Table of empires

[no-one-particular]

from Gen 10

http://biblehub.com/interlinear/genesis/10.htm Noah
Japhet
Ham
Shem

Germania
Tubal-Ionia
Basques
Etruscans

Scandinavia
Sarmatians (red)
Turks
India
Media (Persia)

Elishah
Tauris (Crimea)
Kittim
Dardanelles

Ethiopia
Egypt

Casluhim
Philistines
Caphtorim
Phut-Tyre

Ludim
Anamim
Carthage
Naphtuhim
Spain

Elam
Assyria
Arphaxad
Lydia
Aram

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10 Now these are the generations of the sons of Noah, Shem, Ham, and Japheth: and unto them were sons born after the flood.


2 The sons of Japheth; Gomer, and Magog, and Madai, and Javan, and Tubal, and Meshech, and Tiras.

3 And the sons of Gomer; Ashkenaz, and Riphath, and Togarmah.

4 And the sons of Javan; Elishah, and Tarshish, Kittim, and Dodanim.

5 By these were the isles of the Gentiles divided in their lands; every one after his tongue, after their families, in their nations.


6 And the sons of Ham; Cush, and Mizraim, and Phut, and Canaan.

13 And Mizraim begat Ludim, and Anamim, and Lehabim, and Naphtuhim,

14 And Pathrusim, and Casluhim, (out of whom came Philistim,) and Caphtorim.

20 These are the sons of Ham, after their families, after their tongues, in their countries, and in their nations.


21 Unto Shem also, the father of all the children of Eber, the brother of Japheth the elder, even to him were children born.

22 The children of Shem; Elam, and Asshur, and Arphaxad, and Lud, and Aram.

 

[funinspace]

non-sense calling

Instead, only try to realize the truth...there was no Noachian Flood. Ergo, who was Noah?

 

[no-one-particular]

Instead, only try to realize the truth...there was no Noachian Flood. Ergo, who was Noah?

Noah is a form of the name Khan-ach (Cain-brother). It may have been a title like Caesar.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Instead, only try to realize the truth...there was no Noachian Flood. Ergo, who was Noah?

Noah is a form of the name Khan-ach (Cain-brother). It may have been a title like Caesar.

Or it could have been a name like Clark Kent, in that it was the name of a fictional character from a storybook.

Also, where are the Chinese in your table? Given their historical record and the Biblical timelines, they seemed to have been very ambivalent about the fact that they all died in a worldwide flood and didn't ever consider that to be worth mentioning. I know that they were a fairly stoic society, but you'd figure there'd have been at least one guy bitching about it.

 

[no-one-particular]

Instead, only try to realize the truth...there was no Noachian Flood. Ergo, who was Noah?

Noah is a form of the name Khan-ach (Cain-brother). It may have been a title like Caesar.

Or it could have been a name like Clark Kent.

Yes it might be or it might not be. It's worth at least looking into it don't you think?

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Or it could have been a name like Clark Kent.

Yes it might be or it might not be. It's worth at least looking into it don't you think?

Yes, I do think. You know ... if that wasn't something which had already been done. There's no historical evidence for the Flood and there's mountains of evidence directly contradicting it. It's been looked into.

"Looking into it" makes about as much sense as "looking into" that whole Flat Earth thing by suggesting that maybe somebody should get around to trying to circumnavigate it or send a rocket up into space and have the astronauts look down to see what the shape is and thinking it's really weird that nobody's done that yet.

 

[funinspace]

We should ask Yoda

Or it could have been a name like Clark Kent.

Yes it might be or it might not be. It's worth at least looking into it don't you think?

Maybe or maybe not. Is it worth looking into the Alien sources for the Sumerian mysteries? Why not?

 

[no-one-particular]

Or it could have been a name like Clark Kent.

Yes it might be or it might not be. It's worth at least looking into it don't you think?

Yes, I do think. You know ... if that wasn't something which had already been done.

Well that's true but now we have the benefit of modern technology and modern archaeology (not to mention the new ideas that yours truly presented above).

And why do you want to make this about the flood? It seems like you're trying to change the subject. The subject of this thread is Empires.

 

[funinspace]

Yes, I do think. You know ... if that wasn't something which had already been done.

Well that's true but now we have the benefit of modern technology and modern archaeology (not to mention the new ideas that yours truly presented above).

