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“Revolution in Thought: A new look at determinism and free will"

I have made precise observations and with certainty I say the Sun goes around the Earth.

To hell with science I say! They are all dogmatic fools!
People have been wrong in their observations; that is true, but this doesn't mean Lessans must have been wrong because others were wrong.
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Throughout history, there has always been this skepticism before certain events were proven true. It is only natural to be skeptical, but this is never a sufficient reason to exclude the possibility of a scientific miracle. You may reason that many people have been positive that they were right, but it turned out they were wrong, so couldn’t I also be positive and wrong? There is a fallacious standard hidden in this reasoning. Because others were positive and wrong, I could be wrong because I am positive. The first astronomer who observed the mathematical laws inherent in the solar system that enabled him to predict an eclipse was positive and right, as was the space scientist who foretold that one day man would land on the moon. Edison, when he first discovered the electric bulb, was positive and right. Einstein, when he revealed the potential of atomic energy, was positive and right — and so were many other scientists — but they proved that they were right with an undeniable demonstration, which is what I am doing. If my demonstration doesn’t prove me right, then and only then am I wrong. There is quite a difference between being positive or dogmatic over knowledge that is questionable and being positive over something that is undeniable, such as two plus two equals four. Just bear in mind how many times in the course of history the impossible (that which appeared to be) has been made possible by scientific discoveries, which should make you desire to contain your skepticism enough to investigate what this is all about.
Pg
electromagnetic energy (i.e., photons) have within them the reflective light of the object that will travel and eventually be interpreted as an image in the brain.
The optimal image is the patterns of photons created by interacting with an object.

Again. Imagine a still pond with a vertical stick stuck in the bottom going above the surface, Drop a rock in the pond and ripples expand in a circle. When the ripples hit the stick thy interact with the stick and form patterns in the ripples. The disturbance in the circular ripples past the stick containn an 'image' of the stick.

The water molecules are dumb. Meaning of the pasterns around hte stick are what we retainer them as.

Imagine that in 3D and you get an idea of how an optical image is formed by light refection off an object.
Where does this disprove real-time vision? Patterns exist. That is why we can see an object in real time, due to its pattern on the retina. It's just that the pattern doesn't continue beyond the inverse square law.
 
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Pg
That is a pretty good map of light traveling and the present belief as to how sight works, but nothing in that diagram explains how the eyes work. There is no proof that nerve signals reach the brain and become images, which is the main argument.

Rods and cones on retina connected to nerves, nerves running to a region of the brain. Signals on the optic nerves run one way, eye to brain.Rods ad cones cones convert photons to electrons. You might just as well argue against photosynthesis in plants

We know damage in the area of the brain where optic nerves go causes vision problems.
I am not debating any of this. Every part of the eye is necessary for sight. The only difference is the mechanism of how these structures are used in light of real-time vision. It doesn't remove them. Every part of the eye and brain is essential, including memory.
I had a temporary speech aphasia from a subdural hematoma. Fluid acculturation put pressure on the speech enter of my brain.

You can search for specific studies. Fairly old news.
I can understand that. Anything that interferes with a particular part of the brain, due to a lack of blood supply, would cause a serious problem. Thank goodness yours was resolved.
Imaging the brain's response to visual stimuli involves techniques like functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI) and electroencephalography (EEG) to map activation in the visual cortex and higher-order areas. Visual stimuli typically trigger responses in the primary visual cortex (V1), moving through areas V2-V4 for feature detection (color, orientation) and into the ventral stream for object recognition.

MRI can show which areas of the brain are invoked for different kinds of stimulus.

I watched a neuroscientist talk about an experiment. He ran MRIs on theists while contemplating god and paraying to see which areas of the brain increased activity.
It's really fascinating what neuroscience is learning about the brain, but so far, nothing has pinpointed a location in the brain where images are formed in delayed time.
You are arguing from an apriori assumption Lessans is right without evidence.

