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“Revolution in Thought: A new look at determinism and free will"

Pg has probably been reciting this stuff since she was a kid.

It is like pointing out inconsistencies in the bible to someone raised Evangelical or Jehovah Witness.

Or like making the Pope Muslim.
 
Pg, we have no way to verify your claims. Hence no trust,

"Trust, but verify" is a Russian proverb popularized by U.S. President Ronald Reagan during nuclear disarmament negotiations with the Soviet Union in the 1980s. It means establishing trust in a partnership while maintaining accountability through independent verification. This approach, often used in leadership and security, builds stronger, more transparent relationships.
 
Pg has probably been reciting this stuff since she was a kid.

It is like pointing out inconsistencies in the bible to someone raised Evangelical or Jehovah Witness.

Or like making the Pope Muslim.
You are so off the beaten track, Steve, I have nothing more to say to you. I was not raised reciting stuff just because he was my father. How many more times do I have to repeat this?
 
You'll have to trust me on this.
Literally nobody has to trust anyone on anything. Doing so is a good way to get scammed, or brainwashed, or both.
That is true, but I am not a newcomer here. I would hope, at the very least, you would give him the benefit of the doubt, but no, you won't do that. You have already made up your mind. How is that being an objective scientist? You have assumed he was wrong from first hearing of his claim. That biases you which then taints his entire proof.
 
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Pg

There is no doubt, so there can be no benefit of the doubt. We all looked at it and refuted it with established science.

It is up to you to back your claims with observations and data others can check for themselves. All you offer is to say he observed it.

If you can't get past our objections the odds of getting the attention of specialists in physics, biology, and neuroscience is slim to none.

There is no trust involved. Either others can repeat experiment and observations and see what is claimed or they can not.

Hundreds of thousands of posts on different forums can not change that fact.
 
Pg

There is no doubt, so there can be no benefit of the doubt. We all looked at it and refuted it with established science.

It is up to you to back your claims with observations and data others can check for themselves. All you offer is to say he observed it.
How can a person check for themselves? The examples you gave cannot be disputed, but how can one see for themselves how the direction one's brain/eyes work? How did science make the claim of afferent vision other than a logical assumption?
If you can't get past our objections the odds of getting the attention of specialists in physics, biology, and neuroscience is slim to none.
He knew what he was up against. That didn't stop him. What can I say? :confused2:
There is no trust involved. Either others can repeat experiment and observations and see what is claimed or they can not.

Hundreds of thousands of posts on different forums can not change that fact.
There have been cases where someone was rejected, and they turned out to be right. All I can do is keep his work in print and hope that one day his knowledge will be confirmed valid and sound.
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If you recall, in the 19th century Gregor Mendel made a discovery in the field of heredity. He was unable to present his findings because there was an established theory already being taught as true. The professors he contacted had their own theories, and they concluded that it was impossible for him to have discovered anything new since he was nothing in comparison to them. If these professors had taken the time to scientifically investigate his claims, they would have found that he was correct and they were mistaken, but this would have made them the laughingstock of the entire student body. In the end it was Nageli, the leading authority of his time, whose pride refused to let him investigate Mendel whom he judged a semi-amateur because he regarded as impossible the very core of Mendel’s discovery. He was wrong, as history recorded, and though Mendel was compelled to receive posthumous recognition for the law he discovered, he is now considered the father of modern genetics and Nageli, a footnote. History has recorded innumerable stories of a like nature, but is it necessary that the pattern continue? Isn’t it obvious that if such a discovery exists, and it does, and you deny the possibility, you are setting yourselves up as infallible gods among men, just as our intellectual ancestors did when they prematurely rejected the discovery of Gregor Mendel? Can’t you be the ones to confirm the discovery, or must it be others long after we are dead?
 
That is the point. Anybody can claim anything.

If Lessans 'saw' something but could not describe it in such a way as others could also have the same experience and reach the same conclusipn then it is more like a religious experience.


Art, music, poetry, literature, theater are means to communicate subjective experience.

Science deals with the quantifiable and measurable

When String Theory came out some in science saw it as philosophy because there was no way to test and demonstrate it.


So, Lessans made claims he said were the greatest discoveries ever, but left no procedure on how the rest of us could repeater his discovery.

A physicist told me grad students repeat Milikan's oil drop excitement demonstrating existence of the electron. Anyone can.
 
Of course it much worse than this for @peacegirl. It’s more than just no one being able to reproduce her writer’s daft claims about light and sight. It is that no one should bother to try in the first place, because it is logically impossible for light to take time to travel to the eye yet at the same time be at the eye instantly.
 
