Syed's Mega-Thread

[Elixir]

Forcing people to do stuff isn't civilising them. .

dont force but convince them reading / writing / cloths are good for them

How? What makes you think that they would prefer running around on scorching sand wearing towels on their heads, vs being perfectly comfortable in their own skin in a jungle environment?
The only way any culture has EVER been able to impose their values upon another is by force (and of course the threats of retribution by the invading culture's favorite imaginary being.)

 

[Keith&Co.]

its a challenge you atheist CANT make them learn to read / write / cloth

I know it's a challenge to atheists. it's in the subject line of the OP and everything.
I'm still asking if you can provide a rational reason why I would be motivated to MAKE them do this?
I also question why you automatically assume that clothing/reading/writing is the only definition of civilization, but that's clearly too deep for you.

i as a BELIEVER in god, it is EASY for me to make them to learn to read / write / cloth themselves

Yeah, well what methods of force are available to you that aren't available to me?
History is full of people outlawing native language and religion, forcing compliance and conformity, taking children away to boarding schools to prevent the passing on of tribal traditions. Nothing in there requires that I believe in a deity.

STILL the difference seems to be that I question the assumption that this is a good thing, all gods aside.

 

[Keith&Co.]

dont force but convince them reading / writing / cloths are good for them

can an atheists convince them?

Ah. You said 'make' from the very beginning. Meaning NOT to give them a choice in the matter.

I gotta say, Syed, it looks to me like you fail this challenge.
I don't want to MAKE someone learn to read and write and wear clothing and you cannot offer any sort of rational basis for that being a goal.

You're going to declare victory, of course, but it's hollow, because it's simply you propping up your own prejudices.

Not really much of a challenge to see it, either.

 

[Elixir]

I know it's a challenge to atheists. it's in the subject line of the OP and everything.
I'm still asking if you can provide a rational reason why I would be motivated to MAKE them do this?
I also question why you automatically assume that clothing/reading/writing is the only definition of civilization, but that's clearly too deep for you.

i as a BELIEVER in god, it is EASY for me to make them to learn to read / write / cloth themselves

Yeah, well what methods of force are available to you that aren't available to me?
History is full of people outlawing native language and religion, forcing compliance and conformity, taking children away to boarding schools to prevent the passing on of tribal traditions. Nothing in there requires that I believe in a deity.

STILL the difference seems to be that I question the assumption that this is a good thing, all gods aside.

Yeah - there's something tragicomic about self-righteous muslims telling other people how great it would be if those others would be just like them.
I think they're trying to convince themselves that at least there are a few other people who are more fucked up than they are. In this case, Syed has picked the wrong set. There may be no people who give less of a fuck about his superstitions than indigenous Amazonian tribes.

Syed - go rent the movie called The Emerald Forest. You might learn a thing or three.

 

[RavenSky]

And apparently, you're not going to explain WHY would we want to make them change....

its a challenge you atheist CANT make them learn to read / write / cloth

i as a BELIEVER in god, it is EASY for me to make them to learn to read / write / cloth themselves

Yes, "believers" do find it very easy to torture and kill others as a means to "make" people wear certain clothing or "make" them give up their own way of life:

Aqsa Parvez, whose Muslim father choked her to death with her hijab after she refused to wear it; and of Amina Muse Ali, a Christian woman in Somalia whom Muslims murdered because she wasn’t wearing a hijab; and of the 40 women who were murdered in Iraq in 2007 for not wearing the hijab; and of Alya Al-Safar, whose Muslim cousin threatened to kill her and harm her family because she stopped wearing the hijab in Britain; and of Amira Osman Hamid, who faces whipping in Sudan for refusing to wear the hijab; and of the Egyptian girl, also named Amira, who committed suicide after being brutalized for her family for refusing to wear the hijab; and of the Muslim and non-Muslim teachers at the Islamic College of South Australia who were told that they had to wear the hijab or be fired; and of the women in Chechnya whom police shot with paintballs because they weren’t wearing hijab; and of the women also in Chechnya who were threatened by men with automatic rifles for not wearing hijab; and of the elementary school teachers in Tunisia who were threatened with death for not wearing hijab; and of the Syrian schoolgirls who were forbidden to go to school unless they wore hijab; and of the women in Gaza whom Hamas has forced to wear hijab; and of the women in Iran who protested against the regime by daring to take off their legally-required hijab; and of the women in London whom Muslim thugs threatened to murder if they didn’t wear hijab; and of the anonymous young Muslim woman who doffed her hijab outside her home and started living a double life in fear of her parents