Visual images are foamed tin the visual cortex. Your chronic argument that science does not explain vision is patently false. It does not add credence to your claims.
We know that the visual cortex is the vision center of the brain, but neuroscientists do not explain how the visual cortex works other than by theorizing what they think is happening.
It is like a Creationist argument.
Steve, you are so off the mark, I don't know how to convince you. THERE IS EVIDENCE, but maybe not to your satisfaction. More tests can be done. I'm not here to fool you. I am challenging beliefs that you have carried for decades.
You use the same kind of argument.

Theists will argue both science and Chrtianity are faith based. Belief science works is as much a faith as religion. So, region is as valid as scienc
False equivalence?
Religion is not science.

For the first time, the members of a congregation, realizing that God is everywhere, not just in churches and synagogues, and realizing further that all evil is coming to a permanent end, will prefer spending their money in a different direction. Religion will be reluctant to give up the pivotal role it has played for thousands of years, but how is it possible for these theologians to object to the very things they have been unsuccessfully trying to accomplish without revealing that they don’t want mankind to be delivered from all evil? This does not mean that religion has not served an important function in man’s development. We could not have reached this turning point had it not been for our religious institutions, but we are at last shedding the final stage of the rocket that has given mankind its thrust up to this point. The great humor and the very reason religion could never approve of this work, despite its purpose, is because it would be forced to relinquish what has always been a source of tremendous satisfaction There is something else that annoys religion because it expects the Messiah to look like Christ or some other historical figure, and that he will come to Earth not through ordinary channels.

Someone who would claim to have solved the problem of evil could easily be mistaken for a false prophet or even the antichrist. It may be difficult for the faithful to entertain the idea that the promised Messiah may not come in bodily form but rather as a divine law which has the power to prevent what manmade laws and institutions could never accomplish. To some, this suggestion may be viewed as an unpardonable offense because it appears blasphemous. It may be impossible for those who adhere to the literal translation of the Bible, or any other sacred text, to consider the possibility that peace might come through an unexpected source, although still in accordance with God’s will. Even if I had never made this discovery, it would have come to light sooner or later because what is revealed is a definite part of the real world, not a figment of the imagination. Science will have to take the lead in affirming the accuracy of these principles before they can be applied worldwide. The truth will be very easy to convey once it is understood and acknowledged by scientists because it involves undeniable relations such as two plus two equals four, but when people have been taught for centuries that man’s will is free and the eyes are a sense organ, it becomes more difficult to break through these beliefs since the long tenure of preempted authority has confused opinions with facts and dogmatically closed the door to further investigation. However, when theologians fully realize that not only were they teaching something false and that God’s will, the truth, was hidden behind a different door, but that their standard of living will be permanently guaranteed even though they step down from the pulpit, we will very quickly get their cooperation in attaining this sonic boom.
Same type of claims with creation science. It is as sound and objective as physics.

Yo0u argue that Lessans subjective observations and interpretations without evidence is as objective as science, which it is not.

Lessans wrote his ideas are true with scientific and mathematical certainty.
You're all washed up, Steve. He was very precise in his observations and his description of how we become conditioned. You have no idea where his observations originated, or why he made this claim in the first place.
Hmm .. could that be hyperbole?
No hyperbole.
Your postings collectively have a religious like tone.
Maybe you're not used to his style of writing, but a religious tone? NOT.:thumbdown:
A dead guru-master who left behind cryptic profound revelations. Belief will save the world. A high priest/priestess interprets, perches, and guides to the truth. Watch out for the evil naysayers who deny the truth of the dead master.


Historically formulaic.
I don't know whether to laugh or cry. 😆:cry:

You have been proselytizing on the net for over a decade. In your own words if you could just get one person to believe.

I am not an expert in religion in mythology and religion but you do fit a pattern.

You have and present a mythical image of Lessans. You have a scripture you quote as the unassailable truth. Lessans was prophetic, the world will come to his way of thinking in 40 tears.
 
Pg
electromagnetic energy (i.e., photons) have within them the reflective light of the object that will travel and eventually be interpreted as an image in the brain.
The optimal image is the patterns of photons created by interacting with an object.

Again. Imagine a still pond with a vertical stick stuck in the bottom going above the surface, Drop a rock in the pond and ripples expand in a circle. When the ripples hit the stick thy interact with the stick and form patterns in the ripples. The disturbance in the circular ripples past the stick containn an 'image' of the stick.