And why do you want to make this about the flood? It seems like you're trying to change the subject. The subject of this thread is Empires.

Bullshit! This is a thread peddling drivel from the Torah as if it was historical. If this was about empires, the thread wouldn't even be in General Religion, and it would have words like Sumer, Indus, Egypt, and China as starters...

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Yes, I do think. You know ... if that wasn't something which had already been done.

Well that's true but now we have the benefit of modern technology and modern archaeology (not to mention the new ideas that yours truly presented above).

And why do you want to make this about the flood? It seems like you're trying to change the subject. The subject of this thread is Empires.

Then I must have misunderstood you. You seem to be saying that all these empires are founded by the descendants of this guy Noah. The only reason that would be the case would be because they have a common origin point shortly before they all started as opposed to many different origin points separated by millennia and unrelated to each other (as referenced by the links you gave in the OP) and the only thing which could cause this type of common origin would be some type of event which gave prominence to the group present at this common origin point. Given that you then referenced passages and characters from the Flood story while talking about this common origin point, it was reasonable to assume that the Flood was the event in question as opposed to it not having anything to do with what you were talking about.

If that was a misunderstanding of what it is that you were getting at, can you explain what it is about these various empires that you're wanting to discuss in this thread?

 

[no-one-particular]

I am trying to analyze the structure of the table of nations in Genesis 10. I am trying to understand why the nations were listed in the order they were. I am also trying to understand which nations correspond to which names

 

[Tom Sawyer]

I am trying to analyze the structure of the table of nations in Genesis 10. I am trying to understand why the nations were listed in the order they were. I am also trying to understand which nations correspond to which names

Oh.

 

[no-one-particular]

Yes, I do think. You know ... if that wasn't something which had already been done.

Well that's true but now we have the benefit of modern technology and modern archaeology (not to mention the new ideas that yours truly presented above).

And why do you want to make this about the flood? It seems like you're trying to change the subject. The subject of this thread is Empires.

Bullshit! This is a thread peddling drivel from the Torah as if it was historical. If this was about empires, the thread wouldn't even be in General Religion, and it would have words like Sumer, Indus, Egypt, and China as starters...

Or maybe words like ionia (greek empire) etruscans (roman empire) medes (persian empire) carthage.

And egypt is listed too

- - - Updated - - -

And it looks to me like the lists correspond to mass human migrations in ancient times.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

And it looks to me like the lists correspond to mass human migrations in ancient times.

How do the migrations to Scandinavia and India correspond to each other?

 

[no-one-particular]

And it looks to me like the lists correspond to mass human migrations in ancient times.

How do the migrations to Scandinavia and India correspond to each other?

From Scandanavia to India

 

[funinspace]

Bullshit! This is a thread peddling drivel from the Torah as if it was historical. If this was about empires, the thread wouldn't even be in General Religion, and it would have words like Sumer, Indus, Egypt, and China as starters...

Or maybe words like ionia (greek empire) etruscans (roman empire) medes (persian empire) carthage.

And egypt is listed too

- - - Updated - - -

And it looks to me like the lists correspond to mass human migrations in ancient times.

Sure, Egypt is listed, as it was one of the most ancient of empire and existed thru out the growth of the Jewish culture. Greece is an upstart. The Torah's empire...cough...history doesn't 'correspond' to jack.

I am trying to analyze the structure of the table of nations in Genesis 10. I am trying to understand why the nations were listed in the order they were. I am also trying to understand which nations correspond to which names

There is nothing wrong with trying to understand how the Jewish writings were formed, but it is a fools errand to pretend that they provide a historical framework to understand the most ancient empires. One can find hints of Sumerian literature within Genesis, but that doesn't make Genesis historical. It tells one where some of the sources for the development of Genesis, which came a millennia after the Sumerian document copies we physically have. For example the godess Ninti, is both the Lady of the rib, and the Lady of life and may be the world's oldest surviving literary puns. Linky provides the details:

