(split) Affirmative Action discussion

[Jolly_Penguin]

It is discrimination based on race, however you want to sanitize that.

No, it isn't. Making an extra effort to find qualified candidates with specific under-represented characteristics does not require they be hired.

So? If you are making a special effort to find qualified candidates of a particular race, how is that not discrimination based on race?

Such qualified candidates may be unaware of the opening or opportunities for a variety of reasons. Such an effort may not be necessary for qualified candidates without such characteristics.

Individuals of any race may be unaware of the opening or opportunities for a variety of reasons, and often for exactly the same reasons. Can people of any race not live in remote areas, be poor, not be connected, have a family history of anti-intellectualism, and so on?

It's called trying to level the playing field.

Only if you think in terms of groups and not individuals. Only if you group people by race and give special treatment based on that. Ie, only if you are racist about it.

 

[Metaphor]

It depends on the specific effect you're talking about. It depends on how distant in time it was. It depends on how effectively we're able to action anything. It depends on the cure not being worse than the disease.

so you don'tt have a plan, just excuses to let the effects stands.

I didn't say I didn't have a 'plan'. I said it depends.

But my plan is certainly not to simply discriminate against Asian and White students in law and medical school admissions for eternity, to everyone's detriment. That's no kind of 'plan' at all.

 

[laughing dog]

So? If you are making a special effort to find qualified candidates of a particular race, how is that not discrimination based on race?

I don't know how to answer that because I cannot understand why one would think otherwise. For example, suppose blacks do not read the magazines or journals where an institution tends to advertise openings. How is it discrimination to try to also advertise where blacks do read?

Individuals of any race may be unaware of the opening or opportunities for a variety of reasons, and often for exactly the same reasons. Can people of any race not live in remote areas, be poor, not be connected, have a family history of anti-intellectualism, and so on?

While that is a theoretical possibility, the question is it a actual possibility?

Only if you think in terms of groups and not individuals. Only if you group people by race and give special treatment based on that. Ie, only if you are racist about it.

Given the amount of posting on this topic, that response on persistent and willful ignorance of how AA can operate.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

so you don'tt have a plan, just excuses to let the effects stands.

I didn't say I didn't have a 'plan'. I said it depends.

But my plan is certainly not to simply discriminate against Asian and White students in law and medical school admissions for eternity, to everyone's detriment. That's no kind of 'plan' at all.

So you don't have a plan. This is interesting. You have a definite idea about what is wrong, but you have no idea about what would be right?

Just curious

Have you ever thought that maybe the problem isn't who gets the slots, but the number of slots?

 

[Metaphor]

I didn't say I didn't have a 'plan'. I said it depends.

But my plan is certainly not to simply discriminate against Asian and White students in law and medical school admissions for eternity, to everyone's detriment. That's no kind of 'plan' at all.

So you don't have a plan. This is interesting. You have a definite idea about what is wrong, but you have no idea about what would be right?

Just curious

Have you ever thought that maybe the problem isn't who gets the slots, but the number of slots?

Have you ever thought that there can be no 'plan' to undo the past?

You cannot turn back the hands of time; you can't unscramble the egg. The people who were slaves in the antebellum South are dead and gone; they cannot be made whole. It's quite religious thinking of you though to hope that there's some kind of restorative justice awaiting them. There isn't. They lived and died as property because some brutal people owned them and a brutal society endorsed the ownership. None of these people will see justice.

I agree that there ought to be no barrier to increasing the number of slots of medical and law students, as long as any person admitted is still likely to and capable of finishing the course. But that's not how medical schools work: there are, in fact, a limited number of slots, and that has always been the case.

But limited spots or no, that's still no reason to discriminate by race. Discriminating by race only perpetuates the harm caused by discriminating by race in the past. You cannot cure the disease with more of the disease.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

I don't know how to answer that because I cannot understand why one would think otherwise.

And I cannot understand how targeting recruitment racially is not discriminating based on race. Any effort to target people in group A is an effort not targeting people in group B, if the two groups are mutually exclusive.

Individuals of any race may be unaware of the opening or opportunities for a variety of reasons, and often for exactly the same reasons. Can people of any race not live in remote areas, be poor, not be connected, have a family history of anti-intellectualism, and so on?

While that is a theoretical possibility, the question is it a actual possibility?

Uh... Yes. Of course it is. Are you actually telling us it is a practical impossibility for people that you group in particular races to be poor, unconnected, live in remote areas or have a family history of anti-intellectualism?

Given the amount of posting on this topic, that response on persistent and willful ignorance of how AA can operate.

It is an accurate response to your text I quoted. Your adhom-like declarations of "willful ignorance" or "adult conversations", etc, that you so often like to make, only make you look weak.

 

[laughing dog]

And I cannot understand how targeting recruitment racially is not discriminating based on race. Any effort to target people in group A is an effort not targeting people in group B, if the two groups are mutually exclusive.

And if people in Group B do not require special targeting to be recruited?