The water molecules are dumb. Meaning of the pasterns around hte stick are what we retainer them as.

Imagine that in 3D and you get an idea of how an optical image is formed by light refection off an object.
Where does this disprove real-time vision? Patterns exist. That is why we can see an object in real time, due to its pattern on the retina. It's just that the pattern doesn't continue past what the inverse square law allows.
It refutes everything you say about optics, light, and vision.

Light has finite speed, light reflecting off object creates the 'inage;, image arrives at eye with a delay.
 
Hey, peacegirl, remember this? It was first presented to you at least 15 years ago!
There is nothing here that conflicts with real-time vision because the speed of light has nothing to do with his claim. Back to the drawing board. :unsure:

The drawing board doesn't permit instant vision. The drawing board support physics, where light has a finite speed and takes time to travel between its source and the eyes.
You are completely stuck in a rut. I don't think it's possible to help you understand that this version violates nothing.
 
Pg
That is a pretty good map of light traveling and the present belief as to how sight works, but nothing in that diagram explains how the eyes work. There is no proof that nerve signals reach the brain and become images, which is the main argument.

Rods and cones on retina connected to nerves, nerves running to a region of the brain. Signals on the optic nerves run one way, eye to brain.Rods ad cones cones convert photons to electrons. You might just as well argue against photosynthesis in plants

We know damage in the area of the brain where optic nerves go causes vision problems.
I am not debating any of this. Every part of the eye is necessary for sight. The only difference is the mechanism of how these structures are used in light of real-time vision. It doesn't remove them. Every part of the eye and brain is essential, including memory.
I had a temporary speech aphasia from a subdural hematoma. Fluid acculturation put pressure on the speech enter of my brain.

You can search for specific studies. Fairly old news.
I can understand that. Anything that interferes with a particular part of the brain, due to a lack of blood supply, would cause a serious problem. Thank goodness yours was resolved.
Imaging the brain's response to visual stimuli involves techniques like functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI) and electroencephalography (EEG) to map activation in the visual cortex and higher-order areas. Visual stimuli typically trigger responses in the primary visual cortex (V1), moving through areas V2-V4 for feature detection (color, orientation) and into the ventral stream for object recognition.

MRI can show which areas of the brain are invoked for different kinds of stimulus.

I watched a neuroscientist talk about an experiment. He ran MRIs on theists while contemplating god and paraying to see which areas of the brain increased activity.
It's really fascinating what neuroscience is learning about the brain, but so far, nothing has pinpointed a location in the brain where images are formed in delayed time.
You are arguing from an apriori assumption Lessans is right without evidence.

Visual images are foamed tin the visual cortex. Your chronic argument that science does not explain vision is patently false. It does not add credence to your claims.
We know that the visual cortex is the vision center of the brain, but neuroscientists do not explain how the visual cortex works other than by theorizing what they think is happening.
It is like a Creationist argument.
Steve, you are so off the mark, I don't know how to convince you. THERE IS EVIDENCE, but maybe not to your satisfaction. More tests can be done. I'm not here to fool you. I am challenging beliefs that you have carried for decades.
You use the same kind of argument.

Theists will argue both science and Chrtianity are faith based. Belief science works is as much a faith as religion. So, region is as valid as scienc
False equivalence?
Religion is not science.

For the first time, the members of a congregation, realizing that God is everywhere, not just in churches and synagogues, and realizing further that all evil is coming to a permanent end, will prefer spending their money in a different direction. Religion will be reluctant to give up the pivotal role it has played for thousands of years, but how is it possible for these theologians to object to the very things they have been unsuccessfully trying to accomplish without revealing that they don’t want mankind to be delivered from all evil? This does not mean that religion has not served an important function in man’s development. We could not have reached this turning point had it not been for our religious institutions, but we are at last shedding the final stage of the rocket that has given mankind its thrust up to this point. The great humor and the very reason religion could never approve of this work, despite its purpose, is because it would be forced to relinquish what has always been a source of tremendous satisfaction There is something else that annoys religion because it expects the Messiah to look like Christ or some other historical figure, and that he will come to Earth not through ordinary channels.

