(split) Affirmative Action discussion

[Toni]

People who become certified as doctors (i.e. pass all the hurdles) should be credible on that basis alone. So, I find that conclusion about their credibility being undermined to be rather puzzling because it is literally irrational.

And the real issue is not what score someone got on an exam, but their qualities and effectiveness as a physician.

It is not at all irrational. All qualified doctors are not equally qualified.

Do you have grades in your courses, laughing dog? Do you think someone who got 60% in one of your exams is equally knowledgeable as someone who got 95%?

Are you suggesting that someone's qualities as a physician are unrelated to how well they do on USMLE? Do you think that allowing lesser-qualified Blacks into medical school, which has a direct consequence on qualification and graduation rates, isn't a problem? The racist discrimination alone is already a problem, let alone the entirely predictable consequences.

The amount of straw-clutching on this thread has been seen, but it can hardly be believed.

What is the acceptance rate for the USMLE overall? At each step?

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So discrimination is acceptable if they deliberately choose to discriminate?? They're changing the admissions criteria to rig the game.

You need to check your scuba gear. I don't think you're getting enough oxygen if you believe that you know more about medical school admissions than do those who actually perform that job professionally.

 

[EricK]

As if there is no difference in professionals? Really?

As if all physicians are interchangeable? Really?

Do you believe that how good a physician is depends upon his or her race?


Frankly, the worst doctors I've ever encountered were the ones who went to medical school when almost all medical students were white and male. And no, it is not because they are now nearing retirement and 'out of touch.' Some of them were pretty lousy doctors 40 years ago and more.

So it was when there were even fewer Asians admitted than now?

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As if there is no difference in professionals? Really?

As if all physicians are interchangeable? Really?

Do you believe that how good a physician is depends upon his or her race?


Frankly, the worst doctors I've ever encountered were the ones who went to medical school when almost all medical students were white and male. And no, it is not because they are now nearing retirement and 'out of touch.' Some of them were pretty lousy doctors 40 years ago and more.

So it was when there were even fewer Asians admitted than now?

 

[Toni]

Do you believe that how good a physician is depends upon his or her race?


Frankly, the worst doctors I've ever encountered were the ones who went to medical school when almost all medical students were white and male. And no, it is not because they are now nearing retirement and 'out of touch.' Some of them were pretty lousy doctors 40 years ago and more.

So it was when there were even fewer Asians admitted than now?

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As if there is no difference in professionals? Really?

As if all physicians are interchangeable? Really?

Do you believe that how good a physician is depends upon his or her race?


Frankly, the worst doctors I've ever encountered were the ones who went to medical school when almost all medical students were white and male. And no, it is not because they are now nearing retirement and 'out of touch.' Some of them were pretty lousy doctors 40 years ago and more.

So it was when there were even fewer Asians admitted than now?

It was from a time when only GPA and MCAT scores mattered. Who cared if the applicant could actually talk to other people. Or listen. Or cared to do either?

Arrogance is not a great quality in a physician.

 

[Metaphor]

It's pretty easy to fail to see the forest when you are looking for one kind of tree.

Toni, it's you who can't see the forest. It's a forest of racist discrimination against Asians and Whites.

These raw numbers do not say to how many or which schools black, Asian, white and Hispanic candidates submitted applications. To show discrimination one would have to look at numbers for each of the 171 medical schools in the U.S. and to compare acceptance rates and credentials of their pool of applicants.

No, you would not have to look at all 171. But indeed, it would be very interesting to see the individual schools and their acceptance rates.

None of the data linked show anything about any particular medical schools' admissions with regards to demographics.

It is not the case where there is a single pool of applicants and medical schools select from the same pool. Different candidates apply to different schools, based upon many criteria, including geography, chances of being accepted, expense, types of programs available, etc. Some students, particularly those who come from less wealthy families, specifically pick medical schools which have programs which reduce costs to students if they agree to practice in under served locations. Others attend medical school at the expense of the military and must make selections based upon that. Just for starters.

Do you actually believe that the staggering difference in acceptance rates by race can be explained away by self-selection in differential medical school applications?

Do you actually believe that Asian students are so full of themselves that they apply to fewer schools and harder schools than Black students?

Do you believe that top scoring Asian students are applying to the same medical schools that lower scoring black and hispanic students are applying to? Do you really believe that?

Do you believe that there is absolutely no discrimination by race going on? Do you really believe that?

