threatened or when it is providing us with results which we agree through our brand of democracy aren't in the best interests of the society as a whole. For example, when the interventions are taken to boost the incomes of one small group over the interests of the others. Which is of course what the supply siders did.

I strongly believe that when you say that you believe in the minimum intervention that you are more of a non-interventionist, self-regulating free marketer than my kind of not intervening just for the sake of it interventionist.

So relieve me of trying to guess what you mean when you say "you support the minimum intervention in the economy." Explain what you mean and why you believe it.

==== end of my Part 1, Part 2 continues below ====
 
As to labor unions, they can be good for their members' standards of living. In the US at least, blue-collar workers were best off in the 1950's and 1960's when they were heavily unionized. Unions and the Middle Class - The Atlantic describes the devastating effect of the persecution of teachers' unions in Wisconsin. Teachers' standards of living have gone down dramatically, especially those of experienced teachers, and the state now has lots of teacher shortages. The month that killed the middle class: How October 1973 slammed America - Salon.com pointed to the beginning of the end: the month of the Yom Kippur War, when the Arab countries imposed an oil embargo on nations too friendly to Israel. That made US car buyers want to buy smaller cars, cars that would not earn enough to support a high standard of living for the workers who built them.

Or, what happens to workers salaries are dependent on a hell of a lot more than policy, or politics. A lot of these gains are also technological advances.
 
As to the minimum wage, I will estimate what would be a good upper limit for it: the gross domestic product per worker.

GDP (current US$) | Data
Population Clock
United States Labor Force Statistics - Seasonally Adjusted
Compensation of Employees: Wages and Salary Accruals/Gross Domestic Product - FRED - St. Louis Fed (not sure whether this is wages proper or wages + benefits)
Minimum Wage - U.S. Department of Labor - Chart1 | United States Department of Labor

2015:
US GDP = $17.947 trillion
US Population = 321,411,608 (June 30, used as an average)
US Workforce = 157,126,000 (average of monthly figures)
US Active Workers = 148,839,000 (average of monthly figures)

US GDP per capita (population, workforce, active workers):
$55,838, $114,220, $120,580

At 52 weeks/year, 5 days/week, 8 hours/day,
$26.85, $54.91, $57.97

A minimum wage of $60 would force all of the GDP to be paid as wages, and force everybody to be paid equally. This would include not only wages proper, but also benefits.

But what is a reasonable fraction of GDP that would go to wages? Let's check some history again. Between 1947 and 1973, it varied between 49% and 51%, and after 1973, it declined to a rough average of 43% at the present day. Putting both numbers in gives us

50%:
$27,919, $57,110, $60,290
$13.42, $27.46, $28.99

43%
$24,010, $49,114, $51,849
$11.54, $23.61, $24.93

Thus giving an upper limit of $25/hr. So $15/hr may be a bit much. $10/hr would be a more reasonable target. It would get the minimum wage to its Federal-value peak of about $10/hr in inflation-adjusted money.
 
You said that the change in who gains from productivity shifted because of market forces due to the high cost of automation equipment (which makes little sense as I explain later.) I say that they shifted because of changes in policy.

The policies did change to ones that intentionally created income inequality according to the proponents of the so-called supply side economics. Thus if you are correct that market forces created the inequality you must believe that the supply side economics policies were largely ineffective.

I'm objecting to the word "intentionally".

What we are seeing is that after WWII we were the only nation on the planet with an intact industrial plant. This let us dictate prices and it let unions control entire industries. They could dictate high wages, the companies could pass it on to their customers.

However, as other countries rebuilt this "golden" era (more like an era of exploitation) inevitably came to an end. Unionized enterprises were destroyed by non-union enterprises in almost every case where they weren't basically immune to competition.

That's the shift you are calling an intentional shift towards the companies rather than the workers.

For example, if you don't believe that the gains from productivity were split 50/50 in before 1980, tell me how you believe that they were split.

The problem here is that you are acting as if there is an intelligent actor controlling this, rather than it simply being a result.

I can dig through the BLS data and prove that they were. You can provide whatever proof that your position is correct.

I'm not trying to rebut your numbers. I'm saying they are red herrings.

The mean wage is the wage that 50% of the workers earn less than and 50% of the workers earn more than. This mean wage line follows the same path of little to no growth from 1980 on. The divergence of the average wage and the mean wage shows the growing income inequality over the period. I can provide references to the methodology used in the two graphs if you need to question it.

But here you are actually posting bad data. The problem is that you are looking at hourly wages. These days most good jobs are salaried, not hourly. And most good jobs aren't in manufacturing. Your chart didn't come through but if it's what I think it is it's looking at manufacturing, not the whole economy.