Someone who would claim to have solved the problem of evil could easily be mistaken for a false prophet or even the antichrist. It may be difficult for the faithful to entertain the idea that the promised Messiah may not come in bodily form but rather as a divine law which has the power to prevent what manmade laws and institutions could never accomplish. To some, this suggestion may be viewed as an unpardonable offense because it appears blasphemous. It may be impossible for those who adhere to the literal translation of the Bible, or any other sacred text, to consider the possibility that peace might come through an unexpected source, although still in accordance with God’s will. Even if I had never made this discovery, it would have come to light sooner or later because what is revealed is a definite part of the real world, not a figment of the imagination. Science will have to take the lead in affirming the accuracy of these principles before they can be applied worldwide. The truth will be very easy to convey once it is understood and acknowledged by scientists because it involves undeniable relations such as two plus two equals four, but when people have been taught for centuries that man’s will is free and the eyes are a sense organ, it becomes more difficult to break through these beliefs since the long tenure of preempted authority has confused opinions with facts and dogmatically closed the door to further investigation. However, when theologians fully realize that not only were they teaching something false and that God’s will, the truth, was hidden behind a different door, but that their standard of living will be permanently guaranteed even though they step down from the pulpit, we will very quickly get their cooperation in attaining this sonic boom.
Same type of claims with creation science. It is as sound and objective as physics.

Yo0u argue that Lessans subjective observations and interpretations without evidence is as objective as science, which it is not.

Lessans wrote his ideas are true with scientific and mathematical certainty.
You're all washed up, Steve. He was very precise in his observations and his description of how we become conditioned. You have no idea where his observations originated, or why he made this claim in the first place.
Hmm .. could that be hyperbole?
No hyperbole.
Your postings collectively have a religious like tone.
Maybe you're not used to his style of writing, but a religious tone? NOT.:thumbdown:
A dead guru-master who left behind cryptic profound revelations. Belief will save the world. A high priest/priestess interprets, perches, and guides to the truth. Watch out for the evil naysayers who deny the truth of the dead master.


Historically formulaic.
I don't know whether to laugh or cry. 😆:cry:

You have been proselytizing on the net for over a decade. In your own words if you could just get one person to believe.
I am not an expert in religion in mythology and religion but you do fit a pattern.
Who cares. I was compiling his work for 20 years. I went on forums during that time to share it, but it backfired. It's not about belief, Steve. Why in the world would you need to have others say they believe it -- as some kind of proof -- unless you were relying on them to explain what you obviously can't? Lessans would never have made this discovery if he had depended on others to agree with him


You have and present a mythical image of Lessans.
He was a human being who had an intellectual capacity that could match any philosopher of ancient times. Why should that be a surprise?
You have a scripture you quote as the unassailable truth. Lessans was prophetic, the world will come to his way of thinking in 40 tears.
It was a prophecy in the Bible. It wasn't his prophecy. You can't even read what was written when it's right in front of you.
 
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That may explain the lack of structure and form in the book. No coherent them or focus. A collection of unconnected thoughts.
 
Hey, peacegirl, remember this? It was first presented to you at least 15 years ago!
There is nothing here that conflicts with real-time vision because the speed of light has nothing to do with his claim. Back to the drawing board. :unsure:
Sure there is. If he saw Io in real time, the discreapancy he noted could not have existed; Io would be seen at the same predicted point in its orbit regardless of how far from Earth it was.
Jupiter's Io experiment is considered to be the only interpretation possible. But if Lessans is right (and I say "if" for your benefit), then there may be another reason for the delay that has nothing to do with the speed of light.
If there is another reason for the delay, then that "other reason" exists regardless of how wrong Lessans might be.
I don't see where the delay proved that we see in delayed time. They were able to figure out the speed of light based on his experiment due to the delay, but the idea that this meant we were seeing the Io moon in delayed time is pure conjecture.
And equally, IF that reason exists, it should be easily measurable; We are talking about a discrepancy of some seventeen minutes over six months here. And it would not be expected to just coincidentally match up with every other way we have of measuring lightspeed (including such things as observations of Saturn's moons or Mars's, which display the exact same phenomenon).

