Sweden rejects mandatory vaccinations?

[T.G.G. Moogly]

You mean like vaccinations against polio or smallpox or TB? Is that what you mean? I don't get what you are asking. Are you implying that we should not be vaccinating against these and other diseases because it might be better to NOT vaccinate but that we don't really know that for sure? Is that what you are asking?

Not at all. I think we should vaccinate. But we also should try to see if we can improve vaccinations if they are having side effects.

You don't think that is happening?

 

[bilby]

..

 

[bilby]

You mean like vaccinations against polio or smallpox or TB? Is that what you mean? I don't get what you are asking. Are you implying that we should not be vaccinating against these and other diseases because it might be better to NOT vaccinate but that we don't really know that for sure? Is that what you are asking?

Not at all. I think we should vaccinate. But we also should try to see if we can improve vaccinations if they are having side effects.

What's all this 'we' business?

The people who develop vaccines do exactly that all the time. Early vaccines were safe; modern vaccines are even safer.

Of course, you would know this if you were not completely ignorant of the subject - and given your evident interest in the subject, I am skeptical that you can genuinely be so badly informed.

Vaccine manufacturers even took mercury based preservatives out of their products, despite no evidence that these cause the slightest harm, just to assuage the fears of irrational people.

Now are you going to stop spreading fear, uncertainty and denial? Or are you going to keep proselytising for your poorly concealed anti-vaccination agenda?

 

[tupac chopra]

Not at all. I think we should vaccinate. But we also should try to see if we can improve vaccinations if they are having side effects.

You don't think that is happening?

I think it is to some degree. Are studies being done comparing those vaccinated with those unvaccinated looking into more long term health effects. I can't find any. Bilby can't find any either. Do you know of any?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

You mean like vaccinations against polio or smallpox or TB? Is that what you mean? I don't get what you are asking. Are you implying that we should not be vaccinating against these and other diseases because it might be better to NOT vaccinate but that we don't really know that for sure? Is that what you are asking?

Not at all. I think we should vaccinate. But we also should try to see if we can improve vaccinations if they are having side effects.

So you are looking for studies to determine if the vaccination had ill side effects for a person while in their 50's, having been vaccinated 40+ years previously.

I'd be a bit more worried about the effect of continual use of proton pump inhibitor medications, regarding long-term affects.

In general, the long-term affect of vaccination is not suffering from a particular disease.

 

[tupac chopra]

Vaccine manufacturers even took mercury based preservatives out of their products, despite no evidence that these cause the slightest harm, just to assuage the fears of irrational people.

What studies were done to gauge any harm? If you don't do any studies of course you won't find anything.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Vaccine manufacturers even took mercury based preservatives out of their products, despite no evidence that these cause the slightest harm, just to assuage the fears of irrational people.

What studies were done to gauge any harm? If you don't do any studies of course you won't find anything.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

I hate this passive aggressive anti-vaxxer bullshit.

 

[bilby]

You don't think that is happening?

I think it is to some degree. Are studies being done comparing those vaccinated with those unvaccinated looking into more long term health effects. I can't find any. Bilby can't find any either. Do you know of any?

<snip> I linked you to a search that returned thousands of such studies. <snip>

 

[tupac chopra]

I think it is to some degree. Are studies being done comparing those vaccinated with those unvaccinated looking into more long term health effects. I can't find any. Bilby can't find any either. Do you know of any?

<snip> I linked you to a search that returned thousands of such studies. <snip>

No, you were unable to produce one study comparing the health of vaccinated people and non vaccinated people subsequent to vaccinations.

Just one study...that was all I asked for.

You linked me to google scholar looking at the effectiveness of vaccines.

Here is you post here.
https://talkfreethought.org/showthread.php?11149-Studies-on-vaccines&p=415671&viewfull=1#post415671

 

[bilby]

<snip> I linked you to a search that returned thousands of such studies.<snip>.

No, you were unable to produce one study comparing the health of vaccinated people and non vaccinated people subsequent to vaccinations.

Just one study...that was all I asked for.

You linked me to google scholar looking at the effectiveness of vaccines.

Here is you post here.
https://talkfreethought.org/showthread.php?11149-Studies-on-vaccines&p=415671&viewfull=1#post415671

It's not my fault if you can't understand the answer when it is in front of you.

It's not my job to hold your hand and lead you to the answers to each of your questions.

And it's not my place to be kind [to someone] who clings to a falsified belief that is directly responsible for the deaths of children.

<snip>

Your 'questions' are not honest enquiries; they are a passive aggressive propaganda technique <snip>

 

[tupac chopra]

<snip>

 

[Juma]

comparing the health of vaccinated people and non vaccinated people

And? How do the studies provied by bilby not take this question in account?

 

[braces_for_impact]

Myth: No Studies Compare the Health of Unvaccinated and Vaccinated People

Now, stand back! Watch it wiggle! Watch it jiggle! Watch it squirm!