http://www.gatewaystobabylon.com/myths/texts/retellings/enkininhur.htm

Enki’s greed to eat the eight sacred plants which gave birth to the Vegetal World resonates the eating of the Forbidden Fruit by Adam and Eve, and 6) most remarkably, this myth provides na explanation for one of the most puzzling motifs in the Biblical paradise story - the famous passage describing the fashioning of Eve, the mother of all living, from the rib of Adam. Why a rib instead of another organ to fashion the woman whose name Eve means according to the Bible, ‘she who makes live’? If we look at the Sumerian myth, we see that when Enki gets ill, cursed by Ninhursag, one of his body parts that start dying is the rib. The Sumerian word for rib is ‘ti’ . To heal each o Enki’s dying body parts, Ninhursag gives birth to eight goddesses. The goddess created for the healing of Enki’s rib is called ‘Nin-ti’, ‘the lady of the rib’. But the Sumerian word ‘ti’ also means ‘to make live’. The name ‘Nin-ti’ may therefore mean ‘the lady who makes live’ as well as ‘the lady of the rib’. Thus, a very ancient literary pun was carried over and perpetuated in the Bible, but without its original meaning, because the Hebrew word for ‘rib’ and that for ‘who makes live’ have nothing in common. Moreover, it is Ninhursag who gives her life essence to heal Enki, who is then reborn from her (Kramer, 1981:143-144).

Isaac Asimov did a decent write up discussing the Jewish world view and how they developed some of their holy texts and is available digitally if you want a general readers description for each of those names you listed. Keep in mind that these Jewish story tellers were making their stuff up about 'the origins' roughly 2000 plus years after the early empires (Sumer & Egypt specifically) were already writing. For example:
https://www.holybooks.com/wp-conten...e-to-the-Bible-The-Old-and-New-Testaments.pdf

Japheth

The Greeks, it seems, must be considered—in Biblical terms—to be among the descendants of Japheth. The writers of Genesis may even in
this respect have been influenced by Greek traditions, reaching them dimly from the west.

For instance, Japheth himself has been identified by some with the Titan Iapetus in the Greek myths. (Since the initial "J" in Hebrew names is pronounced like a "Y" in Hebrew, as is the initial "I" in Greek names, the similarity between Japheth and Iapetus is greater than it appears to be in print.) According to the Greek myths, Iapetus was the father of Prometheus who, in turn, fathered the human race by molding them out of clay. For this reason, Iapetus was considered by the Greeks to be the ancestor of mankind; and, to the Hebrews, Japheth was the ancestor of that portion of mankind to which the Greeks belonged

 

[no-one-particular]

Sure, Egypt is listed, as it was one of the most ancient of empire and existed thru out the growth of the Jewish culture. Greece is an upstart. The Torah's empire...cough...history doesn't 'correspond' to jack.

I am trying to analyze the structure of the table of nations in Genesis 10. I am trying to understand why the nations were listed in the order they were. I am also trying to understand which nations correspond to which names

There is nothing wrong with trying to understand how the Jewish writings were formed, but it is a fools errand to pretend that they provide a historical framework to understand the most ancient empires. One can find hints of Sumerian literature within Genesis, but that doesn't make Genesis historical. It tells one where some of the sources for the development of Genesis, which came a millennia after the Sumerian document copies we physically have. For example the godess Ninti, is both the Lady of the rib, and the Lady of life and may be the world's oldest surviving literary puns. Linky provides the details:

http://www.gatewaystobabylon.com/myths/texts/retellings/enkininhur.htm

Enki’s greed to eat the eight sacred plants which gave birth to the Vegetal World resonates the eating of the Forbidden Fruit by Adam and Eve, and 6) most remarkably, this myth provides na explanation for one of the most puzzling motifs in the Biblical paradise story - the famous passage describing the fashioning of Eve, the mother of all living, from the rib of Adam. Why a rib instead of another organ to fashion the woman whose name Eve means according to the Bible, ‘she who makes live’? If we look at the Sumerian myth, we see that when Enki gets ill, cursed by Ninhursag, one of his body parts that start dying is the rib. The Sumerian word for rib is ‘ti’ . To heal each o Enki’s dying body parts, Ninhursag gives birth to eight goddesses. The goddess created for the healing of Enki’s rib is called ‘Nin-ti’, ‘the lady of the rib’. But the Sumerian word ‘ti’ also means ‘to make live’. The name ‘Nin-ti’ may therefore mean ‘the lady who makes live’ as well as ‘the lady of the rib’. Thus, a very ancient literary pun was carried over and perpetuated in the Bible, but without its original meaning, because the Hebrew word for ‘rib’ and that for ‘who makes live’ have nothing in common. Moreover, it is Ninhursag who gives her life essence to heal Enki, who is then reborn from her (Kramer, 1981:143-144).