Tidal effects are truly irrelevant here. Io is tidally locked, so the effect on orbital period is small, despite the eccentricity and seismological impacts which are notable and in the latter case, very impressive.

Worse still for your case, the orbital eccentricity of Io is now very precisely known, and when the variations in orbital period this causes are accounted for, the estimate of lightspeed we derive is even more accurate - allowing for these effects does not undermine the result, but rather gives it more support.
That makes sense. I am glad the experiment was able to be used to support how fast light travels.
It also brings into question whether the speed of light, based on his computations, was accurate.
.
No, it really doesn't. It is known to have been fairly inaccurate, though it was in the right ballpark; And the reasons for that are not only well known, but are given in the article @pood provided, and that is linked in the very first post in the quote-chain (above).

Of course, Roemer was the FIRST to use this technique, but was far from the last, and further observations using far better equipment than was available in the C17th have been made, confirming that his methodology was sound.

You are falling into your well worn rut of taking something you know nothing about, asking Bing a loaded question about it, and then misinterpreting the answer (which you don't seem to have read, or at least don't seem to have understood) as support for your beliefs.

That this is a spectacularly poor way to find out anything about anything, should be obvious to anyone with a primary school level grasp of science; So I am not surprised that you are utterly and pathetically unaware of just how dumb you are being when you do it.
I'm not trying to ask Bing a loaded question and then misinterpret the answer.
Then what you are trying to do does not reflect what you are actually doing.
Once again, the problem isn't the accuracy of the speed of light. It is the belief that, as a result of the speed of light, we are seeing Io in delayed time. These are two different phenomena. I have said this all along. In the same vein, we see the moon in real time, even though it takes 1.3 seconds for its light to travel to Earth.
I am trying to work through the claim of afferent vision in light of Lessans' claim. He made this claim from a different angle entirely.
From the angle of not having a clue?
He had important clues.
If he was right about his observations (which you have not disproved),
I so have. His "observations" are logically impossible, and fail to predict any of a range of observations available to all, while implying to be false many observations that are demonstrably true.
I don't think his claim is logically impossible if you understand that light is a necessary condition. This isn't magic or teleportation.
I shouldn't have to prove that certain astronomical calculations are false.
You don't have to. You could simply drop your belief in Lessans' idiotic claims; Or you could choose to be wrong. Both are alternative options for you.
I would never do that because I know (believe :rolleyes:) that he was right. It has important implications for our world.
That wasn't his job either. I have said over and over that he was not an astronomer, but, again, that doesn't automatically make his observations inaccurate.
What fucking observations? He has CLAIMS. He has CONJECTURES. He has NO OBSERVATIONS.

You don't even know what the word means, and nor did he.
They were observations. Maybe they were not physical observations, but observations, nevertheless.
That is why I said it's a category error because he is discussing how the brain and eyes work, and everyone else is discussing how light works.
The eyes work by detecting light.

Discussion of the eyes necessarily entails discussion of light.

Even you, with your nutty "light has to be at the eye" incomplete conjecture, agree that light is directly necessary for sight.
True, but he was not disputing anything about light or its properties. That is not how he came to his finding.
His claim does not violate physics or the speed of light.
Yes, it absolutely does.
No one seems interested in understanding his observations or his reasoning therefrom.
That's because they cannot be understood. They fly in the face of logic and reason, and understanding is not an option. Belief is always an option, people believe incoherent nonsense all the time. But belief not only does not require understanding, it actively rejects it.
He was the first to say you can deny anything you want if it is not understood.
They just want to claim that he is wrong so they claim that they are right.
No, I claim he is wrong because he is demonstrably wrong. Even if I too were wildly wrong, he wouldn't be, and couldn't be, right.
He is not demonstrably wrong because you believe he couldn't be right. That is because you still believe there is a gap between seeing in real time and receiving the image in delayed time.
They both can't be right. The verdict is still out whether you think so or not.
That's obvious. He is wrong, so either they are both wrong, or just Lessans is.

Either way, he remains wrong.
Either way, he remains right. :shrug:
 
That may explain the lack of structure and form in the book. No coherent them or focus. A collection of unconnected thoughts.
Say something helpful, or I'm giving up on you.

 
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