Which intervention do you consider to be more than minimum, when the supply siders intervened in the economy to boost the incomes of the already rich in the 1980's or what I am proposing now to start intentionally boosting the wages of the lower 90%?

The problem is the "intervention" you are talking about is taking their thumb off the scale.

The only theoretical support for non-intervention in the economy, is the neoclassical economics' marginal productivity theory. That supply and demand will drive prices down to equal the cost to produce the marginal product, the last product produced. The theory that is the sole support that the self-regulating, self-organizing free market can exist and can deliver the greatest degree of social justice possible If this is what you rely on for your minimum intervention in the economy we can discuss it. But it is a thoroughly discredited theory.

No. It delivers the most productivity, not the most social justice. As such, it is imperfect. However, we should recognize that all interventions come at a cost of lowering the average standard of living. Intervene only when it's truly needed, and then in a minimally disruptive way. (Thus, for example, I favor approaches like the EITC over approaches like minimum wage. I believe the former costs the economy less than the latter, it's just the EITC is on the government's books, the cost of the minimum wage is hidden.)
 
As to the minimum wage, I will estimate what would be a good upper limit for it: the gross domestic product per worker.

GDP (current US$) | Data
Population Clock
United States Labor Force Statistics - Seasonally Adjusted
Compensation of Employees: Wages and Salary Accruals/Gross Domestic Product - FRED - St. Louis Fed (not sure whether this is wages proper or wages + benefits)
Minimum Wage - U.S. Department of Labor - Chart1 | United States Department of Labor

2015:
US GDP = $17.947 trillion
US Population = 321,411,608 (June 30, used as an average)
US Workforce = 157,126,000 (average of monthly figures)
US Active Workers = 148,839,000 (average of monthly figures)

US GDP per capita (population, workforce, active workers):
$55,838, $114,220, $120,580

At 52 weeks/year, 5 days/week, 8 hours/day,
$26.85, $54.91, $57.97

A minimum wage of $60 would force all of the GDP to be paid as wages, and force everybody to be paid equally. This would include not only wages proper, but also benefits.

But what is a reasonable fraction of GDP that would go to wages? Let's check some history again. Between 1947 and 1973, it varied between 49% and 51%, and after 1973, it declined to a rough average of 43% at the present day. Putting both numbers in gives us

50%:
$27,919, $57,110, $60,290
$13.42, $27.46, $28.99

43%
$24,010, $49,114, $51,849
$11.54, $23.61, $24.93

Thus giving an upper limit of $25/hr. So $15/hr may be a bit much. $10/hr would be a more reasonable target. It would get the minimum wage to its Federal-value peak of about $10/hr in inflation-adjusted money.
If I am reading this correctly, this sounds like you are not talking about a minimum wage but a set wage for everyone with no variance for skill, training, experience, or value to society of their contribution.

But then many people are not wage slaves but do contribute to the GDP. Much of my earnings for what I do is based on how many people want what I produce enough to pay me for it.
 
==== beginning of my Part 2, continued from Part 1 above ====

Minimum wage? Encouraging unions again? Trade protectionism? You claim that none of these impact the economy.

Huh? All of these things impact the economy--in a negative way.

The policies themselves are neutral. The impact of changing them depends on the conditions in the economy when the changes are made.

Once again, these are policies that the supply siders changed to intentionally suppress wages. They effectively lowered the minimum wage by not keeping it up with inflation, they intentionally suppressed the unions to under cut the workers' negotiating power and they passed trade treaties that fully exposed the wages in this country to competition from low wage countries.

It is definite that these changes did damage the economy, they increased income inequality. This is what we are discussing. You can have too little income inequality, you You said that the income inequality came from the market forces, not the intention on their part to increase the income inequality in the country, to increase the funds available for investment and thereby increase the amount of business investment and economic growth.

There is no doubt that they failed to increase investment and growth, both declined. But the policies that they changed supported wages in the economy, changing them would lower wages and increase profits. as they knew that they would. Increasing the income inequality wasn't a goal of the program, it wasn't an unintended consequence of the program, it was the only way that the program could work.

Or didn't these things actually happen? Perhaps you slept through the 1980's or you hadn't been born yet and this is all news to you?

And what changed the market forces?

What changed the market forces is that the automation costs money--a lot of money.

Lets look at my former employer. When I started there there was no real automation. Some machines did their job with a minimum of human intervention but they applied no intelligence to the process. (Example: A big belt sander. The clearance was preset, anything that went through it would have it's top sanded until it was of the set thickness. Purely mechanical, just a set of belts of different grits.) I do not know the price tags of such equipment, I would be surprised at numbers over $10k.