Uh... Yes. Of course it is. Are you actually telling us it is a practical impossibility for people that you group in particular races to be poor, unconnected, live in remote areas or have a family history of anti-intellectualism?

I am saying that your theoretical example as stated has no real point. Perhaps if you restated it, it might.

It is an accurate response to your text I quoted.

I understand how someone who has no clue about the topic would think that.

Your adhom-like declarations of "willful ignorance" or "adult conversations", etc, that you so often like to make, only make you look weak.

You should look up what ad "ad hom" is, because you really seem to have no clue what you are talking about when it comes to AA.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

And if people in Group B do not require special targeting to be recruited?

Again, you are speaking of racial groups instead of individuals, which is in itself racist. There are individuals in Group B who will require just as much special targeting as individuals in group A, and possibly more. To exclude them based on their race is racist discrimination. Just because there are other people in group A who are rich and connected and don't require special tergeting does not change this.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

So you don't have a plan. This is interesting. You have a definite idea about what is wrong, but you have no idea about what would be right?

Just curious

Have you ever thought that maybe the problem isn't who gets the slots, but the number of slots?

Have you ever thought that there can be no 'plan' to undo the past?

You can't undo a crime, but that is hardly an excuse not to pursue criminals. If I unwittingly buy stolen goods, I still have to give them back. These things are true, because we can't undo the past, but we can attempt to make a wronged party whole. And we can try to dissuade future bad behavior

That being said, I didn't ask you about undoing the past, I asked you about increasing the slots, a present day problem in search of a present day solution.

You cannot turn back the hands of time; you can't unscramble the egg. The people who were slaves in the antebellum South are dead and gone; they cannot be made whole. It's quite religious thinking of you though to hope that there's some kind of restorative justice awaiting them. There isn't. They lived and died as property because some brutal people owned them and a brutal society endorsed the ownership. None of these people will see justice.

Show me where I said any of that. Stick with me in the present day. You can do it.

I agree that there ought to be no barrier to increasing the number of slots of medical and law students, as long as any person admitted is still likely to and capable of finishing the course.

Excuse me, why are you limiting the increase to Law and Med schools?

But that's not how medical schools work: there are, in fact, a limited number of slots, and that has always been the case.

The history of medical education says different. And what about law school? Now you have limited the discussion to just med school. Why the limitations?

But limited spots or no, that's still no reason to discriminate by race.

If there were space enough, race would not be an issue because no one would not go to school if they wanted to go. Oxygen pretty much covers this planet, so there is not movement to make sure that blacks are getting too much or getting oxygen they don't deserve.

Discriminating by race only perpetuates the harm caused by discriminating by race in the past. You cannot cure the disease with more of the disease.

So what is the answer?

Tell, if you and I live in the same neighborhood and a new family moves in, And i take them a potato pie to welcome them to neighborhood, and over the next few weeks, I take them around town, I introduce them to the local schools' principals, show them the best restaurants, where the movie theaters are, etc. I don't do this for you or any of the other people in the neighborhood who have been living there for years. Would you think me discriminating against you by not doing the same for you? is that the first thought you would have if you saw me doing these things?

 

[laughing dog]

And if people in Group B do not require special targeting to be recruited?

Again, you are speaking of racial groups instead of individuals, which is in itself racist.

It was your example not mine. But there is no reason to think the grouping must be racial.

There are individuals in Group B who will require just as much special targeting as individuals in group A, and possibly more.

That is non responsive to the question "if people in Group B do not require special targeting".

To exclude them based on their race is racist discrimination. Just because there are other people in group A who are rich and connected and don't require special tergeting does not change this.

There as no mention of group A's characteristics before. Stop making excuses and creating straw men and answer the simple question " if people in Group B do not require special targeting to be recruited"?

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Stop making excuses and creating straw men and answer the simple question " if people in Group B do not require special targeting to be recruited"?

If the entirety of Group B does not require special targeting? And if the entirety of Group A does need special targeting? Then you would have good reason to discriminate. And you would be doing so based on who needs special targeting, instead of on some misleading proxy.

 

[laughing dog]

Stop making excuses and creating straw men and answer the simple question " if people in Group B do not require special targeting to be recruited"?

If the entirety of Group B does not require special targeting? And if the entirety of Group A does need special targeting? Then you would have good reason to discriminate. And you would be doing so based on who needs special targeting, instead of on some misleading proxy.

What if the entirety of Group A does not need special targeting?

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

If the entirety of Group B does not require special targeting? And if the entirety of Group A does need special targeting? Then you would have good reason to discriminate. And you would be doing so based on who needs special targeting, instead of on some misleading proxy.

What if the entirety of Group A does not need special targeting?

Then you would be discriminating against individuals of Group B, by giving special targeting to people of Group A who don't need it, but not doing the same for those of Group B. Whether this is unfair or just wasted effort would depend on if that special targeting benefited those who don't really need it. Why not just dump the proxy and simply target those who need it? If poverty is the issue, why not address the poor, instead of a proxy for it?

