Sympathy for the Ignorant

[rousseau]

This is something I've been thinking about lately - how to feel about people who aren't so aware of themselves or the world around them.

In most cases ignorance is pretty benign, it means a person has a few misconceptions, and with a bit of courtesy everything goes on fine.

But let's go through a thought experiment:

We take the most extreme Trump supporter, racist, nationalist, malevolent towards certain groups.

Is it possible to feel sympathy for a person like this? Do they deserve that sympathy? And if not, how should we treat someone like that?

 

[Toni]

This is something I've been thinking about lately - how to feel about people who aren't so aware of themselves or the world around them.

In most cases ignorance is pretty benign, it means a person has a few misconceptions, and with a bit of courtesy everything goes on fine.

But let's go through a thought experiment:

We take the most extreme Trump supporter, racist, nationalist, malevolent towards certain groups.

Is it possible to feel sympathy for a person like this? Do they deserve that sympathy? And if not, how should we treat someone like that?

I don’t have a lot of sympathy for ignorance in general. But then there are large contingents of my family, genetic and by marriage. So I do know for some why they ended up as they have. I know the limits of their education and their experiences with the world outside of their narrow circumstances. And at least some think the same of me.

The truth is that there are a lot of people who have worked very hard their whole lives, made do with next to nothing because no matter how hard they worked, that very little was all they were ever going to get. For at least some, seeing the gains that other people: blacks, women, gay people, Hispanics have made due to the enactment of the Civil rights legislation, they see them as having an unfair advantage and themselves as ignored and left behind unfairly. Instead of seeing that there were serious and egregious injustices and obstacles based on race that gender that held back decent hardworking people, they see how their own circumstances have held them back and it seems just not fair. They believe that simply saying that there is no more discrimination makes it so. They feel victimized.

Trump sounds as uneducated and ill informed as they sometimes are. This, I’ve always believed, was the great appeal of Bush Jr. too. But trump gives voice to their anger and resentment and openly panders to their bigotry, vindicating their mindset.

People always want to feel good about themselves and Trump allows them to feel good about their vocabulary, their education and their bigotry. If someone ‘like them’ can be POTUS, then there isn’t really anything wrong with how they think.

Plus there’s a bunch of end timers out there.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Recently I had a discussion with a person who believes as I do that there are too many of us. My own lifestyle, when calculated out based on my energy consumption/carbon footprint, means that people who live like me don't need any more earths. One is enough if we're good stewards. He, on the other hand, lives a lifestyle that requires six earths to support if all humans lived like him.

Ignorance doesn't hurt the two of us because we're hard working and intelligent enough. We have the ability to find our niche in the ecosystem and the environment, like any organism that wants to survive. Lots of people lack that awareness and a basic skill set that allows them to make observations. The discussion the two of us had started out with observations about homelessness and how to solve the problem, and then progressed into exactly what we as a species should want, and what we're trying to do with our collective lives. Lot's of people can't have such conversations.

Having sympathy is an emotional discussion. It really doesn't solve anything whether we have sympathy or not. It's good to see yourself in another person's place and then try to help them, sympathy or no sympathy, based on what is best for humans and earth.

 

[Toni]

I'd like to add this:

I recognize very well that I am quite fortunate and always have been. My parents placed a high value in our education and pushed us to do well--and while I did not realize this until well into late middle age, apparently praised us rather relentlessly to the parents of some of these conservative relatives who are Trump supporters. Which did not help their parents pass along a lot of positive feelings about their offsprings' talents and prospects.

Because of my parents' vision for their kids and because they never ever let us think there was anything we could not do, all my siblings and I managed to do pretty well for ourselves. In every case I'm thinking of, we're far better off economically than my Trump loving family. Some of it was luck in having parents who saw the best way for us to have a good economic future being through education and who taught us to always think for ourselves. Part of it is that risks we took really did work out for us in ways that did not necessarily work out for my Trumpster relatives--and part of that is luck and part of that is being smart about how we approached some things. That we were more fortunate in some respects does not make us better people than the others and it doesn't make us necessarily smarter. I spent some years when I was really poor, when a missed pay check or even a short one could have easily meant I was on the streets and almost did. Fortunately, this did not last long and by the time I had kids (please note: the first kid was not planned) things were a little more secure and looking up. I can only imagine living life with no economic security even when working your tail off. I've been there but only for a short while and not with kids.

 

[southernhybrid]

Since I'm highly skeptical that there is such a thing as free will, it's usually very easy for me to feel sympathy for the ignorant. While Trump supporters are very disturbing, it doesn't help to judge them harshly. They are just like all of us, heavily influenced by our genetic and environmental backgrounds. That doesn't mean that they can't change when new environmental influences are offered to them, but it may be very difficult for someone who has always thought and believed one way to be open to new evidence or ideas. And, some people aren't intellectually capable of thinking outside the box, or being open to new ideas.