Do you know that most medical schools and certainly most publicly funded medical schools preferentially offer admissions to applicants who are residents of that state or who have ties to that state? Do you know WHY they would do this?

Do you really believe this explains the discrepant admission rates by race?

Do you suppose that a medical school who focussed on medical research and had top ranked programs in gastroenterology would have fewer or more slots available for applicants whose stated goal was to practice obstetrics or pediatrics?

What on earth has this to do with anything?

Blacks have the lowest acceptance rates, followed by Asian applicants and then it is neck and neck between white and hispanic applicants. The acceptance rate for Asian applicants is significantly closer to that of white or hispanic applicants than to the acceptance rate of black applicants.

No. At any given MCAT/GPA level, Blacks have the highest acceptance rates.

I know of not a single medical school applicants--those who got in and those who did not-who was unaware of the selection criteria, including things other than GPA and MCAT scores. Not one. These are not dumb people. Nor are they uninformed. Many spend years and years building what they hope will be an ideal resume to get them into medical school. They select their course work, their volunteer work, their projects with that goal in mind.

A pity for them they can't select their race.

Do you have any evidence that the quality of candidates admitted to medical schools is not sufficiently high?

Do you mean like lower rates for Black graduation and Blacks passing the USMLEs?

 

[Metaphor]

What is the acceptance rate for the USMLE overall? At each step?

USMLE is an exam; it doesn't have an acceptance rate.

Blacks have a lower mean, and a much higher failure rate, on step 1 of USMLE. I linked to this in an earlier post.

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So it was when there were even fewer Asians admitted than now?

- - - Updated - - -

As if there is no difference in professionals? Really?

As if all physicians are interchangeable? Really?

Do you believe that how good a physician is depends upon his or her race?


Frankly, the worst doctors I've ever encountered were the ones who went to medical school when almost all medical students were white and male. And no, it is not because they are now nearing retirement and 'out of touch.' Some of them were pretty lousy doctors 40 years ago and more.

So it was when there were even fewer Asians admitted than now?

It was from a time when only GPA and MCAT scores mattered. Who cared if the applicant could actually talk to other people. Or listen. Or cared to do either?

Arrogance is not a great quality in a physician.

Of course. It's those uppity Asians' fault for not talking, listening, or caring.

 

[Metaphor]

Do you believe that how good a physician is depends upon his or her race?

In an environment where there was no racist discrimination in American medical schools, no. There'd be no difference in physician quality based on race, because people would be let into medical school based on their quality alone.

In an environment where US medical schools are racist in their admission criteria, and let in lower-qualified Black students over higher-qualified Asian and White students, yes.

 

[Axulus]

The overall pass rate for the US medical licensing exam (step 1) is 85%. However, 50% of Blacks fail step 1.

So no. Medical schools are not doing a 'stellar' job by using racist admission criteria to admit Blacks that are less qualified than White and Asian colleagues.

In fact, given the differences in scores, the racist admissions criteria is doing long-term damage to Black physicians in the U.S., because their credibility is undermined by the very real lower performance of Black medical students in USMLE exams. The average Black doctor has lower scores on their licensing exams than the average White or Asian doctor.

I'm surprised that no one has responded to this by saying that the medical licensing exam only measures your ability to do well on licensing exams, not how well you'll do as a physician, and that Davka hasn't accused you of being a racist.

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But there are many forms of AA, just like geographic diversity. Yet you condemn AA.

It isn't. But then again, AA need not mean arbitrary discrimination.

Society suffers whenever selection decisions are based or influenced by arbitrary criteria.

I suppose that depends on what you mean by arbitrary.

When AA operates like this, do you agree that it is wrong?

Operates like what?

Exactly like the chart suggests, as further illuminated by Metaphor: giving bonus points in your selection criteria process based on their race.

 

[Toni]

Do you believe that how good a physician is depends upon his or her race?

In an environment where there was no racist discrimination in American medical schools, no. There'd be no difference in physician quality based on race, because people would be let into medical school based on their quality alone.

In an environment where US medical schools are racist in their admission criteria, and let in lower-qualified Black students over higher-qualified Asian and White students, yes.

I will go you one better:

If there was no discrimination--not racial, not gender, not sexual orientation, not socioeconomic status, not religious discrimination, then people would be admitted to schools and programs based solely upon their qualifications, motivation, interest and desire to attend that program.

 

[Toni]

Toni, it's you who can't see the forest. It's a forest of racist discrimination against Asians and Whites.

