Shooting reported at Paris magazine Charlie Hebdo

[Barbarian]

I find it difficult to believe that the brothers' underlying motivation was their religion given that the police officer they murdered was also a Muslim.

I don't see any contradiction there. They rather obviously did not stop to ask him about his religion, and ISIS kills Muslims all the time anyway for being on the wrong side, so why would they not kill this guy merely for being a policeman?

The difficulty with these kinds of discussions is the lingering suspicion that by assigning the blame to Islam, we want to assign it to all Muslims, and unfortunately there are rather simple people who do exactly that. I have a very different outlook, however; I insist Islam is to blame because the terrorists act upon a particular interpretation of it. That the peaceful Muslims also act upon some (other) interpretation of Islam simply means that both being a headcutting maniac and being starkly opposed to headcutting maniacs are Islamic approaches. The idea that only one of them can be Islamic rests upon the insidious - and implicitly held - idea that a major religion obviously must be logically consistent. That is not the case. Saint Francis and the inquisitors of Goa were both Christians.

 

[rednoise]

I think the religion is simply the surface issue here. There are plenty of Muslims or Islamists who do not go around murdering people. I find it hard to believe that Islam alone motivated these assassins.

. ^^^ that.

This is different from what you were saying, though. And you seem to be disregarding the fact that there is intra-religious violence all the time. Most victims of Muslim terrorists are other Muslims. Part of this reason is that there are a lot of radical Islamists who simply do not recognize the other part of their religion as Muslims.

But, of course, there are other issues. ISIS gained a foothole because Karzai was playing favorites with Shiites, leaving Sunnis out in the cold. That left an opportune situation for ISIS -- as Sunnis -- to go in there and take over, because of the neglect and nepotism of Karzai. In this case, specifically, it's doubtful that they stopped and asked this police officer whether he was Sunni or Shia. They probably viewed him as a kind of collaborator (being a member of the French state), which carries a death sentence in these circles.

 

[Warpoet]

Perhaps their version of Islam did?

What "version" would that be? And why isn't everyone who subscribes to it shooting journalists? Or is their "version" so unique to them that it's obviously a product of their own life experience and not scripture alone?

Seriously, why do people have such a hard time coming to terms with the fact that human beings are enormously complex and that no one factor is likely to singlehandedly produce an outcome like this?

No, it's not reasonable to claim that Islam has "nothing to do" with people storming a newspaper office known for offending Muslims and shooting people while shouting takbir. But it's no less irresponsible to zero in on religion alone and pretend that things like France's difficult relationship with its Muslim population, or the larger issue of Muslim integration into Europe, or of Western policy towards Muslim countries has "nothing to do" with incidents like this. People who do either detract from the discussion.

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But, of course, there are other issues. ISIS gained a foothole because Karzai was playing favorites with Shiites, leaving Sunnis out in the cold. That left an opportune situation for ISIS -- as Sunnis -- to go in there and take over, because of the neglect and nepotism of Karzai. In this case, specifically, it's doubtful that they stopped and asked this police officer whether he was Sunni or Shia. They probably viewed him as a kind of collaborator (being a member of the French state), which carries a death sentence in these circles.

I am assuming that you are confusing Hamid Karzai with Nouri al-Maliki.

 

[rednoise]

I am assuming that you are confusing Hamid Karzai with Nouri al-Maliki.

Yeah, I was.

 

[Sphincterboy]

I think the religion is simply the surface issue here. There are plenty of Muslims or Islamists who do not go around murdering people. I find it hard to believe that Islam alone motivated these assassins.

Although this sounds rather sensible, views such as this can only be held by those who have not spent any significant time at an Islamic forum such as http://www.islamicboard.com/

 

[rednoise]

I think the religion is simply the surface issue here. There are plenty of Muslims or Islamists who do not go around murdering people. I find it hard to believe that Islam alone motivated these assassins.

Although this sounds rather sensible, views such as this can only be held by those who have not spent any significant time at an Islamic forum such as http://www.islamicboard.com/

Does Internet forums "IslamicBoard" represent the views of all Muslims, or even all Islamists?

 

[Sphincterboy]

Does Internet forums "IslamicBoard" represent the views of all Muslims, or even all Islamists?

Why don't you go there, or the many others like it, and report back about how many of the thousands of contributors who label themselves as 'Islamic' are expressing condemnatory comments regarding the Paris shootings?

