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So 20 years from now...

masterpeastheater

Junior Member
Joined
Sep 19, 2010
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eastern u.s.
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agnostic leaning atheist
Will liberals at sites like this and democraticunderground still be saying if the Dems just do x and y the US will enter a new progressive or at least sane era? I just don't see anything turning around. The repubs own the courts and they love them some voter suppression. What will it take to get a popular uprising in the US or whatever it takes to unseat the right and the oligarchy behind it? Between climate change and various economic time bombs there is no time!
 
Nothing. People can’t get worked up enough to spend an hour of their time every two years to go out and vote. They’re not going to get passion and energy all of a sudden to put together some sort of uprising.
 
Seems like the US is due for major strife, especially if the Democrats do not win a majority in the House. If that happens, then a lot of Democrats will come to believe that the Republicans stole that election -- and the Republicans have been doing a *lot* to make it seem like that.

More broadly, US history moves in cycles. Historians Arthurs Schlesinger I and II have proposed this cycle: US History Cycles - Liberal vs. Conservative The US alternates between periods of reform and periods of stagnation -- improving status quo and maintaining status quo -- expanding of democracy and containment of democracy -- liberal and conservative -- public-purpose and private-interest. These periods usually last between around 10 and 20 years, but the first Gilded Age lasted 30 years and the current Gilded Age has now lasted 40 years with no clear sign of an end.

The Clinton and Obama presidencies, and the Wisconsin Revolt and the Occupy Movement, all seemed to me to be signs of its ending, but they failed to end it. Bill Clinton and Barack Obama were very cowardly, even as they were attacked as left-wing ogres by the Right. The Wisconsin Revolution and the Occupy Movement both failed.


This cyclicity is driven by the actions of its participants. Each kind of phase is self-limiting. Liberal phases involve a lot of effort that can be hard to sustain, especially if they are perceived to go too far or else perceived to have succeeded. Conservative phases accumulate problems that society's elites either refuse to accept the existence of or else are unwilling to do anything to solve.

We are currently in a phase of accumulating problems with not much being done to correct them. For instance, student loans and healthcare have been getting grotesquely expensive with not much being done to keep them from getting so expensive. Obamacare was a very limited sort of reform, and in years past, as Heritagecare, Chaffeecare, and Romneycare, it did not attract much attention. But when Obama pushed it, all hell broke loose from the Right. It turned into an intolerable monstrosity.
 
So 20 years from now...

Let's see, twenty years from now. Well another six years of the Donald as president then eight years with Ivanka, that will get us to fourteen years from now. Then eight years with Donald Jr. as president will get us to twenty-two years from now. Barron still won't be old enough to run so he will have to wait through eight years with Eric as president before we can have a President Barron.
 
Taking away my comfortable lifestyle might do it. You can even get away with that for awhile as long as I have easy access to cheap drugs and alcohol.

Sandy Hook is not just my standard for political apathy but the apathy of a nation. If we couldn’t stand up and demand change after such shocking and vile wickedness, there is no cause great enough.

I think only sustained and increasing levels of discomfort will motivate us. Comfort is the one thing most of us were born into and would be shaken to our core if it were taken away.
 
I'll be more comprehensive about eligibility for the Presidency.
  • Donald Trump, Jr.: now
  • Ivanka Trump: now
  • Eric Trump: 2020
  • Tiffany Trump: 2028
  • Barron Trump: 2044
  • Malia and Sasha Obama: 2036
  • Chelsea Clinton: now
  • Barbara Bush II and Jenna Bush Hager: now
  • Jeb Bush: now
  • George P. Bush, Noelle Bush, and Jebby Bush: now
  • Neil Bush: now
 
So, you think we'll still be around in 20 years? That's awfully optimistic. I doubt I'll be here in 20 years. If I am I'll be 89 and likely suffering from dementia, as the incidence of dementia rises to nearly 50% after age 85, and I doubt we'll have a cure by then. In fact, I'm not so sure we'll have a country by then. So, please don't make me think about what might happen in 20 years. If' I'm lucky, I'll be dead in 20 years. Death relieves all suffering. Keep a happy thought.
 
Taking away my comfortable lifestyle might do it. You can even get away with that for awhile as long as I have easy access to cheap drugs and alcohol.

Sandy Hook is not just my standard for political apathy but the apathy of a nation. If we couldn’t stand up and demand change after such shocking and vile wickedness, there is no cause great enough.