These raw numbers do not say to how many or which schools black, Asian, white and Hispanic candidates submitted applications. To show discrimination one would have to look at numbers for each of the 171 medical schools in the U.S. and to compare acceptance rates and credentials of their pool of applicants.

No, you would not have to look at all 171. But indeed, it would be very interesting to see the individual schools and their acceptance rates.

Indeed.

Do you actually believe that the staggering difference in acceptance rates by race can be explained away by self-selection in differential medical school applications?

Please look again at the overall acceptance rates. You will note that your own link shows the lowest acceptance rate is for black applicants.
Yes, I do believe that different pools of students apply to different medical schools based on a lot of criteria. Some students apply only to schools they consider to be the most elite. Most students apply to programs based largely upon geography. An overwhelming number of students in the midwest, for example, will apply to medical schools located in the midwest rather than on the east coast or west coast. Relatively few New York students will apply to medical school in Louisiana.

Do you actually believe that Asian students are so full of themselves that they apply to fewer schools and harder schools than Black students?

No, I believe that it is much more likely that very high scoring students apply to many more and many more 'prestigious' schools than do less stellarly qualified students. This becomes more likely if the student is from an upper middle class family vs a working class family. Applications cost money, for one thing. For another, a student from a poorer family will be happy to get into medical school, period. They are less likely to pout if they don't get into Harvard. Or only get into 3 of their top 5 schools.

Do you know that most medical schools and certainly most publicly funded medical schools preferentially offer admissions to applicants who are residents of that state or who have ties to that state? Do you know WHY they would do this?

Do you really believe this explains the discrepant admission rates by race?

Since we don't have the demographic admissions data by sorted by school, it is impossible to know. But I am almost certain that Howard University College of Medicine receives a much higher percentage of applications from black students than does Harvard. And a much lower percentage of applicants from Asians and whites. Further, since Howard has a special mission to provide physicians to under served communities, I believe that alone will further select for certain students and against certain students. For example, it is less likely that upper income students are going to be interested in attending a school with an emphasis on under served communities.

Do you suppose that a medical school who focussed on medical research and had top ranked programs in gastroenterology would have fewer or more slots available for applicants whose stated goal was to practice obstetrics or pediatrics?

What on earth has this to do with anything?

It has to do with who they admit.

A medical school which receives and over abundance of applications from stellar applicants who all express the desire to become dermatologists, for example, will pass over some of them for less stellar applicants who express a desire to become obstetricians or pediatricians or thoracic surgeons. Or the reverse. If most of the applicants wish to be thoracic surgeons, then those who wish to become dermatologists will stand out more.

More and more, medical schools are looking for candidates who are interested in working with under served populations. Medicine is no longer the ticket to a high income and high status. It is once again becoming a profession which needs practitioners whose goal is to serve. That matters as well in the selection process.

Blacks have the lowest acceptance rates, followed by Asian applicants and then it is neck and neck between white and hispanic applicants. The acceptance rate for Asian applicants is significantly closer to that of white or hispanic applicants than to the acceptance rate of black applicants.

No. At any given MCAT/GPA level, Blacks have the highest acceptance rates.

Overall, blacks have the lowest acceptance rate. Significantly lower.

I know of not a single medical school applicants--those who got in and those who did not-who was unaware of the selection criteria, including things other than GPA and MCAT scores. Not one. These are not dumb people. Nor are they uninformed. Many spend years and years building what they hope will be an ideal resume to get them into medical school. They select their course work, their volunteer work, their projects with that goal in mind.

A pity for them they can't select their race.

Do you really believe that white or asian students would like to become black?

Do you have any evidence that the quality of candidates admitted to medical schools is not sufficiently high?

Do you mean like lower rates for Black graduation and Blacks passing the USMLEs?

You realize that as more black students are admitted, their completion rate similarly increases, right?

 

[George S]

So it was when there were even fewer Asians admitted than now?

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As if there is no difference in professionals? Really?

As if all physicians are interchangeable? Really?

Do you believe that how good a physician is depends upon his or her race?


Frankly, the worst doctors I've ever encountered were the ones who went to medical school when almost all medical students were white and male. And no, it is not because they are now nearing retirement and 'out of touch.' Some of them were pretty lousy doctors 40 years ago and more.

So it was when there were even fewer Asians admitted than now?

It was from a time when only GPA and MCAT scores mattered. Who cared if the applicant could actually talk to other people. Or listen. Or cared to do either?

