Sudan Massacre

[pood]

Maybe you are saying that “true Christians,” whatever that means, adhering to supposed Christian values, would never have let people like Hitler or Mussolini come to power in the first place? I am spitballing here because your argument remains opaque rather than transparent.

"True Christians" would have opposed Hitler. Socialists opposed him, so I guess that they could be considered true Christians (even if many of them may have been atheists). Hitler was a theist. Also Hitler's hatred of Jews came from centuries of European Christian hatred of Jews. He read some anti-Semitic pamphlets after WWI that radicalised his beliefs.

Was Hitler a theist? He seemed to have adhered to some form of providence, just like Lincoln. But he definitely was not a Christian, though he sometimes used Christianity as a prop to further seduce his gullible followers. I think he thought of religion as a pragmatic tool to fool people. As noted, he ruminated that Islam would have been more suitable to Germany than Christianity.

 

[laughing dog]

I am genuinely stumped.

Based on my understanding of history, it is my opinion that kn general, Christian nations were more dangerous to world than Islamic countries during the 20th century based on them starting WWI and WWII in Europe, and their willingness to violently intervene in 3rd world countries/colonies. This dangerous potential is exhibited in this century as well.

In my opinion. Islamic countries are more dangerous in general to their citizens than Christian countries.

I do not understand how you think that certain nations (but not others) that were predominantly Christian started 20th century wars because of Christianity. This seems to be your implication, but clearly this was not the case. If it is not the case that you think these wars were started because of Christianity, then I again have no idea what your point is, except to slur Christians. Note that I am an atheist.

“Because of Christianity “ has not been used by me. I stated my opinion. Clearly you don’t get it. I observed what I think is a strong correlation. While correlation is not causation, it may be suggestive.

 

[Politesse]

Both he and Hitler despised Christianity.

If "despising" Christianity does not stop you from publically endorsing Christianity and declaring it a state religion, investing millions of dollars and extinguishing hundreds of thousands of lives executing the projects of the Christian church, ruthlessly persecuting all other faiths than Christianity... I dunno man, you may not be very good at despising things. If they privately had doubts, that was great for them I guess but meant fuck-all to their many victims. If you don't want to be associated with Christianity, maybe don't go out of your way to violently and enduringly associate yourself with Christianity.

 

[Toni]

Just wanted to add the obligatory reminder that the KKK regards itself as a Christian organization.

In my admittedly limited knowledge of religious motivated terrorism, I would also like to point out that it is rare or perhaps non-existent that such acts of violence and aggression can be reconciled with a knowledgeable understanding of religious teachings.

However, religious teachings can be Abd have been twisted sufficiently to justify whatever acts of greed and power lust are committed. I look mostly at the justification of enslaving kidnapped Africans and their descendants and the genocide committed against indigenous peoples in the Americas, but I know that the US is hardly the only nation to use religion to justify atrocities committed against indigenous populations

 

[pood]

Both he and Hitler despised Christianity.

If "despising" Christianity does not stop you from publically endorsing Christianity and declaring it a state religion, investing millions of dollars and extinguishing hundreds of thousands of lives executing the projects of the Christian church, ruthlessly persecuting all other faiths than Christianity... I dunno man, you may not be very good at despising things. If they privately had doubts, that was great for them I guess but meant fuck-all to their many victims. If you don't want to be associated with Christianity, maybe don't go out of your way to violently and enduringly associate yourself with Christianity.

Hitler did not massacre Jews and others in the name of Christianity but in the name of his Nazi Aryan master race. To blame Christianity for what Hitler did is just ludicrous. Hitler was not presiding over a Christian theocracy. That was a hooked cross on the flag, not a cross.

 

[Politesse]

Both he and Hitler despised Christianity.

If "despising" Christianity does not stop you from publically endorsing Christianity and declaring it a state religion, investing millions of dollars and extinguishing hundreds of thousands of lives executing the projects of the Christian church, ruthlessly persecuting all other faiths than Christianity... I dunno man, you may not be very good at despising things. If they privately had doubts, that was great for them I guess but meant fuck-all to their many victims. If you don't want to be associated with Christianity, maybe don't go out of your way to violently and enduringly associate yourself with Christianity.

Hitler did not massacre Jews and others in the name of Christianity but in the name of his Nazi Aryan master race. To blame Christianity for what Hitler did is just ludicrous. Hitler was not presiding over a Christian theocracy. That was a hooked cross on the flag, not a cross.