I think only sustained and increasing levels of discomfort will motivate us. Comfort is the one thing most of us were born into and would be shaken to our core if it were taken away.

I'm not sure I follow that. Are you saying that, for some political ideology, you would sacrifice comfort and affluence, the things that everyone in the world wants and strives for? Actually those are the things that all the political ideologies I am aware of promise (but few deliver) in order to attract adherents.
 
Will liberals at sites like this and democraticunderground still be saying if the Dems just do x and y the US will enter a new progressive or at least sane era? I just don't see anything turning around. The repubs own the courts and they love them some voter suppression. What will it take to get a popular uprising in the US or whatever it takes to unseat the right and the oligarchy behind it? Between climate change and various economic time bombs there is no time!

Yes, I think that we are in a very dangerous time. We're in a time when a minority party (largest party in terms of numbers are independents, democrats, then republicans) controls every single level of government both federal and most state governments. You can't have a so-called democracy if the majority is not represented in the government.
 
Will liberals at sites like this and democraticunderground still be saying if the Dems just do x and y the US will enter a new progressive or at least sane era? I just don't see anything turning around. The repubs own the courts and they love them some voter suppression. What will it take to get a popular uprising in the US or whatever it takes to unseat the right and the oligarchy behind it? Between climate change and various economic time bombs there is no time!

Yes, I think that we are in a very dangerous time. We're in a time when a minority party (largest party in terms of numbers are independents, democrats, then republicans) controls every single level of government both federal and most state governments. You can't have a so-called democracy if the majority is not represented in the government.

Yes you can. You just need to have the majority not bother to do anything about it.
 
Will liberals at sites like this and democraticunderground still be saying if the Dems just do x and y the US will enter a new progressive or at least sane era? I just don't see anything turning around. The repubs own the courts and they love them some voter suppression. What will it take to get a popular uprising in the US or whatever it takes to unseat the right and the oligarchy behind it? Between climate change and various economic time bombs there is no time!

It will take liberals. Actual liberals, advocating and fighting for liberty, free speech, democracy and free thought, and against oligarchy, authoritarianism, and censorship. The Democrats and Republicans are both bought and pushing the wrong way. Perhaps a third party could rise up and do so. There are plenty of people seeing the light so to speak. Trump rising to power could mean the beginning of the end, or it could be a wake up call. Let's not pretend things haven't been sliding in this direction for decades.
 
Will liberals at sites like this and democraticunderground still be saying if the Dems just do x and y the US will enter a new progressive or at least sane era? I just don't see anything turning around. The repubs own the courts and they love them some voter suppression. What will it take to get a popular uprising in the US or whatever it takes to unseat the right and the oligarchy behind it? Between climate change and various economic time bombs there is no time!

The only thing that will create the demographic shift necessary to change things is a serious economic downturn while the Republicans are in power. It might might happen if Trump is re-elected. If it happens after 2020, Trump better be in power.
 
Will liberals at sites like this and democraticunderground still be saying if the Dems just do x and y the US will enter a new progressive or at least sane era? I just don't see anything turning around. The repubs own the courts and they love them some voter suppression. What will it take to get a popular uprising in the US or whatever it takes to unseat the right and the oligarchy behind it? Between climate change and various economic time bombs there is no time!

It will take liberals. Actual liberals, advocating and fighting for liberty, free speech, democracy and free thought, and against oligarchy, authoritarianism, and censorship. The Democrats and Republicans are both bought and pushing the wrong way. Perhaps a third party could rise up and do so. There are plenty of people seeing the light so to speak. Trump rising to power could mean the beginning of the end, or it could be a wake up call. Let's not pretend things haven't been sliding in this direction for decades.

I see. So you think that the dems could reverse their losing by appealing to less voters? Cede the middle to the republicans? Trump would love this!!
 
Will liberals at sites like this and democraticunderground still be saying if the Dems just do x and y the US will enter a new progressive or at least sane era? I just don't see anything turning around. The repubs own the courts and they love them some voter suppression. What will it take to get a popular uprising in the US or whatever it takes to unseat the right and the oligarchy behind it? Between climate change and various economic time bombs there is no time!

It will take liberals. Actual liberals, advocating and fighting for liberty, free speech, democracy and free thought, and against oligarchy, authoritarianism, and censorship. The Democrats and Republicans are both bought and pushing the wrong way. Perhaps a third party could rise up and do so. There are plenty of people seeing the light so to speak. Trump rising to power could mean the beginning of the end, or it could be a wake up call. Let's not pretend things haven't been sliding in this direction for decades.