We got into automation in a heavy way. Off the top of my head (almost certainly a low estimate as I only paid attention to pieces of equipment I had to talk to) I'm aware of ~10 machines we bought well up there in the 5 figures, two that we built basically from scratch that I'm sure cost us at least that much, two more in the low 6 figures, one at $500k and one upwards of a million dollars. In addition there was a few hundred $k in computers/networking and three of us who did nothing but computers. There were also two guys who did nothing built build/maintain the automation and one who was a mix of the two.

That's several million dollars the company spent on automation instead of several hundred jobs. Why in the world should the profit from that automation go to the workers that weren't working any harder? It went to those of us employed with the automation and to the companies we bought that automation from.

The factory workers were making more than they were before (inflation) and most of them had an easier job. They lost nothing to the automation, it's just we didn't hire as many as we would have had we not automated. The half dozen of us who dealt with it got paid well above what the factory workers did and the owners profited. Since I can't see a victim I can't see how you are arguing that this is unfair.

Wouldn't the high costs of automation discourage the application of it?

If you are going to discuss these matters you have to understand that you are talking about the whole economy and how it operates and how it reacts. It is different than an individual operates and reacts in the economy. That we are talking about not just you. Or me. Or just your company.

There are I believe nine paradoxes of the macroeconomy. Things where the reactions of the macroeconomy are completely different, polar opposites, to the reactions of individual economic actors. The most famous of these is the paradox of thrift, that saving is good for the individual but bad for the economy as a whole because savings reduces spending. Another is the paradox of (the national) debt, that it is also the national private savings and can never be reduced except by reducing private savings, which means that it can never be reduced because it would cause a massive depression that would increase the debt. Another is the paradox of stability that the financial markets are inherently unstable and the more money in the market the more unstable it is. Of course, the opposite is true of individuals.

These are counterintuitive for someone like you who has to consider and talk about the economy as it affects you.

The answer to your question is that the whole economy is the victim. I am the victim. You are the victim. Your company is the victim. Even the rich are victims. The income inequality robs the economy of its main driver of aggregate demand by lowering aggregate wages, the labor share of the GDP, to increase the returns to capital, i.e. profits.

This reduces employment, growth, investment and economic activity. It increases unemployment, private debt, poverty, crime, drug use, financial market instability and the frequency and intensity of recessions caused by financial crises. These things are always bad for the economy and society. The only good that it produces is lower inflation, because the excessive profits from wages don't have any measurable impact on the economy.

It does increase the value of the stock market. The Dow Jones stock index has increased an astonishing 2300% nominal since 1980 compared to 290% for the cost of living and 300% for the median personal wage. This inflation in the prices of stocks we have defined as a good, by casting it as "capital gains." The same is true of home prices, inflation in the housing market is called "capital gains" too and a good too.

It isn't about what is fair or who earned what. These are not absolutes, they vary based on the different viewpoints. Beyond this consideration, they are irrelevant.

We all need an economy that is sustainable. That is stable and not marching in lockstep toward economic and social disaster all of the time.

A capitalistic economy in which there isn't intentional redistribution of income from the highest earners to the rest of the people is one in which the income and the wealth is going to be concentrated in progressively fewer hands all of the time. This not sustainable in the long term. We have had to learn this repeatedly over the last two hundred years.

The most recent and current destabilizing elements are the supply side economic policies that tilt the playing field toward the wealthy. I would be complaining equally as strongly if we were threatening the stability of the economy by adopting policies to tilt the field too far the other way.

We need profits to keep the capitalistic mechanism running. They power the machine. But they are part of the costs of capitalism, part of the overhead of capitalism.

But they aren't the reason that the machine is running.

We threaten the machine either when everyone receives the same or when the when a few receive all of the surplus. That there is a middle point where the machine runs the best between these two extremes. It isn't based on what is fair, it is based on stability of the economy itself and in turn, society itself.

There can be no better proof that we are too far toward over-rewarding capital than the recent election of our proto-fascist president. The workers are restless, they know that they are being screwed. They don't know how or by whom. They made the wrong choice, but honestly neither one would be the savior of the working class. It is just that Trump has promised to continue to screw them more than Clinton did.

The current economy is not stable, the financial sector is once again setting off to try to find some way to get their hands on the almost unbelievable amount of idle cash that the rich have accumulated over the last thirty five years. The last time that they came up with an innovation to claim part of this cash for themselves it was sub-prime mortgage backed securities, and aided by idiots who believed that Wall Street would self-regulate, they came really close to destroying the entire world's economy.

==== end of my Part 2, Part 3 continues below ====
 
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