Your perspective is unconnected to Hitler's actual public position on Christianity, and his policies concerning Christian vs non-Christian faiths. To wit, exile for Christian minorities, and violent eradication for Judaism. His staff advanced a Christian theological school of his own, positives Christentum, officially sponsored by the Party itself. Whatever he may have "felt", what he did was advance a violent, authoritarian, theocratic state. What Hitler felt is speculative. What he did is a choesive, undeniable collection of facts.

Now, is it also true that Hitler was obsessed with the idea a master race, and paranoid hatred of all Jews? Yes. Yes, he most certainly was. That is not in dispute.

 

[pood]

I am genuinely stumped.

Based on my understanding of history, it is my opinion that kn general, Christian nations were more dangerous to world than Islamic countries during the 20th century based on them starting WWI and WWII in Europe, and their willingness to violently intervene in 3rd world countries/colonies. This dangerous potential is exhibited in this century as well.

In my opinion. Islamic countries are more dangerous in general to their citizens than Christian countries.

I do not understand how you think that certain nations (but not others) that were predominantly Christian started 20th century wars because of Christianity. This seems to be your implication, but clearly this was not the case. If it is not the case that you think these wars were started because of Christianity, then I again have no idea what your point is, except to slur Christians. Note that I am an atheist.

“Because of Christianity “ has not been used by me. I stated my opinion. Clearly you don’t get it. I observed what I think is a strong correlation. While correlation is not causation, it may be suggestive.

Yes, and I pointed out that correlation was not causation, with which you now agree. So again, what is your argument here? Hitler was not leading a Christian theocracy. His ideology was essentially a state religion revolving around supposed Aryan superiority over “inferior races.” Likewise, Stalin had a state religion called Communism that actively suppressed the church. Hitler did too, to some extent

Nazi persecution of the Catholic Church in Germany

The barest sketch of an argument here would be that there was always a strain of anti-Semitism in Christianity, which would have coincided with HItler’s anti-Semitism.

 

[pood]

Both he and Hitler despised Christianity.

If "despising" Christianity does not stop you from publically endorsing Christianity and declaring it a state religion, investing millions of dollars and extinguishing hundreds of thousands of lives executing the projects of the Christian church, ruthlessly persecuting all other faiths than Christianity... I dunno man, you may not be very good at despising things. If they privately had doubts, that was great for them I guess but meant fuck-all to their many victims. If you don't want to be associated with Christianity, maybe don't go out of your way to violently and enduringly associate yourself with Christianity.

Hitler did not massacre Jews and others in the name of Christianity but in the name of his Nazi Aryan master race. To blame Christianity for what Hitler did is just ludicrous. Hitler was not presiding over a Christian theocracy. That was a hooked cross on the flag, not a cross.

Your perspective is unconnected to Hitler's actual public position on Christianity, and his policies concerning Christian vs non-Christian faiths. To wit, exile for Christian minorities, and violent eradication for Judaism. His staff advanced a Christian theological school of his own, positives Christentum, officially sponsored by the Party itself. Whatever he may have "felt", what he did was advance a violent, authoritarian, theocratic state. What Hitler felt is speculative. What he did is a choesive, undeniable collection of facts.

It has nothing to do with what Hitler felt, it has to do with the fact the Nazi ideology of Aryan racial superiority had nothing to do with Christianity. Hitler also persecuted Catholics (see above). I still don’t know what the argument here is — that because Germany happened to be a majority Christian state at the time Hitler hijacked it, Christians were somehow to blame for World War II? No, Nazis, fascists, and Japanese imperialists were to blame for World War II.

 

[pood]

Hitler did not give a flying fuck about the majority Christian nations he invaded and attacked.

 

[pood]

Nazi persecution of the Catholic Church in Poland

 

[pood]

Biographer Ian Kershaw said in the scheme for the Germanization of Central and Eastern Europe, that Hitler had made it clear there would be "no place in this utopia for the Christian Churches"

 

[pood]

It is true that many Christians in Germany caved to Hitler out of an instinct for self preservation, but this hardly makes them different from any other groups of humans of faith or non-faith on planet earth. Since Hitler and his merry band of murderers were basically all atheists, it would make more sense to blame atheism for World War II, but that would also be wrong. Hitler and the Nazis, Mussolini and the fascists, and Japan and their militarized imperialists were to blame. No one else.

 

[pood]

LD admits that “because of Christianity” is not his argument. So what IS his argument? What point is being made here?

