Presidential vapor in Hiroshima....

[Loren Pechtel]

How U.S. Economic Warfare Provoked Japan’s Attack on Pearl Harbor

Accordingly, the Roosevelt administration, while curtly dismissing Japanese diplomatic overtures to harmonize relations, imposed a series of increasingly stringent economic sanctions on Japan. In 1939 the United States terminated the 1911 commercial treaty with Japan. “On July 2, 1940, Roosevelt signed the Export Control Act, authorizing the President to license or prohibit the export of essential defense materials.” Under this authority, “[o]n July 31, exports of aviation motor fuels and lubricants and No. 1 heavy melting iron and steel scrap were restricted.” Next, in a move aimed at Japan, Roosevelt slapped an embargo, effective October 16, “on all exports of scrap iron and steel to destinations other than Britain and the nations of the Western Hemisphere.” Finally, on July 26, 1941, Roosevelt “froze Japanese assets in the United States, thus bringing commercial relations between the nations to an effective end. One week later Roosevelt embargoed the export of such grades of oil as still were in commercial flow to Japan.”[2] The British and the Dutch followed suit, embargoing exports to Japan from their colonies in southeast Asia.

http://www.independent.org/newsroom/article.asp?id=1930

A refusal to sell them the war materials they wanted is not a reason to attack us.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Is that why?

Who told you this?

If the US was so opposed to atrocities why did it carry out one of the worst atrocities in history in Vietnam and Cambodia and Laos?

In other words, simply declare inconvenient facts to be false.

 

[untermensche]

Accordingly, the Roosevelt administration, while curtly dismissing Japanese diplomatic overtures to harmonize relations, imposed a series of increasingly stringent economic sanctions on Japan. In 1939 the United States terminated the 1911 commercial treaty with Japan. “On July 2, 1940, Roosevelt signed the Export Control Act, authorizing the President to license or prohibit the export of essential defense materials.” Under this authority, “[o]n July 31, exports of aviation motor fuels and lubricants and No. 1 heavy melting iron and steel scrap were restricted.” Next, in a move aimed at Japan, Roosevelt slapped an embargo, effective October 16, “on all exports of scrap iron and steel to destinations other than Britain and the nations of the Western Hemisphere.” Finally, on July 26, 1941, Roosevelt “froze Japanese assets in the United States, thus bringing commercial relations between the nations to an effective end. One week later Roosevelt embargoed the export of such grades of oil as still were in commercial flow to Japan.”[2] The British and the Dutch followed suit, embargoing exports to Japan from their colonies in southeast Asia.

http://www.independent.org/newsroom/article.asp?id=1930

A refusal to sell them the war materials they wanted is not a reason to attack us.

War materials are just normal economic materials like oil and steel.

Calling them war materials when they were also essential economic materials is a weak argument.

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Is that why?

Who told you this?

If the US was so opposed to atrocities why did it carry out one of the worst atrocities in history in Vietnam and Cambodia and Laos?

In other words, simply declare inconvenient facts to be false.

Who told you they were facts?

They are your fables and fantasies.

 

[ZiprHead]

What the hell did we do that can compare to The Holocaust or the Rape of Nanking?

Deliberately kill millions. Mostly civilians.

According to wiki, the number of civilians killed by both sides in the Vietnam war (Laos and Cambodia included) was 587,000.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

To be fair, the Japanese did not force the US to drop an atomic bomb. We made a deliberate choice, fully aware of the extensive damage to civilians that an atomic bomb. And, after dropping the first one, we gave them little time before we dropped the second one. While the USA need not be apologetic for its actions, especially towards a nation that still refuses to apologize for its WWII atrocities, the USA still bears the responsibility for its choices.

And I note you object to the lack of a way to disarmament--ignoring the fact that in today's world that isn't an option. There's no way you can make the various black hats in the world disarm, all that disarmament will do is turn us into victims of them.

You want to bow down to ISIS?

ISIS does not have nuclear weapons, so what on earth are you babbling about?

If he has his way they'll end up with them.

 

[untermensche]

Deliberately kill millions. Mostly civilians.

According to wiki, the number of civilians killed by both sides in the Vietnam war (Laos and Cambodia included) was 587,000.

No that is an estimated total only for Vietnam. And a low estimate.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

What the hell did we do that can compare to The Holocaust or the Rape of Nanking?

Deliberately kill millions. Mostly civilians.

You realize the part of the war with the most civilian deaths was the Japanese invasion of China?

 

[Ford]

And no doubt he'd be turned in by one of the many Japanese visitors who come to pay their respects.

Maybe not. The Japanese have some funny peccadilloes, if their porn is anything by which to judge. However, the last time I was there, about half the visitors were veterans and their families. The atmosphere is quite charged. Most people are speechless, those who can speak, whisper, and the rest are fighting tears.

The ride to the Arizona is after watching a documentary, which includes footage of the Arizona leaping out of the water and breaking in half. The experience gives a person glasses with 1941 corrective lens, which give a clear view that whatever happened to the Japanese after December 7, 1941, was on them.