 

[TSwizzle]

I think the religion is simply the surface issue here. There are plenty of Muslims or Islamists who do not go around murdering people. I find it hard to believe that Islam alone motivated these assassins.

You're overthinking it. Charlie insulted teh prophet, Charlie had to pay.

 

[Warpoet]

Why don't you go there, or the many others like it, and report back about how many of the thousands of contributors who label themselves as 'Islamic' are expressing condemnatory comments regarding the Paris shootings?

Yes, and while we're at it let's go to Rapture Ready and get an accurate reading on how all of the world's Christians think about homosexuality and abortion.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Why don't you go there, or the many others like it, and report back about how many of the thousands of contributors who label themselves as 'Islamic' are expressing condemnatory comments regarding the Paris shootings?

Yes, and while we're at it let's go to Rapture Ready and get an accurate reading on how all of the world's Christians think about homosexuality and abortion.

Exactly. Go to some Christian boards and they want to nuke all Muslims. I know Christians who want to see all Muslims dead. My take is that idiots like them obviously don't have a single Muslim acquaintance.

 

[barbos]

Most muslims are normal people but if you are crazy murderous scam you are especially welcome by islam which provides very easy solutions to every problem including medical ones which most potential extremists have. It could give purpose and meaning to life to every scambag out there, they don't even have to change their behavior much.
Islam is just much better at recruiting them than the rest of religions.

 

[arkirk]

Yes, and while we're at it let's go to Rapture Ready and get an accurate reading on how all of the world's Christians think about homosexuality and abortion.

Exactly. Go to some Christian boards and they want to nuke all Muslims. I know Christians who want to see all Muslims dead. My take is that idiots like them obviously don't have a single Muslim acquaintance.

The problem with it all is that the monotheistic religions are altogether too vulnerable to fundamentalist interpretation. When the Hebrews swooped down on the Amalekites and killed them, it was under the guidance of Moses. The problem is that these religions are open to a literal interpretation and when a person has diminished capacity due to perhaps a lot of discrimination in his or her life; when that same person has severe educational limitations too; when that person is deeply in need and suffering: They seek relief from that suffering and there the Koran or the Bible is ready to give them succor and direction...also to explain their irrational and suicidal actions. These books paint a ruler of the universe that is not averse to accepting violent solutions and these fairy stories have heaps of evidence that God is vindictive and promotes punishment of sinners. These old stories make it clear...even in the story of Jesus...what an ugly story that is...that god glories in and requires these atrocious killings. The less educated you are, the more apt you are to accept these stories as true indications of what an invisible god wants. This becomes easier for one to accept if one is also treated as a reject in the society in which he lives.

Now along comes this magazine with its satire of your god and the only glimmer of a path to glory available to you

 

[Underseer]

Yes, and while we're at it let's go to Rapture Ready and get an accurate reading on how all of the world's Christians think about homosexuality and abortion.

Exactly. Go to some Christian boards and they want to nuke all Muslims. I know Christians who want to see all Muslims dead. My take is that idiots like them obviously don't have a single Muslim acquaintance.

How do you know they don't know any Muslims?

They could be just as immoral and irrational as many Muslims.

 

[Bomb#20]

The crime was condemned by Muslims all over the world so there is no doubt it is not an Islamic belief.

You seem to operate under the false assumption that if P is an Islamic belief then not-P cannot be an Islamic belief. Islam, like all Abrahamic beliefs, suffers from a severe case of ex falso quodlibet (on account of its axioms being inconsistent once they include omnipotence). All people believing that Allah is real and the Quran is his word are Muslims, and whatever they deduce from those beliefs by valid reasoning will be an Islamic belief, whether it contradicts other Islamic beliefs or not. Or are you under the illusion that the terrorists did not infer the justification for their acts from Islam?

It would be more important to know why do you feel so strongly that Islam needs to be acquitted this way?

It's curious, yes. Why is it okay to blame Christianity for turning Christians into sheep, but not okay to blame Islam for turning Muslims into people who approve of killing blasphemers? The obvious explanation is that western civilization is required by his ideology to be the root of all oppression. But perhaps he can produce an alternate explanation for the difference in his approaches to the two religions?