Arrogance is not a great quality in a physician.

Having been an Army x-ray technician I have dealt with surgeons. All were equally arrogant, but not equally skilled. When a doctor, technician, or nurse needed surgery there were two that none of them ever used.

 

[Metaphor]

Please look again at the overall acceptance rates.

The overall acceptance rates, without taking into account the differences in the applicant pool, are irrelevant.

When grades and aptitude are controlled for, Asians have the lowest acceptance rates and Blacks the highest.

Yes, I do believe that different pools of students apply to different medical schools based on a lot of criteria. Some students apply only to schools they consider to be the most elite. Most students apply to programs based largely upon geography. An overwhelming number of students in the midwest, for example, will apply to medical schools located in the midwest rather than on the east coast or west coast. Relatively few New York students will apply to medical school in Louisiana.

So, answer the question. Do you actually believe this is enough to explain away the discrepancy rates by race? Do you actually believe that?

No, I believe that it is much more likely that very high scoring students apply to many more and many more 'prestigious' schools than do less stellarly qualified students. This becomes more likely if the student is from an upper middle class family vs a working class family. Applications cost money, for one thing. For another, a student from a poorer family will be happy to get into medical school, period. They are less likely to pout if they don't get into Harvard. Or only get into 3 of their top 5 schools.

So, all of the difference can be explained by uppity Asians who are too full of themselves to apply for, or accept if offered, slots in lower-ranking schools?

Further, since Howard has a special mission to provide physicians to under served communities, I believe that alone will further select for certain students and against certain students. For example, it is less likely that upper income students are going to be interested in attending a school with an emphasis on under served communities.

Do you really believe that this explains the difference, across tens of thousands of students, over decades?

More and more, medical schools are looking for candidates who are interested in working with under served populations. Medicine is no longer the ticket to a high income and high status. It is once again becoming a profession which needs practitioners whose goal is to serve. That matters as well in the selection process.

I see. The uppity Asians' goal isn't to serve, but to attain a glorified status.

Overall, blacks have the lowest acceptance rate. Significantly lower.

That's because their grades and aptitude scores are lower. Significantly lower.

Do you really believe that white or asian students would like to become black?

I believe White and Asian students would prefer not to be discriminated against because of their race.

You realize that as more black students are admitted, their completion rate similarly increases, right?

So, we should even further discriminate against Whites and Asians, because Blacks are failing?

 

[laughing dog]

People who become certified as doctors (i.e. pass all the hurdles) should be credible on that basis alone. So, I find that conclusion about their credibility being undermined to be rather puzzling because it is literally irrational.

And the real issue is not what score someone got on an exam, but their qualities and effectiveness as a physician.

It is not at all irrational. All qualified doctors are not equally qualified.

Sorry, but anyone who has passed all the obstacles in a certification process is credible. That is the entire point of the certification process. It is irrational to think otherwise.

 

[laughing dog]

People who become certified as doctors (i.e. pass all the hurdles) should be credible on that basis alone. So, I find that conclusion about their credibility being undermined to be rather puzzling because it is literally irrational.

And the real issue is not what score someone got on an exam, but their qualities and effectiveness as a physician.

As if there is no difference in professionals? Really?

As if all physicians are interchangeable? Really?

No to both irrelevant questions.

 

[Metaphor]

It is not at all irrational. All qualified doctors are not equally qualified.

Sorry, but anyone who has passed all the obstacles in a certification process is credible. That is the entire point of the certification process. It is irrational to think otherwise.

No; it's irrational to think all people who have passed a course are equally qualified.

It's also irrational to dismiss the high number of Blacks who fail USMLE. Such failures means either graduating later, wasted resources in re-sitting, or even dropping out of medicine all together.

 

[Axulus]

It is not at all irrational. All qualified doctors are not equally qualified.

Sorry, but anyone who has passed all the obstacles in a certification process is credible. That is the entire point of the certification process. It is irrational to think otherwise.

The certification process is the bare minimum standard to allow someone to practice in the profession. There is a whole range of skills and abilities beyond the bare minimum.

 

[laughing dog]

Sorry, but anyone who has passed all the obstacles in a certification process is credible. That is the entire point of the certification process. It is irrational to think otherwise.

No; it's irrational to think all people who have passed a course are equally qualified.

No one made that claim. You specifically referred to the credibility of black physicians. The land down under must be different than the USA. Physicians here do not post their grades in their offices, just their certifications. You appear to conflate "quality" with "credibility".