I see. So you think that the dems could reverse their losing by appealing to less voters? Cede the middle to the republicans? Trump would love this!!

No, I'm saying it would appeal to more voters. As has been noted in other threads, the largest group in the last election was those who didn't vote. What America needs is a new New Deal. The people are obviously thirsty for populism because politics has been so corrupt, insider, and bought for so long. We are the 99%. There is an opportunity in that to better the country rather than worsening it (Trump). But, it is your country, so its up to you.

Moreover, if the Democrats sink to Trump's level to defeat Trump, what makes you think they won't stay at that level? Your politics has been slowly circling the partisan anti-liberal drain for a long time. Trump is just it speeding up as the final swishes empty out the drain. China waits in the wings to take over after your collapse. Canada needs to start building that border wall. Its a big border and will take a long time to finish. We need it done before your country is 3rd world. It will also take a while to establish enough trade to replace what we've had going with the US.
 
Ages of Discord -- American History's Big Cycle -- by Peter Turchin
Peter Turchin: US-History Cycles
Peter Turchin and others had previously done work on history cyclicity in preindustrial societies, finding lots of evidence of cycles over the centuries. These cycles, they conclude, are driven by structural and demographic factors.

The cycles have integrative and disintegrative phases, rising and falling ones. Each phase is self-limiting, and turns into the other phase. Each cycle lasts roughly 300 - 400 years.

The integrative phase starts with both commoners and elites having relatively small populations, and there is plenty of agricultural production to go around. Commoners grow until they start to run out of arable land, and elites also grow -- and grow faster. This drives down the standard of living of the commoners and leads into the disintegrative phase.

In the disintegrative phase, elites fight each other over top positions, because such positions do not multiply along with the elites. They do so until enough of them are either killed or exiled or demoted. The commoner population also declines from the fighting, and sometimes also from plagues, and when the fighting dies down, an integrative phase may start.

Civil wars are usually not continuous but episodic, following a two-generation or fathers-and-sons cycle. One generation fights, and then its successor generation does not wish the relive the experience and does not fight. For the successor's successor, the original strife is not something that they directly experienced, so they feel less inhibited about fighting.

In an integrative phase, a nation may gain territory, while in a disintegrative phase, a nation may lose territory -- sometimes all of it, thus being conquered.


It seems to fit ancient Rome, medieval and early modern Britain, France, and Russia, and Imperial China. But does it fit industrialized societies?
 
Will liberals at sites like this and democraticunderground still be saying if the Dems just do x and y the US will enter a new progressive or at least sane era? I just don't see anything turning around. The repubs own the courts and they love them some voter suppression. What will it take to get a popular uprising in the US or whatever it takes to unseat the right and the oligarchy behind it? Between climate change and various economic time bombs there is no time!

It will take liberals. Actual liberals, advocating and fighting for liberty, free speech, democracy and free thought, and against oligarchy, authoritarianism, and censorship. The Democrats and Republicans are both bought and pushing the wrong way. Perhaps a third party could rise up and do so. There are plenty of people seeing the light so to speak. Trump rising to power could mean the beginning of the end, or it could be a wake up call. Let's not pretend things haven't been sliding in this direction for decades.

I see. So you think that the dems could reverse their losing by appealing to less voters? Cede the middle to the republicans? Trump would love this!!

The Dems already ceded the middle. Trump's election victory is an example that.
 
For industrialized societies, one has much higher-quality data, even if its time reach is not nearly as great. The United States is a good example, since it is an early industrializer, and since it has not had much outside threat over most of its existence.

Even with such good data, it is sometimes necessary to use proxies for some variables, where these proxies are something readily quantifiable. For patriotism or identification with the nation, PT use two of them: who states' counties are named after, and visits to national monuments. Before the Revolutionary War, they were usually named for notable Britons, while between that war and around 1840, they were half-half national and local notables. Afterward, it was about 3 or 4 local notables for each national one. But visits to national monuments continue to the present. Monuments like George Washington's estate, the Lincoln Memorial, and the Statue of Liberty.