Oh, I've been there. I was on vacation on the island with my daughter, who'd got it into her head that she wanted to visit Pearl Harbor. She was a teenager at the time, and I think she thought it was going to be something like the crappy Ben Affleck movie. Well that didn't last. Somewhere I've got a picture I snuck of her staring at the wall with all the names. She was very quiet the rest of the day, and I'm very glad she got to see it, and understood what it was.

The time we were there, though, there were a lot of Japanese on the Memorial.

 

[untermensche]

Deliberately kill millions. Mostly civilians.

You realize the part of the war with the most civilian deaths was the Japanese invasion of China?

How is that relevant to US atrocities in Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos?

 

[ZiprHead]

According to wiki, the number of civilians killed by both sides in the Vietnam war (Laos and Cambodia included) was 587,000.

No that is an estimated total only for Vietnam. And a low estimate.

Quote from Wiki where I got the numbers.: "Estimates of casualties in the Vietnam War vary widely. Estimates include both civilian and military deaths in North and South Vietnam, Laos, and Cambodia."

 

[Ford]

You realize the part of the war with the most civilian deaths was the Japanese invasion of China?

How is that relevant to US atrocities in Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos?

This thread is about WWII, and in this thread a couple people seem to be locked into the idea that Japan was a peaceful nation that was dragged kicking and screaming into a war they didn't want, and certainly never brutally massacred hundreds of thousands of civilians.

 

[untermensche]

How is that relevant to US atrocities in Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos?

This thread is about WWII, and in this thread a couple people seem to be locked into the idea that Japan was a peaceful nation that was dragged kicking and screaming into a war they didn't want, and certainly never brutally massacred hundreds of thousands of civilians.

But he directly quoted my comment about Vietnam, Cambodia, and Laos.

Japan was an imperial nation. No different from the US. No better. No worse.

 

[ZiprHead]

How is that relevant to US atrocities in Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos?

This thread is about WWII, and in this thread a couple people seem to be locked into the idea that Japan was a peaceful nation that was dragged kicking and screaming into a war they didn't want, and certainly never brutally massacred hundreds of thousands of civilians.

Deaths of Chinese in WWII ranges from 7 to 8 million civilians (not including those caused by famine.).

 

[untermensche]

No that is an estimated total only for Vietnam. And a low estimate.

Quote from Wiki where I got the numbers.: "Estimates of casualties in the Vietnam War vary widely. Estimates include both civilian and military deaths in North and South Vietnam, Laos, and Cambodia."

And they also say the figure you gave only pertained to North and South Vietnam.

This is the way imperial powers do it.

They don't count their victims or apologize for their crimes.

 

[ZiprHead]

Quote from Wiki where I got the numbers.: "Estimates of casualties in the Vietnam War vary widely. Estimates include both civilian and military deaths in North and South Vietnam, Laos, and Cambodia."

And they also say the figure you gave only pertained to North and South Vietnam.

This is the way imperial powers do it.

They don't count their victims or apologize for their crimes.

Again,

Estimates include both civilian and military deaths in North and South Vietnam, Laos, and Cambodia.

 

[Ford]

Japan was an imperial nation. No different from the US. No better. No worse.

Your attempt to derail the thread aside, I find it fascinating that you have such disdain for the evil US Imperial Nation here, while in your Sanders-defending threads you heap praise upon the American Emperor at the time, His Majesty Franklin Delano Roosevelt.

 

[untermensche]

And they also say the figure you gave only pertained to North and South Vietnam.

This is the way imperial powers do it.

They don't count their victims or apologize for their crimes.

Again,

Estimates include both civilian and military deaths in North and South Vietnam, Laos, and Cambodia.

From the article.

North and South Vietnam.

And this is just from 1965. US bombing of South Vietnam began in 1962.

 

[untermensche]

Japan was an imperial nation. No different from the US. No better. No worse.

Your attempt to derail the thread aside, I find it fascinating that you have such disdain for the evil US Imperial Nation here, while in your Sanders-defending threads you heap praise upon the American Emperor at the time, His Majesty Franklin Delano Roosevelt.

I called Vietnam imperialism. Not WWII.

Try to keep up.

 

[Ford]

Your attempt to derail the thread aside, I find it fascinating that you have such disdain for the evil US Imperial Nation here, while in your Sanders-defending threads you heap praise upon the American Emperor at the time, His Majesty Franklin Delano Roosevelt.

I called Vietnam imperialism. Not WWII.

Try to keep up.

Did you not declare that the war between the US and Japan was all Roosevelt's fault? Because unless you've just edited your post I can quote you.

 

[ZiprHead]

I find the wiki article vague then. Because it clearly states at the beginning that the numbers include civilian casualties in Laos and Cambodia. If you have numbers for those nations, bring them.

You know what? Forget it. This is clearly an off topic tangent. If you would like to complete the task and come up with number, I suggest starting another thread. I still don't think they will come anywhere near the civilian casualties suffered at the hands of the Germans and the Japanese.

Frankly, I am sympathetic to your cause. I hate it when my nation gets involved in stupid, senseless wars. WWII and the nuclear bombing of Japan is not one of them.