 

[bilby]

Hitler and his merry band of murderers were basically all atheists

That's not certain at all. Hitler's religious beliefs are unclear, but were shaped by Austrian and German Protestantism, and his henchmen were mostly Protestant Christians albeit not hugely committed to their faith, and happy to subordinate it to Naziism.

The idea that they were atheists seems to owe more to post-war American Christians trying to denigrate atheism, than it does to their religious practices or stated beliefs.

 

[pood]

While correlation is not causation, it may be suggestive.

Suggestive of what?

 

[pood]

Hitler and his merry band of murderers were basically all atheists

That's not certain at all. Hitler's religious beliefs are unclear, but were shaped by Austrian and German Protestantism, and his henchmen were mostly Protestant Christians albeit not hugely committed to their faith, and happy to subordinate it to Naziism.

Granted, and Protestants in Germany were also persecuted under the Nazis unless they bent the knee. Hitler made it clear that he wanted to wipe out Christianity in Germany and in the lands Germany took over, and his henchmen, whatever their private religious beliefs, didn’t seem to object.

So I just don’t get what we are talking about here. LD seems to be saying that because Germany was a mainly Christian nation when Hitler hijacked it then something something something World War II. But what is that something? It remains opaque.

 

[pood]

This entire line of argument, if it can be called that, seems to be gesturing at guilt by association, which is precisely why we should not confuse causation with correlation.

 

[Bomb#20]

Since Hitler and his merry band of murderers were basically all atheists, ....

You know Hitler outlawed all the atheist organizations, don't you? And his associates report him criticizing atheism in private conversations. He appears to have been some sort of deist or pantheist, rejecting existing organized religions but believing in a higher creator. You really can't generalize about the merry band of murderers -- like any gang tied together by secular purposes their religious views varied. Several of them were deists of some sort; Bormann was a known atheist; Goering was into the old pagan Germanic religion; Himmler was an esoteric religious nutcase who wouldn't let atheists join the SS; and the only thing Goebbels appears to have worshipped was Hitler.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Here is an interesting link:

What happened to humanists during the Third Reich?

Today on Holocaust Memorial Day we remember victims of the genocidal Nazi regime and of the many similar acts of other governments in the years since. As it’s Humanists UK’s 125th anniversary and a year for humanist history, I also want to think about the Nazis' humanist victims. ‘The fight again

andrewcopson.com

 

[Politesse]

Both he and Hitler despised Christianity.

If "despising" Christianity does not stop you from publically endorsing Christianity and declaring it a state religion, investing millions of dollars and extinguishing hundreds of thousands of lives executing the projects of the Christian church, ruthlessly persecuting all other faiths than Christianity... I dunno man, you may not be very good at despising things. If they privately had doubts, that was great for them I guess but meant fuck-all to their many victims. If you don't want to be associated with Christianity, maybe don't go out of your way to violently and enduringly associate yourself with Christianity.

Hitler did not massacre Jews and others in the name of Christianity but in the name of his Nazi Aryan master race. To blame Christianity for what Hitler did is just ludicrous. Hitler was not presiding over a Christian theocracy. That was a hooked cross on the flag, not a cross.

Your perspective is unconnected to Hitler's actual public position on Christianity, and his policies concerning Christian vs non-Christian faiths. To wit, exile for Christian minorities, and violent eradication for Judaism. His staff advanced a Christian theological school of his own, positives Christentum, officially sponsored by the Party itself. Whatever he may have "felt", what he did was advance a violent, authoritarian, theocratic state. What Hitler felt is speculative. What he did is a choesive, undeniable collection of facts.

It has nothing to do with what Hitler felt, it has to do with the fact the Nazi ideology of Aryan racial superiority had nothing to do with Christianity. Hitler also persecuted Catholics (see above). I still don’t know what the argument here is — that because Germany happened to be a majority Christian state at the time Hitler hijacked it, Christians were somehow to blame for World War II? No, Nazis, fascists, and Japanese imperialists were to blame for World War II.

Then you lack both historical education and reading comprehension. Hitler was the head of an explicitly theocratic state, that both created and endorsed a Christian denomination. If that is not "really" Christian, what would be? I really don't care what the aristocracy privately thinks, or says to friends, or writes about in their diaries. A fascist theocratic state functions exactly the same way whether its head of state "really believes" the doctrines it enforces on the populace or not. My general presumption is that no authoritarian leader is particularly religious - piety and egotism don't exactly sleep comfortably together - but that doesn't change the impact of their actions.