Here is what he uses:
  • Population Well-Being
    • Employment Prospects -- fraction of people who are foreign-born (-)
    • Relative Wage -- median wage / GDP per capita
    • Health -- physical height (stature)
    • Health -- longevity
    • Family -- age of first marriage (-)
  • Elite Overproduction (-)
    • Top Wealth - largest assets / median wage
    • Education Cost - Yale-University tuition / median wage
    • Elite Fragmentation - party polarization in Congress
  • Political Violence (assassination, lynching, terrorism, riots) (-)
A (-) means a trend in the opposite direction. About that last one,
  • Assassination: one on one
  • Lynching: many on one (or a small group)
  • Terrorism: one (or a small group) on many
  • Riots: many on many
Some of the data PT detrended by subtracting out overall trends, and PT then normalized all these data for comparison.
 
I see. So you think that the dems could reverse their losing by appealing to less voters? Cede the middle to the republicans? Trump would love this!!

The Dems already ceded the middle. .
True. The middle was once the solid base of the Democrat party. The blue collar working middle class like auto workers, coal miners, steel workers, etc. etc. were solid Democrat and were the block that kept Democrats in control of Congress for something like sixty years. The Democrat party was their main voice, representatives, and loyal support until recent history. Now the Democrat leadership see them as gun toting, bible thumping, low class, losers or "deplorables" according to Hillary. For some reason Democrats decided to replace them with immigrants, Silicon Valley, and LGBQT. Trump saw the hole and listened to the concerns of the old Democrat base of blue collar workers which gave him West Virginia, Pennsylvania, Michigan, etc.
 
I see. So you think that the dems could reverse their losing by appealing to less voters? Cede the middle to the republicans? Trump would love this!!

The Dems already ceded the middle. .
True. The middle was once the solid base of the Democrat party. The blue collar working middle class like auto workers, coal miners, steel workers, etc. etc. were solid Democrat and were the block that kept Democrats in control of Congress for something like sixty years. The Democrat party was their main voice, representatives, and loyal support until recent history. Now the Democrat leadership see them as gun toting, bible thumping, low class, losers or "deplorables" according to Hillary. For some reason Democrats decided to replace them with immigrants, Silicon Valley, and LGBQT. Trump saw the hole and listened to the concerns of the old Democrat base of blue collar workers which gave him West Virginia, Pennsylvania, Michigan, etc.

I agree that Trump did a good job at getting the white middle and working class. But question: why is that HRC gets hammered for calling Trump supports deplorables - one time. She did it one time. I'm sorry that the big meanie hurt some white people's feelings. I hear Trump insulting Indians every single day with his "Pocahontas" crap. He insults women, disabled people, Mexicans, journalists, and etc every single day. Why the double standard?
 
True. The middle was once the solid base of the Democrat party. The blue collar working middle class like auto workers, coal miners, steel workers, etc. etc. were solid Democrat and were the block that kept Democrats in control of Congress for something like sixty years. The Democrat party was their main voice, representatives, and loyal support until recent history. Now the Democrat leadership see them as gun toting, bible thumping, low class, losers or "deplorables" according to Hillary. For some reason Democrats decided to replace them with immigrants, Silicon Valley, and LGBQT. Trump saw the hole and listened to the concerns of the old Democrat base of blue collar workers which gave him West Virginia, Pennsylvania, Michigan, etc.

I agree that Trump did a good job at getting the white middle and working class. But question: why is that HRC gets hammered for calling Trump supports deplorables - one time. She did it one time. I'm sorry that the big meanie hurt some white people's feelings. I hear Trump insulting Indians every single day with his "Pocahontas" crap. He insults women, disabled people, Mexicans, journalists, and etc every single day. Why the double standard?
It started with your questioning Democrats reversing the loosing by ceding the middle class. They already had and my post was a short story of how they had done it. Obama dismissed them with his description of them clutching their guns and Bibles, telling them that this is the new reality that their jobs are gone and they are not coming back so just get over it. Increasing regulatory pressure which closed several steel mills and coal mines. etc. etc. I'm sure you know all the loss of manufacturing and industry, and loss of blue collar jobs. A real politically dumb speech was Hillary in Pennsylvania (a major coal producing state) boasting that she would shut down the coal industry (which I think was a major reason she lost the state). There was nothing but dismissal of the concerns of blue collar workers during the campaign. It was just that her "deplorables" so perfectly seemed to sum up the Democrat party's leadership's image of blue collar workers. In effect, to answer your original question the Democrat leadership has already ceded the middle class to the Republican party. But they now have Hollywood, Wall Street, and Silicon Valley.
 
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