 

[none]

Affirmative action is like speed limits, you do it to help society.

 

[Horatio Parker]

How many years of slavery/encoded segregation are we talking about? 350? Why not use that number as a guide.

I am not sure that the rate of recovery from racism would take as long to fix as the disease has been in place. I had a physical ailment that had been there for years. The fix took one day.

There was severe racism against the Irish in New York once. "No Irishmen need apply." There was severe racism against the Japanese (we put innocent Japanese Americans in a prison camp because they were of Japanese heritage. Michio Kaku was in one. One O'Reilly in New York is quite successful (even though I think he's nuts). We had slavery of kidnapped Africans once. Neil DeGrasse Tyson is possibly the best astrophysicist on the planet, consultant to presidents. Isaac Asimov, of Jewish heritage, was a prolific writer.

Not sure it should take 350 years.

I was attempting to convey a sense of the magnitude of the injustice.

Since you seem to think it comparable to relatively trivial episodes(and btw Japanese internment victims received an apology and reparations), it was apparently a failure.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Affirmative action is like speed limits, you do it to help society.

It would be like speed limits, if speed limits only applied to blue cars.

 

[none]

Affirmative action is like speed limits, you do it to help society.

It would be like speed limits, if speed limits only applied to blue cars.

yeah, the blue cars, employers. I see what you did there... cute.
name the other cars...

 

[Metaphor]

You can't undo a crime, but that is hardly an excuse not to pursue criminals.

The criminals are dead, too.

If I unwittingly buy stolen goods, I still have to give them back.

That's true. Except that it's a false analogy. I don't have stolen goods. I have less and inferior quality goods because of what some people did in the past.

That being said, I didn't ask you about undoing the past, I asked you about increasing the slots, a present day problem in search of a present day solution.

Not everyone can be a doctor. I couldn't be, for example. It's really hard and you have to be really smart. You can increase the slots but that has nothing to do with being racially discriminatory about your admissions policy.

Excuse me, why are you limiting the increase to Law and Med schools?

I'm not doing anything like that: but that appears to me where the most racial discrimination is.

The history of medical education says different. And what about law school? Now you have limited the discussion to just med school. Why the limitations?

The history of medical education did not allow all and sundry in. Not everyone can be a doctor. I want the best, the smartest, to be doctors. I don't want 'C' students to be doctors.

I don't want George W. Bush to be a doctor. Can you imagine what it would be like to have him, hovering above you, ready to make the cut?

Tell, if you and I live in the same neighborhood and a new family moves in, And i take them a potato pie to welcome them to neighborhood, and over the next few weeks, I take them around town, I introduce them to the local schools' principals, show them the best restaurants, where the movie theaters are, etc. I don't do this for you or any of the other people in the neighborhood who have been living there for years. Would you think me discriminating against you by not doing the same for you? is that the first thought you would have if you saw me doing these things?

And when the Asian family moved in, and you said 'fuck them, they are already well represented in the neighbourhood' what would you expect me to say about that?

 

[none]

^Seriously tell us what you really think.
there appears to be a "white push" to the top in commerce, and we have affirmative action in place.
are you saying the "white push" is acceptable to the point where you will sell out just like mentioned in AthenaAwakened's other thread about whiteness..

 

[AthenaAwakened]

The criminals are dead, too.

If I unwittingly buy stolen goods, I still have to give them back.

That's true. Except that it's a false analogy. I don't have stolen goods. I have less and inferior quality goods because of what some people did in the past.

That being said, I didn't ask you about undoing the past, I asked you about increasing the slots, a present day problem in search of a present day solution.

Not everyone can be a doctor. I couldn't be, for example. It's really hard and you have to be really smart. You can increase the slots but that has nothing to do with being racially discriminatory about your admissions policy.

Excuse me, why are you limiting the increase to Law and Med schools?

I'm not doing anything like that: but that appears to me where the most racial discrimination is.

The history of medical education says different. And what about law school? Now you have limited the discussion to just med school. Why the limitations?

The history of medical education did not allow all and sundry in. Not everyone can be a doctor. I want the best, the smartest, to be doctors. I don't want 'C' students to be doctors.

I don't want George W. Bush to be a doctor. Can you imagine what it would be like to have him, hovering above you, ready to make the cut?

Tell, if you and I live in the same neighborhood and a new family moves in, And i take them a potato pie to welcome them to neighborhood, and over the next few weeks, I take them around town, I introduce them to the local schools' principals, show them the best restaurants, where the movie theaters are, etc. I don't do this for you or any of the other people in the neighborhood who have been living there for years. Would you think me discriminating against you by not doing the same for you? is that the first thought you would have if you saw me doing these things?

And when the Asian family moved in, and you said 'fuck them, they are already well represented in the neighbourhood' what would you expect me to say about that?

Damn, you run from the actual questions asked faster than a wolf going after a pork chop. I didn't racialize the family, so all you know they are Asians, or Panamanians. If you don't have answer just say so. If you have never thought about things in a certain way, just say so.