Whatever is seen by the eyes is relayed back to the brain for categorization and integration. ... The eyes inform the brain by connecting the object seen with the word that identifies it.
By that reckoning, nothing seen by the eyes informs the brain before the word(s) necessary for categorization are learned. And, yet, there is this:
As my granddaughter’s eyes are focused on one of our canine friends, I shall repeat the word “dog” rapidly in her ear. When she turns away, I stop. This will be repeated until she looks for him when hearing the word, which indicates that a relation between this particular sound and object has been established
In order for the relation between the word and an object to be established, it is necessary that the object be seen initially by/through the eyes so that information about the seen object can then get relayed to the brain in order that the categorizing might take place.

Seeing precedes categorizing and necessarily so - according to Lessans' own explanation.

Seeing has to occur before the ability to conceptualize has developed and so that the ability to categorize visualizations can develop.

The eyes provide information to the brain before there is any language capability and before the ability to verbally categorize is established. Light traverses and, thereby, makes it possible for information to traverse to the brain (not the other way around), such that "instant vision" means nothing other than we see a thing when we see it, although our seeing occurs after light from the seen object travels through the eyes and is afterwards conveyed as information to - and usable by - the brain.

Even after the language capability develops, light and information travel through the eyes to the brain where previously learned categorization techniques affect interpretations regarding what is seen. There is no reason and no need to believe that the brain peers out through the eyes in order to explain how enculturation and other experienced environmental factors affect interpretation and judgment. The baseless insistence that the brain peers out through the eyes adds no new perspective - no new, valid, or sound perspective - worthy of further consideration.
 
Pg, we have no way to verify your claims. Hence no trust,

"Trust, but verify" is a Russian proverb popularized by U.S. President Ronald Reagan during nuclear disarmament negotiations with the Soviet Union in the 1980s. It means establishing trust in a partnership while maintaining accountability through independent verification. This approach, often used in leadership and security, builds stronger, more transparent relationships.
You shouldn't trust blindly until it's earned.
 
That is the point. Anybody can claim anything.

If Lessans 'saw' something but could not describe it in such a way as others could also have the same experience and reach the same conclusipn then it is more like a religious experience.
How can you check the direction you see? I've asked this before. Scientific theory seems logical, but logic isn't always right. Lessans had a different take on how we see due to conditioning that could not occur any other way than through the projection of words that can be mistaken for reality. The present scientific theory says light bounces off of objects rather than revealing those objects (because of the belief that we are seeing a delayed image --- due to light speed --- which Lessans disputes. There is nothing about Lessans' claim that is impossible, or any more impossible than light with a particular wavelength/frequency traveling for eons before it reaches the eye or a telescope.
Art, music, poetry, literature, theater are means to communicate subjective experience.

Science deals with the quantifiable and measurable
What I am offering is not subjective.
When String Theory came out some in science saw it as philosophy because there was no way to test and demonstrate it.


So, Lessans made claims he said were the greatest discoveries ever, but left no procedure on how the rest of us could repeater his discovery.
This is making me upset. You didn't read the book. You didn't see how this discovery plays out. You are just talking out of the side of your mouth. You can't answer one question: Do you know why man's will is not free? Do you know the other side of the equation? Do you know anything about the new economic system that gives security to everyone? How will income be determined? How will the tax structure work? Do you know how the Great Transition will take place? What will happen to weapons when there is no more war? Who will be the first citizens of this new world? What is the guarantee, and how does it work? Do you know how the medical profession changes so that profit will never be an overriding motive at the expense of patients? Why will carelessness and negligence be virtually eliminated? Do you know how children will be raised? What will dating look like? Why will couples want to stay together until death do they part? Do you know what the educational system will look like?
A physicist told me grad students repeat Milikan's oil drop excitement demonstrating existence of the electron. Anyone can.
As I said earlier, you can't prove determinism through an experiment or by finding it in the brain. The fact that will is not free can be proven empirically since, under the new conditions, a person cannot choose B (to hurt someone) when choice A (not to hurt someone) is the more satisfying or preferable option. If will were free, he could choose to hurt someone despite the prevailing conditions, but it becomes impossible when "greater satisfaction" can take us in only one direction. To repeat: We are checkmated because we cannot choose what is less satisfying when something more satisfying is available, and under the new conditions, it becomes dissatisfying to strike a first blow than not to strike it when there is no justification to strike it. Our conscience won't allow it. This is an invariable law, which means there are no exceptions. The ultimate proof is that each step of the proof is without flaw; therefore, the practical application can't help but work once it is applied on a global scale. Delayed vision has not been proven, even though it appears airtight. It is a theory, and Lessans challenged it.
 
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This is making me upset.

:sadcheer:
You didn't read the book. You didn't see how this discovery plays out. You are just talking out of the side of your mouth. You can't answer one question: Do you know why man's will is not free? Do you know the other side of the equation? Do you know anything about the new economic system that gives security to everyone? Do you know the tax structure? Do you know how the Great Transition will take place? Do you know how the medical profession changes so that profit would never be an overriding motive at the expense of others? Do you know why carelessness will be virtually eliminated? Do you know how children will be raised? Do you know why couples will stay together until death do they part? Do you know what the educational system will look like?