In 1797, the London Missionary Society put its first missionaries on the shores of Tahiti. Fourteen years later they had not made one convert, even though the happy Tahitians provided them with servants galore, built their houses and fed them. Finally the Christians devised an ingenious plan, which ‘converted’ the entire island in one day. According to a letter written home by brethren J. M. Orsmond, one of their own members, they reduced the local chief, Pomare, to an alcoholic and backed him in a war against other island chiefs, supplying him with firearms, to be used against the other islanders clubs. The understanding was that with his victory all would be forced to convert. Then, a reign of terror followed where non-believers were killed. It was declared illegal by the Christians for anyone to decorate themselves with flowers, to sing (other than hymns), to surf or dance. Within 25 years the native culture of Tahiti and the entire Pacific was extinguished.

Christopher Columbus, a trader of African slaves, is best known as the ‘so-called’ discoverer of America. In his personal log, Columbus wrote that, his purpose in seeking undiscovered worlds was “to bring the Gospel of Jesus Christ to the heathens.” [Columbus’ Book of Prophecies]

On his first voyage Columbus described the natives as follows:

“The people of this island and of all other islands which I have found and seen, … all … are so artless and free with all they possess, that no one would believe it without having seen it. Of anything they have, if you ask them for it, they never say no; rather they invite the person to share it, and show as much love as if they were giving their hearts…” But Colombus’ mission was to take the land for Christendom and convert all these peoples to Christianity or exterminate them and replace their culture, hence:

In whichever island he touched (on his second voyage) his men killed indiscriminately whatever animals and natives they found, “looting and destroying all they found,” as Columbus’ son Fernando put it. The natives were either killed or enslaved. Columbus commented in this regard, that the natives “ought to be good servants… and would easily be made Christians,” because he saw his affairs as the “fulfillment of prophecies in Isaiah.” To any objections from the natives, Columbus responded with, “…with the help of God, we shall … make war against you in all ways and manners that we can, and shall subject you to the yoke and obedience of the Church and of Their Highness. We shall take you and your wives and your children, and shall make slaves of them.”

There were forced conversions in the 12th century under the Almohad dynasty of North Africa and Andalusia, who suppressed the dhimma status of Jews and Christians and gave them the choice between conversion, exile, and being killed.

A form of forced conversion became institutionalized during the Ottoman Empire in the practice of devşirme, a human levy in which Christian boys were seized and collected from their families (usually in the Balkans), enslaved, converted to Islam, and then trained as elite military unit within the Ottoman army or for high-ranking service to the sultan. From the mid to late 14th, through early 18th centuries, the devşirme–janissary system enslaved an estimated 500,000 to one million non–Muslim adolescent males.

Yes, Syed, your choice of word is very telling and very accurate. Suffice to say, this atheist wants absolutely nothing to do with your religion's way of making people "cloth themselves" a certain way. It is your religions that are uncivilized, not the innocents you want to force to your ways.

 

[abaddon]

A Challenge To All Atheists

The challenge presents a false dichotomy.

In the religious past it was religious people that educated people... a few anyway. And so therefore non-religious people can't do the same.

That makes as little sense as saying it's women who spoonfeed children therefore men are not able to spoonfeed children. And god hates men for not being able to spoonfeed children.

 

[cycomiko]

what do you tell them to convince them to learn to read/write/clothe themselves? "i believe in god and he's ashamed of your nakedness"? "learn to read or you'll go to hell and burn forever"? for their way of life, reading and writing may not bring much benefit. just as wearing clothes may not benefit them in any way other than make YOU feel better.

 

[Syed]

all atheists should stop wearing clothes and join them for sake of world peace

You say that as a joke, but do you really think a peaceful world full of nudists would be a bad thing?

no, but human would be just another DUMB animals not capable of learning

 

[funinspace]

I'm edumucated....