For example, I have one friend who is a Trump supporter. She is a rather caring nurse. She was raised in a conservative Christian home and I imagine her family or her friends have always been Republicans. She gets all her news from Fox, so she's never really been exposed to any more factual sources of news. She's smart and educated when it comes to things related to her profession. She's very caring and has a lot of empathy for her patients. So, I admire her positive traits and wish there was a way to help her be better informed regarding some other things. I'm just not sure at this point in her life, that such changes are even possible.

My brother in law, on the other hand has a doctorate degree in dentistry, so he's not ignorant when it comes to science. But, since he was a young child, he was obsessed with money, so he is a Trump supporter for one reason, "he put more money in my pocket" to quote him. He does have some positive traits. He raised and supported his two step children and employs both of them, despite being divorced from their mother. So, once again, I can admire his positive traits and despise his greediness, while realizing that he's had this trait since early childhood, assuming my husband is telling me the truth. Maybe his greed has made him ignorant of the many negative things that Trump is doing to the country. It's complicated.

While I try not to judge others, I am not always able to do so. There are times, when I want to scream at certain people, so sometimes I'm guilty of using sarcasm and humor to make a point to someone who appears to be very ignorant. I can have both sympathy and disgust towards some people. After all, I don't have anymore free will than the next person. . ( And no, I don't want to enter into a discussion about free will. I'm just stating my own position on it )

 

[TV and credit cards]

This is something I've been thinking about lately - how to feel about people who aren't so aware of themselves or the world around them.

In most cases ignorance is pretty benign, it means a person has a few misconceptions, and with a bit of courtesy everything goes on fine.

But let's go through a thought experiment:

We take the most extreme Trump supporter, racist, nationalist, malevolent towards certain groups.

Is it possible to feel sympathy for a person like this? Do they deserve that sympathy? And if not, how should we treat someone like that?

In your example, no. Consider, these proud patriotic Americans were well aware of John McCain's service to his country, yet they disparaged him on command. The same could be said for Bill Taylor and Lt. Col. Vindman. How to treat someone like that? With a noncommittal nod of the head and all effort to close the conversation as quickly as possible.

Beyond your example, carefully worded questions that hopefully causes them to question their position.

 

[steve_bank]

Seriously, an ignorant view.

We are all ignorant. Try chanting 'I am not all knowing and wise' until it sinks in. Even the most aware see only a part of what is really going on across humanity.

Do you know your neighbors and how they act and what they think?

Anyone one who thinks they have it all figured out is foolish. Trump a prime example.

The professional pundits in the last campaign thought they had it figured out, and were surprised when Trump won.

Some people considered me smart. I have been fooled and been ignorant enough times to know I am not that smart.

Most of us become aware of the environment we live in. We all have limits, the trick is seeing those limits.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

We all have limits, the trick is seeing those limits.

That's what the OP is about. I don't think your typical trumpster understands this or even thinks about it.

 

[Treedbear]

The problem is willful ignorance. Closed-mindedness and indoctrination through fear. Simple ignorance is cured with education and inspiring curiosity through the joy of discovery.

 

[prideandfall]

i guess it depends on what you mean by the word "ignorant"

a dictionary definition (and the one i use personally) means having a lack of knowledge or understanding about something.
however, "ignorant" is often used synonymously with "stupid", which has more of a connotation of being mentally incapable of processing information or understanding something.

prior to the internet, i was able to have some empathy for ignorant people because of the extent to which they simply lacked access to information, so it was understandable one would be ignorant on a given subject.
after the last 10 years however it's pretty much inexcusable to be wrong about or unaware of the facts of a thing, and so i've come to view ignorance as an intentional form of lazy self delusion - or, at the least, the product of a personality that doesn't put any stock in being factually accurate.
in either case, i find that pretty much deplorable and dismiss those people out of hand.

as for how to treat them, i would say treat them the same way you would treat a 5 year old who demands that the fruit-filled cookie is called a "pig newton" - correct them once, and then shrug and ignore them and don't allow them to be part of any decision making process because they're incapable of keeping up.

 

[southernhybrid]

All of us are ignorant about some things. Sometimes we may be smart and able to learn in many areas but lack the aptitude. to learn in other areas.


I once chatted with an older man many years ago, while I was having my car repaired. He saw me reading a book, and told me how envious he was that I could read and he had never learned. Considering he was a black man who was probably born around 1925 or so, he probably never had the opportunity to learn, so he remained ignorant. I wasn't aware of any local agency that taught adults how to read, and I also know it's very difficult for an older adult who has never learned how to read, to start reading late in life. So, this man was ignorant, but I had a lot of sympathy for him.