Do you know how it is logically possible for light to be at the eye instantly even as you concede it takes light time to get to the eye?
 

This is making me upset.

:sadcheer:
You didn't read the book. You didn't see how this discovery plays out. You are just talking out of the side of your mouth. You can't answer one question: Do you know why man's will is not free? Do you know the other side of the equation? Do you know anything about the new economic system that gives security to everyone? Do you know the tax structure? Do you know how the Great Transition will take place? Do you know how the medical profession changes so that profit would never be an overriding motive at the expense of others? Do you know why carelessness will be virtually eliminated? Do you know how children will be raised? Do you know why couples will stay together until death do they part? Do you know what the educational system will look like?

Do you know how it is logically possible for light to be at the eye instantly even as you concede it takes light time to get to the eye?
You have a block, Pood. Once again, this is not about distance or time in this version of sight.
 
Whatever is seen by the eyes is relayed back to the brain for categorization and integration. ... The eyes inform the brain by connecting the object seen with the word that identifies it.
By that reckoning, nothing seen by the eyes informs the brain before the word(s) necessary for categorization are learned. And, yet, there is this:
As my granddaughter’s eyes are focused on one of our canine friends, I shall repeat the word “dog” rapidly in her ear. When she turns away, I stop. This will be repeated until she looks for him when hearing the word, which indicates that a relation between this particular sound and object has been established
In order for the relation between the word and an object to be established, it is necessary that the object be seen initially by/through the eyes so that information about the seen object can then get relayed to the brain in order that the categorizing might take place.

Seeing precedes categorizing and necessarily so - according to Lessans' own explanation.

Seeing has to occur before the ability to conceptualize has developed and so that the ability to categorize visualizations can develop.

The eyes provide information to the brain before there is any language capability and before the ability to verbally categorize is established. Light traverses and, thereby, makes it possible for information to traverse to the brain (not the other way around), such that "instant vision" means nothing other than we see a thing when we see it, although our seeing occurs after light from the seen object travels through the eyes and is afterwards conveyed as information to - and usable by - the brain.
You are not saying anything new Michael. You are just repeating the afferent version of sight. Nothing in Lessans' account disputes that we need light to see, and we have to first see before we can conceptualize or categorize what is seen.
Even after the language capability develops, light and information travel through the eyes to the brain where previously learned categorization techniques affect interpretations regarding what is seen. There is no reason and no need to believe that the brain peers out through the eyes in order to explain how enculturation and other experienced environmental factors affect interpretation and judgment. The baseless insistence that the brain peers out through the eyes adds no new perspective - no new, valid, or sound perspective - worthy of further consideration.
Enculturation and other experienced environmental factors affect how we are conditioned to see what is not part of reality. It is a conditioning that only the projection of words (whether true or false) can accomplish, regardless of the culture we're in. The brain and eyes are one entity, so when he said the brain peers out through the eyes, it's not like the brain is separate from the eyes. This new perspective changes everything, and it is absolutely worthy of consideration.
 
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Enculturation and other experienced environmental factors affect how we are conditioned to see what is not part of reality. It is a conditioning that only the projection of words (whether true or false) can accomplish
There is no need to frame the issue in terms of "see" and "projection" - as if the issue at hand is necessarily related to the nature of light as efferent or afferent and as if only vision among the senses is relevant to human conditioning.

You can de-frame (so to speak), your comment by saying, for instance: "Enculturation and other experienced environmental factors affect how we are conditioned to respond to what is not part of reality. It is a conditioning that only the use of words (whether true or false) can accomplish".

There are other changes which could improve further that statement, but that involves matters other than the light/vision issue which has been the focus in this discussion.
 
Enculturation and other experienced environmental factors affect how we are conditioned to see what is not part of reality. It is a conditioning that only the projection of words (whether true or false) can accomplish
There is no need to frame the issue in terms of "see" and "projection" - as if the issue at hand is necessarily related to the nature of light as efferent or afferent and as if only vision among the senses is relevant to human conditioning.
But "seeing" and "projection" are central to this issue of conditioning.
You can de-frame (so to speak), your comment by saying, for instance: "Enculturation and other experienced environmental factors affect how we are conditioned to respond to what is not part of reality. It is a conditioning that only the use of words (whether true or false) can accomplish".
I'm not sure where that helps when you add "to respond to what is not part of reality." The last sentence I could have made: We are conditioned due to the projection of words that do not always symbolize reality, because the brain cannot tell the difference.
There are other changes which could improve further that statement, but that involves matters other than the light/vision issue which has been the focus in this discussion.
I'm always open to better sentence structures that don't change the concept.
 
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