It's also irrational to dismiss the high number of Blacks who fail USMLE. Such failures means either graduating later, wasted resources in re-sitting, or even dropping out of medicine all together.

Yes, but until there is data on how those relate to the ultimate quality of those doctors upon and after certification, you seem to be making a big deal of something pretty minor.

I read the article you cited. Near the end of it, the authors qualify their findings based on some possible important missing variables. In addition, I would like to know if these failures are concentrated by school(s).

 

[laughing dog]

Sorry, but anyone who has passed all the obstacles in a certification process is credible. That is the entire point of the certification process. It is irrational to think otherwise.

The certification process is the bare minimum standard to allow someone to practice in the profession. There is a whole range of skills and abilities beyond the bare minimum.

Do you agree or not that anyone who passes the certification process is a credible practitioner? A qualified practitioner?

 

[Metaphor]

No one made that claim. You specifically referred to the credibility of black physicians. The land down under must be different than the USA. Physicians here do not post their grades in their offices, just their certifications. You appear to conflate "quality" with "credibility".

If this is a quibble over the word 'credible', then I'll exchange it for 'quality'. The average Black physician's quality will be perceived to be lower because it is lower, and it all starts with racist admissions policies that let lower-qualified people into medical school.

Yes, but until there is data on how those relate to the ultimate quality of those doctors upon and after certification, you seem to be making a big deal of something pretty minor.

Given the tens of thousands of dollars a year per student that medical tuition fees alone cost, it's a very big deal.

As for the quality of doctors upon and after certification, that's already at least partially answered. The mean for Black students sitting the USMLE is lower than every other race/ethnicity. That would include the mean for the people who passed and the people who didn't.

I read the article you cited. Near the end of it, the authors qualify their findings based on some possible important missing variables. In addition, I would like to know if these failures are concentrated by school(s).

I would love to see admission data by race, undergrad GPA, aptitude scores, etc for individual medical schools. Given the over all size of the discrimination it appears to me that it would have to be a fair chunk of medical schools doing it.

 

[laughing dog]

If this is a quibble over the word 'credible', then I'll exchange it for 'quality'. The average Black physician's quality will be perceived to be lower because it is lower, and it all starts with racist admissions policies that let lower-qualified people into medical school.

I think that conclusion is also unwarranted.

Given the tens of thousands of dollars a year per student that medical tuition fees alone cost, it's a very big deal.

And the point of that is...?

As for the quality of doctors upon and after certification, that's already at least partially answered. The mean for Black students sitting the USMLE is lower than every other race/ethnicity. That would include the mean for the people who passed and the people who didn't.

And the point of that is...?

I would love to see admission data by race, undergrad GPA, aptitude scores, etc for individual medical schools. Given the over all size of the discrimination it appears to me that it would have to be a fair chunk of medical schools doing it.

I dunno about that. Unless I was misreading the linked tables, we are talking about 120 to 150 black medical students per year in total.

 

[Metaphor]

I think that conclusion is also unwarranted.

Given the tens of thousands of dollars a year per student that medical tuition fees alone cost, it's a very big deal.

And the point of that is...?

As for the quality of doctors upon and after certification, that's already at least partially answered. The mean for Black students sitting the USMLE is lower than every other race/ethnicity. That would include the mean for the people who passed and the people who didn't.

And the point of that is...?

I would love to see admission data by race, undergrad GPA, aptitude scores, etc for individual medical schools. Given the over all size of the discrimination it appears to me that it would have to be a fair chunk of medical schools doing it.

I dunno about that. Unless I was misreading the linked tables, we are talking about 120 to 150 black medical students per year in total.

laughing dog, I know you understand statistics, so I know you can't really believe all of this is no big deal.

Medical schools are racist in their admissions. This favours Black students at the expense of White and Asian students. The reasons for the racist admissions policies are not entirely clear, but it's probably heavily influenced by a de facto quota for Black students so that medical school 'looks like' the wider community (whatever that means).

Because Blacks have lower GPAs and aptitude scores but are admitted at higher rates, this means the quality of the average Black applicant is lower than the average White or Asian applicant.

Given that there is already a difference between the groups on day 1 of medical school, it would take a breathtaking miracle for these differences to have disappeared by the time of exams and graduation and practice. But, of course, they haven't disappeared. Grades and aptitude scores are still strongly related to performance, and no amount of racist admission policies can change that.