 

[Will Wiley]

Myth: No Studies Compare the Health of Unvaccinated and Vaccinated People

Now, stand back! Watch it wiggle! Watch it jiggle! Watch it squirm!

Well that kinda proves the point doesn't it? There are only an extremely small number of studies and all of them are very narrowly focused. It's barely been studied at all. Hundreds of millions of vaccinations each year and only a few studies that look only at some very narrow things.
What a joke

German study on lower rates of asthma among the vaccinated http://www.jacionline.org/article/S0091-6749(13)01860-5/abstract

Another German study: prevalence of allergic diseases and non-specific infections in children and adolescents was not found to depend on vaccination status. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3057555/
Philippine study on cognitive benefits from vaccines: http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00036846.2011.566203#.VM4Ni2TF8o

Pregnant women who are vaccinated have better birth outcomes compared to non-vaccinated mothers, three studies: http://www.cmaj.ca/content/186/4/E157.long,
http://www.bmj.com/content/346/bmj.f393.long
and http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20630123.

update from 2016, study of 60 000 women finds flu vaccine cuts stillbirths by half: http://cid.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2016/03/10/cid.ciw082.abstract
A 2013 meta-analysis finds the flu vaccine may lower the risk of heart attack http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=1758749

 

[braces_for_impact]

 

[Nice Squirrel]

I would like to thank the anti-vaxxers for the gift of mumps and measles in my neighborhood.

I was about to bring up how we see a rise in these diseases in the Somali neighborhoods in MN. Near you? It's a shame that these anti-vaxxers can't just hurt themselves, they have to hurt the most vulnerable in our society as well.

Yes. I live in the area. Am in the neighborhood daily.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Is this a science discussion or a political one?

Suppose hypothetically that Sweden did in fact allow citizens to decide not to vaccinate. That's a political issue which may or may not also be related to the science. They may just decide that to let people have their freedom, mistaken or not. Thus, political.

However, since the first couple of posts, this thread has become all about the state of the science. So it's not a political discussion any longer.

 

[Nice Squirrel]

<snip> I linked you to a search that returned thousands of such studies. <snip>

No, you were unable to produce one study comparing the health of vaccinated people and non vaccinated people subsequent to vaccinations.

Just one study...that was all I asked for.

You linked me to google scholar looking at the effectiveness of vaccines.

Here is you post here.
https://talkfreethought.org/showthread.php?11149-Studies-on-vaccines&p=415671&viewfull=1#post415671

What you are asking for is a lit review, not a study. You might ask why there has not been a major lit review of the effectiveness of vaccines in the wider population? Probably because evidence for this is not found in vaccination studies, but demographics and epidemiology.

So why did life expectancy suddenly increase in most countries after the population received vaccines? Why do they remain lower when they don't? Why isn't smallpox a thing anymore? Why are mums and measles a thing now? What how does death at a young age trump death at an older age? How do pandemics work? What do epidemiologists do?

I'm asking you to educate yourself to the nature of disease and see how vaccines work among a population. Now if you want to examine a specific vaccine we can do that.

Now back to what you are asking us to bring to you. You are asking us to bring to you an longitudinal study isolating the health effects of vaccines in general. In order to do this we need to establish control groups and control them in sealed environments eating the same foods, forming the same social bonds, performing the same daily tasks for 50 years. We must contain environmental factors such as the emergence of high-fructose corn syrup, and sedentary lifestyles. Now how do we do all this and keep them in touch with the pathogens active in our environment? How do we control for genetic diversity?

This monumental effort would still be of little value as the circumstances of our lives are constantly changing. Therefore we use demographic and epidemiological studies to see the effects of vaccines in the overall population.

Once again I ask you to answer this question: When is dying or being disabled from a preventable disease at a younger age more desirable than living longer?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Well that kinda proves the point doesn't it? There are only an extremely small number of studies and all of them are very narrowly focused. It's barely been studied at all. Hundreds of millions of vaccinations each year and only a few studies that look only at some very narrow things.

Life expectancy has increased and some diseases have been virtually eliminated.

How about we ask about how non-vaccinated people reap benefits of herd immunity, and have the fucking balls to whine about the dangers of the vaccinations they are indirectly benefiting from. Anti-vaxxers are at best dangerously ignorant.

 

[Playball40]

You mean like vaccinations against polio or smallpox or TB? Is that what you mean? I don't get what you are asking. Are you implying that we should not be vaccinating against these and other diseases because it might be better to NOT vaccinate but that we don't really know that for sure? Is that what you are asking?

Not at all. I think we should vaccinate. But we also should try to see if we can improve vaccinations if they are having side effects.

The side effects are typically very mild. There are rare cases of extreme reactions, but they are so extremely rare they won't even register on any scale against the benefits (or side effects from the diseases they are trying to prevent).