Isaac Asimov did a decent write up discussing the Jewish world view and how they developed some of their holy texts and is available digitally if you want a general readers description for each of those names you listed. Keep in mind that these Jewish story tellers were making their stuff up about 'the origins' roughly 2000 plus years after the early empires (Sumer & Egypt specifically) were already writing. For example:
https://www.holybooks.com/wp-conten...e-to-the-Bible-The-Old-and-New-Testaments.pdf

Japheth

The Greeks, it seems, must be considered—in Biblical terms—to be among the descendants of Japheth. The writers of Genesis may even in
this respect have been influenced by Greek traditions, reaching them dimly from the west.

For instance, Japheth himself has been identified by some with the Titan Iapetus in the Greek myths. (Since the initial "J" in Hebrew names is pronounced like a "Y" in Hebrew, as is the initial "I" in Greek names, the similarity between Japheth and Iapetus is greater than it appears to be in print.) According to the Greek myths, Iapetus was the father of Prometheus who, in turn, fathered the human race by molding them out of clay. For this reason, Iapetus was considered by the Greeks to be the ancestor of mankind; and, to the Hebrews, Japheth was the ancestor of that portion of mankind to which the Greeks belonged

Yes dude. I know. I found it out when I wrote this

http://religion.wikia.com/wiki/At-a-glance/Greek_mythology

 

[Tom Sawyer]

And it looks to me like the lists correspond to mass human migrations in ancient times.

How do the migrations to Scandinavia and India correspond to each other?

From Scandanavia to India

View attachment 15632

I fail to see how that's relevant to your thesis. Yes, some Vikings sailed as far as India ... but that was thousands of years after the migrations to India happened in ancient times and not at all related to those migrations in any way, shape or form.

You may as well say that the migrations to Canada and Japan correspond with each other because I flew there on a trip a few years back. That's about the same relationship with the two.

Also, you're looking into how the lists in Genesis match to each other and then used a map of migrations which occurred thousands of years after those lists were written to back up those lists. That's not how backing things up works.

 

[funinspace]

Sure, Egypt is listed, as it was one of the most ancient of empire and existed thru out the growth of the Jewish culture. Greece is an upstart. The Torah's empire...cough...history doesn't 'correspond' to jack.


There is nothing wrong with trying to understand how the Jewish writings were formed, but it is a fools errand to pretend that they provide a historical framework to understand the most ancient empires. One can find hints of Sumerian literature within Genesis, but that doesn't make Genesis historical. It tells one where some of the sources for the development of Genesis, which came a millennia after the Sumerian document copies we physically have. For example the godess Ninti, is both the Lady of the rib, and the Lady of life and may be the world's oldest surviving literary puns. Linky provides the details:

http://www.gatewaystobabylon.com/myths/texts/retellings/enkininhur.htm


Isaac Asimov did a decent write up discussing the Jewish world view and how they developed some of their holy texts and is available digitally if you want a general readers description for each of those names you listed. Keep in mind that these Jewish story tellers were making their stuff up about 'the origins' roughly 2000 plus years after the early empires (Sumer & Egypt specifically) were already writing. For example:
https://www.holybooks.com/wp-conten...e-to-the-Bible-The-Old-and-New-Testaments.pdf

Japheth

The Greeks, it seems, must be considered—in Biblical terms—to be among the descendants of Japheth. The writers of Genesis may even in
this respect have been influenced by Greek traditions, reaching them dimly from the west.

For instance, Japheth himself has been identified by some with the Titan Iapetus in the Greek myths. (Since the initial "J" in Hebrew names is pronounced like a "Y" in Hebrew, as is the initial "I" in Greek names, the similarity between Japheth and Iapetus is greater than it appears to be in print.) According to the Greek myths, Iapetus was the father of Prometheus who, in turn, fathered the human race by molding them out of clay. For this reason, Iapetus was considered by the Greeks to be the ancestor of mankind; and, to the Hebrews, Japheth was the ancestor of that portion of mankind to which the Greeks belonged

Yes dude. I know. I found it out when I wrote this

http://religion.wikia.com/wiki/At-a-glance/Greek_mythology

WTF??? Well, maybe next week you can research the Skywalker genealogy...

 

[Sarpedon]

What? no China? A list of Empires without China? Why do Christians always ignore China?