 

[Syed]

all atheists should stop wearing clothes and join them for sake of world peace

do you think people started wearing clothes to protect themselves from the elements or do you think humans invented clothing to keep other people from seeing their naughty bits?

if the elements don't require clothes for protection then there's no reason to force people to wear them.

WITHOUT clothing human CAN NOT be civilized and atheists dont know that reading, writing and clothing makes human civilized

 

[Elixir]

WITHOUT clothing human CAN NOT be civilized

Says the representative of one of the LEAST civilized cultures on the planet. It would be hard to find a tribe of indigenous Amazonians that didn't put your "culture" to shame as far as peaceful, harmonious and happy existence goes. Islam today is a perverted, violence-ridden mish-mash of different beliefs that has no purpose beyond inciting extremist un-civilized behavior. You can dress it up and even put lipstick on the pig, but it's still a pig.

and atheists dont know that reading, writing and clothing makes human civilized

Atheists know more about what makes a person civilized than you do, Syed (or any other religious zealot does).
Your ISIS brethren are (usually) clothed, and can read and write (at least the shit that fits on a flag) and they are nothing like civilized.

You lose.

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

I suspect humans invented clothing when those humans in Europe had to deal with ice ages. Make clothing or die of cold. Religion had nothing to do with it.

 

[abaddon]

WITHOUT clothing human CAN NOT be civilized and atheists dont know that reading, writing and clothing makes human civilized

And what does that have to do with religion?

It's religion that puts clothes on people and teaches them to read and write?

If that were true then why are atheists here wearing clothes (I assume they do, usually) and reading and writing and demonstrating that they are, one and all, more well-educated than most (and I think all actually) theists that come here arguing on behalf of religion?

 

[funinspace]

After all, the Greeks gave us so little culture as compared to those amazon tribes...

http://www.livescience.com/4315-ancient-greeks-nude.html

Hurwit's newly published research shows that the Greeks did walk around in the buff in some situations. Men strode about free of their togas in the bedroom and at parties called symposia, where they would eat, drink and carouse. Nudity was also common on the athletic fields and at the Olympic games.

Never mind their sexual proclivities...

 

[Bronzeage]

Is this tribe polluting the earth, starting wars, and burning witches for not believing in their gods? If not, it sounds like they're already civilized. No need to ruin it with religion.

all atheists should stop wearing clothes and join them for sake of world peace

If you could end war and hunger by going naked, would you do it?

 

[DrZoidberg]

Show them examples of the benefits of literacy-.

how do you convince them that literacy benefits them?

Syed, I just want to let you know that everything you have written in this thread proves to me that you are an uncivilised savage, who perhaps shouldn't talk about civilising others.

How about waiting with civilising others until you've learned the virtues of tolerance, humility and patience? You know, all that stuff your prophet argued for. Mohammed was many times more civilised than you, and he was a warlord. That is saying something

 

[Keith&Co.]

WITHOUT clothing human CAN NOT be civilized

Hey, what if i said that tolerance of differences is what makes people civilized?
Or what if I said 'the ability to support your bare assertions' was the definition of civilized? Where does that leave you?

and atheists dont know that reading, writing and clothing makes human civilized

Have we actually SAID that R/W/C does not make people civilized?
We just keep asking you to support YOUR assertion...



Knowing full well that you can't and never will. Because you never do.

 

[Sarpedon]

Q= How to make them wear clothes?
A= Move them to Minnesota.

 

[Syed]

my claimed is that religions civilized human

i just want to know how could atheists civilized human ? can atheists make naked people to wear cloths and read / write?


god hates atheists because atheism CANT civilize human

Yes, Syed. Religion made innocent people do a lot of things under threat of death/harm. You are certainly correct about that part.

But you have failed to support your premise - that your choice of clothing makes a person "civilized"

civilized mean is more then peaceful coexistence and you CANT be peaceful and coexistence without education

naked tribes kill and abuse other too

 

[DrZoidberg]

civilized mean is more then peaceful coexistence and you CANT be peaceful and coexistence without education

naked tribes kill and abuse other too

The Islamic state fighters manages to both put on pants and read, and they've failed in becoming civilized. I think you need to work on your theory as to what leads to civilizing people. I think the answer can be found in the Quran. As well as the Bible, and the holy texts of every religion. Not to mention in the texts that are shared and loved in the secular world.

Clue: the answer is not putting on pants and reading.