 

[Underseer]

You seem to operate under the false assumption that if P is an Islamic belief then not-P cannot be an Islamic belief. Islam, like all Abrahamic beliefs, suffers from a severe case of ex falso quodlibet (on account of its axioms being inconsistent once they include omnipotence). All people believing that Allah is real and the Quran is his word are Muslims, and whatever they deduce from those beliefs by valid reasoning will be an Islamic belief, whether it contradicts other Islamic beliefs or not. Or are you under the illusion that the terrorists did not infer the justification for their acts from Islam?

It would be more important to know why do you feel so strongly that Islam needs to be acquitted this way?

It's curious, yes. Why is it okay to blame Christianity for turning Christians into sheep, but not okay to blame Islam for turning Muslims into people who approve of killing blasphemers? The obvious explanation is that western civilization is required by his ideology to be the root of all oppression. But perhaps he can produce an alternate explanation for the difference in his approaches to the two religions?

Where did you get the idea that we think Christianity is wrong but Islam isn't?

Do we need to show you the dictionary definition of "atheist" again?

 

[barbos]

Exactly. Go to some Christian boards and they want to nuke all Muslims. I know Christians who want to see all Muslims dead. My take is that idiots like them obviously don't have a single Muslim acquaintance.

The problem with it all is that the monotheistic religions are altogether too vulnerable to fundamentalist interpretation. When the Hebrews swooped down on the Amalekites and killed them, it was under the guidance of Moses. The problem is that these religions are open to a literal interpretation and when a person has diminished capacity due to perhaps a lot of discrimination in his or her life; when that same person has severe educational limitations too; when that person is deeply in need and suffering: They seek relief from that suffering and there the Koran or the Bible is ready to give them succor and direction...also to explain their irrational and suicidal actions. These books paint a ruler of the universe that is not averse to accepting violent solutions and these fairy stories have heaps of evidence that God is vindictive and promotes punishment of sinners. These old stories make it clear...even in the story of Jesus...what an ugly story that is...that god glories in and requires these atrocious killings. The less educated you are, the more apt you are to accept these stories as true indications of what an invisible god wants. This becomes easier for one to accept if one is also treated as a reject in the society in which he lives.

Now along comes this magazine with its satire of your god and the only glimmer of a path to glory available to you

Yes.

 

[Sphincterboy]

Why don't you go there, or the many others like it, and report back about how many of the thousands of contributors who label themselves as 'Islamic' are expressing condemnatory comments regarding the Paris shootings?

Yes, and while we're at it let's go to Rapture Ready and get an accurate reading on how all of the world's Christians think about homosexuality and abortion.

Well, that is rather the point. When it comes to insults to the prophet, and acceptable responses, 'moderate' Muslims will respond, universally, with something that would not be out of place in a rabid fundamentalist site of any religious nature. About the most mild statement you will get is something along the lines of "if you play with fire, expect to get burned"

 

[RavenSky]

And yet we have two Muslims - one a police officer and the other an employee of the grocery store - who both risked their lives trying to stop the terrorists and save the "infidels". Those are just the ones we know about so far.

 

[Bomb#20]

It's curious, yes. Why is it okay to blame Christianity for turning Christians into sheep, but not okay to blame Islam for turning Muslims into people who approve of killing blasphemers? The obvious explanation is that western civilization is required by his ideology to be the root of all oppression. But perhaps he can produce an alternate explanation for the difference in his approaches to the two religions?

Where did you get the idea that we think Christianity is wrong but Islam isn't?

Do we need to show you the dictionary definition of "atheist" again?

Where did you get the idea that it's okay for you to put words in other people's mouths? I'm talking about untermensche and his individual consistency or lack thereof in apportioning blame to religions. Where did you get the idea that I was talking either about the wrongness of religions, or about you and whomever else you were calling "we"? Have you too blamed Christianity for its effects on believers but objected to likewise blaming Islam?

 

[laughing dog]

I think the religion is simply the surface issue here. There are plenty of Muslims or Islamists who do not go around murdering people. I find it hard to believe that Islam alone motivated these assassins.

Although this sounds rather sensible, views such as this can only be held by those who have not spent any significant time at an Islamic forum such as http://www.islamicboard.com/

I know a number of Muslims who do not go around murdering people, threatening people who insult Islam or condoning violence, so I don't need to visit any forum to understand your observation is a triumph of ignorance over reality.