 

[PyramidHead]

Everyone who dwells on these types of questions never considers the possibility that they fall into the category they are asking about.

 

[Toni]

Everyone who dwells on these types of questions never considers the possibility that they fall into the category they are asking about.

Case in point.

 

[steve_bank]

Ignorant means lack of knowledge or experience n an area. Usual a negative connotation as in the

When I first started as an engineer I was utterly ignorant of social dynamics. I was criticized for lacking diplomacy and being too direct. Took years for it to sink in.

A lot of guys would think guys who can't work on cars or do do home repairs are ignorant fools.

There is ignorance and there is willful ignorance. Like theists ignoring science. Or Trump followers ignoring Trump's numerous busyness failures but still see him as a successful business man.

 

[steve_bank]

Everyone who dwells on these types of questions never considers the possibility that they fall into the category they are asking about.

Yea, it points to how somebody sees and relates to people and how someone sees themselves.

 

[southernhybrid]

Well, since I'm not convinced that we even have free will, I'm not convinced that there is such a thing as willful ignorance.

People can change but there are limits on how much environmental influences can impact them. For example, one of my former atheist neighbors was extremely religious, until his young son died quickly due to an infection of some type. The man had prayed and begged his god to save his son. When the boy died, the man almost immediately became an atheist. If his son had lived, he might still be a believer. That'a an example of what I mean by something that happens that has an impact on how a person sees things. When some unexpected tragedy occurs, it can sometimes trigger one to consider that maybe what they previously thought was wrong. On the other hand, the man's mother never considered that her religion wasn't true. She probably just told herself that it was god's will that her grandson died. I doubt she could help feeling any other way. That just worked for her.

 

[bilby]

Ignorance is bliss. I'm not sympathetic; I'm jealous. Lucky bastards.

 

[rousseau]

We all have limits, the trick is seeing those limits.

That's what the OP is about. I don't think your typical trumpster understands this or even thinks about it.

Yea. If you look closely at the OP it melds with Steve's post. I mentioned that ignorance is usually benign, which implies that we're all ignorant to an extent, and that that ignorance is usually benign.

But it's also a matter of degree - some people may be nakedly malevolent - not benign - but unaware of their own malevolence, or at least without the capacity to control it.

So the question is - if someone is by normal definitions a bad person, but has no intellectual capacity to be something different, does it make sense to look down on them? And is there an alternative, positive way to approach such a person?

 

[southernhybrid]

We all have limits, the trick is seeing those limits.

That's what the OP is about. I don't think your typical trumpster understands this or even thinks about it.

Yea. If you look closely at the OP it melds with Steve's post. I mentioned that ignorance is usually benign, which implies that we're all ignorant to an extent, and that that ignorance is usually benign.

But it's also a matter of degree - some people may be nakedly malevolent - not benign - but unaware of their own malevolence, or at least without the capacity to control it.

So the question is - if someone is by normal definitions a bad person, but has no intellectual capacity to be something different, does it make sense to look down on them? And is there an alternative, positive way to approach such a person?

When you say that someone is a bad person, perhaps you have to take things like brain abnormalities into account. For example, psychopathy is an actual brain disease. If my memory is correct, based on a few books I've read several years ago on the subject, this abnormality can be viewed on brain imaging devices. There is currently no cure for psychopathy, and people with this brain abnormality are capable of doing great damage to others. It's not always violence. It can simply be exploitation of people in other ways. But, this has nothing to do with ignorance. It as to do with brain development. Of course these people must be separated from society if they have a history of violence, or exploiting other people, but imo, prison should be humane, which isn't often the case in modern societies. So, sometimes we as a society are as judgmental and cruel as those who we condemn for being cruel. Perhaps we are too ignorant to understand why some people don't experience empathy, so we fail to have empathy for them. We ignorantly believe that they have the will to change, when in fact they often don't.

The problem is that some people lack a moral compass, ether due to biological reasons, or environmental ones, such as how they were raised. Most of us have some some sense of morality. For example, the concept of treating others as we would like to be treated, is commonly accepted as a human universal. We evolved to be empathetic. Even people who are ignorant of many things usually experience empathy. I'd like to think that most people don't purposely try to harm other people, although we all do harmful things unintentionally. Think of what we first world brats have unintentionally done to the environment, often due to our ignorance. Even after we become enlightened regarding the harm that our life long habits have caused, it's not easy to change. Perhaps we don't have the will to change. Again, it's complicated, isn't it. Am I way off topic?

 

[rousseau]

So, sometimes we as a society are as judgmental and cruel as those who we condemn for being cruel. Perhaps we are too ignorant to understand why some people don't experience empathy, so we fail to have empathy for them. We ignorantly believe that they have the will to change, when in fact they often don't.

Yea I fully agree and couldn't have said it better myself.